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The Ring magazine has Manny, Floyd, and Shane ranked 1,2, and 3 respectively and the number 2 and 3 will be fighting each other in May. Does the winner become the new p4p number 1 and Manny gets pushed to number 2?
Yes, p4p is subjective just like all rankings, but in my eyes the winner of this upcoming fight should be p4p #1.
You could make a good case for it, but I would leave Manny at #1
Floyd does.
Depends how dominating the win is i believe. If Floyd edges past Mosley then maybe not but if he wins in a lopsided fashion 'd say he'd have to be number 1.
I guess it depends on if you feel the winner's recent victories and the way in which they accomplished them are more impressive than Pacquiao's victories over Hatton, Cotto, and Clottey.
If Mosley wins I might be inclined to place him at #1 (not that it would matter for long since he and Pacquiao would soon meet to decide who was best), but if Pacquiao convincingly beats Clottey I would have a hard time placing Mayweather ahead of him.
Good call, I forgot to factor in how dominating the performance should be. If the winner of the Floyd-Mosley fight just wins by a close decision than Manny stays, but if it's a dominating performance he should be #1 imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
I think that if Mosley wins a close but clear decision over Floyd he deserves some consideration for the #1 P4P spot. It's very debatable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogGood call, I forgot to factor in how dominating the performance should be. If the winner of the Floyd-Mosley fight just wins by a close decision than Manny stays, but if it's a dominating performance he should be #1 imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
So if Floyd dominates Shane he doesnt deserve to be P4P #1?Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI think that if Mosley wins a close but clear decision over Floyd he deserves some consideration for the #1 P4P spot. It's very debatable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogGood call, I forgot to factor in how dominating the performance should be. If the winner of the Floyd-Mosley fight just wins by a close decision than Manny stays, but if it's a dominating performance he should be #1 imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
No, I don't think he does. I would argue that Pacquiao's last three victories (Hatton, Cotto, Clottey [assuming he beats Clottey without controversy]) are more impressive than Marquez (the blown-up version Mayweather fought) and Mosley. Pacquiao dominated Hatton and Cotto and if he does the same to Clottey I don't think there is anyway I could argue that Mayweather deserves to be above him on a P4P list. That being said, I do think Mayweather is a better fighter, but his recent resume is lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagleSo if Floyd dominates Shane he doesnt deserve to be P4P #1?Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI think that if Mosley wins a close but clear decision over Floyd he deserves some consideration for the #1 P4P spot. It's very debatable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I tcan see how you would think that Pac was still more deserving than PBF, but im not sure how u can then say Shane would be more deserving than Pac. I mean here is a man who went 12 hard rounds with Mayorga 2 fights ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHNo, I don't think he does. I would argue that Pacquiao's last three victories (Hatton, Cotto, Clottey [assuming he beats Clottey without controversy]) are more impressive than Marquez (the blown-up version Mayweather fought) and Mosley. Pacquiao dominated Hatton and Cotto and if he does the same to Clottey I don't think there is anyway I could argue that Mayweather deserves to be above him on a P4P list. That being said, I do think Mayweather is a better fighter, but his recent resume is lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagleSo if Floyd dominates Shane he doesnt deserve to be P4P #1?Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
I base my argument for Mosley to be P4P #1 on his dominating upset victory over Margarito and his hypothetical upset win over Mayweather (which would be exponentially bigger than the Margarito victory, obviously). Mayweather is a better fighter than anyone Pacquiao has ever faced and a victory over him, by however slim a margin, combined with the Margarito knock out would edge wins over Hatton, Cotto, and Clottey IMO. If Mosley wins, which he won't, it would all be moot as he would certainly face Pacquiao in his next fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagleI tcan see how you would think that Pac was still more deserving than PBF, but im not sure how u can then say Shane would be more deserving than Pac. I mean here is a man who went 12 hard rounds with Mayorga 2 fights ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHNo, I don't think he does. I would argue that Pacquiao's last three victories (Hatton, Cotto, Clottey [assuming he beats Clottey without controversy]) are more impressive than Marquez (the blown-up version Mayweather fought) and Mosley. Pacquiao dominated Hatton and Cotto and if he does the same to Clottey I don't think there is anyway I could argue that Mayweather deserves to be above him on a P4P list. That being said, I do think Mayweather is a better fighter, but his recent resume is lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
Are not P4P ranking is based on the hypothetical, the best fighter disregarding weight class? That would mean comparing Ring generalship, Boxing skill; offensive and defensive, style match, strength to an extent, endurance level, chin and effect aggression. The more fights a boxer has the more the hypothetical match-ups can be compared.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
Yes, quality of opposition is definitely a factor, but it is only 1 factor.
Considering that they plugged Mayweather in at the #2 spot for beating JMM, I think they'd put him at #1 if he beats Mosley (even if Pacquiao wins).
If both win, the only way I can see Pacquiao holding onto the ranking is if he beats Clottey in a dominating fashion & Floyd struggles with Mosley down to the wire.
Other than that, the p4p title isn't like a belt where you have to beat the man to take his spot. Beating the #3 ranked guy is way better than beating the #20+ ranked guy.
The winner of Mosely vs Mayweather becomes the No1 Welterweight. Balls to P4P........ I think we should just put that category to bed now.......
I can see where you are coming from but I feel that regardless of the outcome none has done enough to oust Manny as no. 1 - they will need to face him first (or Clottey do a number on him !)
Had Manny been in a division where there was no chance of the winners meeting then I think you would defo be right and the winner of this would become number 1.
But he isn't ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark TKO
Are you sure about that??
You might be right, once he's clean. ;D
More or less, that sums up pretty well what I think too. PAcman last opponents and fashion to blow them are more impressive (for the moment) than what Mayweather did accomplish in the past few fights and let'S include the fact that Mayweather has been 1 1/2 year off doing nothing in the meantime.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHNo, I don't think he does. I would argue that Pacquiao's last three victories (Hatton, Cotto, Clottey [assuming he beats Clottey without controversy]) are more impressive than Marquez (the blown-up version Mayweather fought) and Mosley. Pacquiao dominated Hatton and Cotto and if he does the same to Clottey I don't think there is anyway I could argue that Mayweather deserves to be above him on a P4P list. That being said, I do think Mayweather is a better fighter, but his recent resume is lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagleSo if Floyd dominates Shane he doesnt deserve to be P4P #1?Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Mosley can't be P4P no.1 even if he beats Floyd. Only two fights ago he was outboxed by Cotto. Look what the naturally much smaller Pac did to Cotto. And Pac has already looked more impressive beating Floyds opponents.
Exactly what Mark said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark TKO
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
I just wish we could've seen these two fight prime for prime at 135 pounds. One of the most intriguing fights ever for me
As much as I think Floyd is already a better fighter than Manny, he doesn't not deserve to surplant Manny on the p4p pole unless he has an amazing victory over Mosley, or Shane over him, and that Manny doesn't have a decisive win over Clottey. I think as long as Manny firmly beats Clottey he will remain p4p#1, he doesn't deserve to have it taken away from him unless he loses or wins a controversial fight.
They (Oscar\GBP\Ring) could uproot Manny in an attempt to bruise his ego enough to lure him into the ring with Mayweather. Judging by his reaction to the juicing accusations, etc... i think the opposite just might happen, though...:-\
Yes. I agree. Manny only took Floyd's spot, because of inactivity. Now Floyds back and beating Mosely will be a huge conquest. I say Floyd is P4P if he pulls this off.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Actually, in the event that Floyd and Pac both win their fights, I'm in favor of vacating the #1 p4p spot until these two fools fight each other.
It should since the so callled no 1 has ducked both guys.
I'm thinking of the same thing. Maybe this will be an added motivation for them to fight each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Scenario 1: If Pacman wins via KO, SD or UD vs Clottey
If Mosley wins via KO, UD or SD -- he will be number 1
If Floyd wins via SD or UD -- he will stay at number 2
If Floyd wins via KO (which is very unlikely) -- he will be number 1
Scenario 2: If Pacman losses via KO, SD or UD vs Clottey
If Mosley wins via KO, UD or SD -- he will be number 1
If Floyd wins via SD or UD -- he will be number 1
If Floyd wins via KO (which is very unlikely) -- he will be number 1
No matter what happens to pacman, if Mosley wins vs Floyd, that will mean he beat 2 top active welter fighters that Pacman never fought. That is enough to put Mosley on Number 1 I guess.
I believe that if Floyd wins in convincing fashion then yes he is p4p #1. People discount Floyd's recent body of work but I don't see how you can. IF he beats Shane than thats SHANE, JMM, HATTON last three wins. Consider PAC's if he beats Clotty. Then thats Clotty, Cotto, and Hatton. I don't see a big difference in quality of opponant. People discount Floyd's win over JMM but the same guy gave PAC fits in the first fight (ended in a Draw) and was robbed (I believe) in the second fight in a close decision just 2 years ago. People are rating Clotty higher but really who has he fought? He lost a close decision to Cotto and beat Zab Judah.
IMO if Floyd beats Shane convincingly than yes he is P4P champ hands down.
You mean mayorga the gym-rat?Quote:
Originally Posted by eagleI tcan see how you would think that Pac was still more deserving than PBF, but im not sure how u can then say Shane would be more deserving than Pac. I mean here is a man who went 12 hard rounds with Mayorga 2 fights ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHNo, I don't think he does. I would argue that Pacquiao's last three victories (Hatton, Cotto, Clottey [assuming he beats Clottey without controversy]) are more impressive than Marquez (the blown-up version Mayweather fought) and Mosley. Pacquiao dominated Hatton and Cotto and if he does the same to Clottey I don't think there is anyway I could argue that Mayweather deserves to be above him on a P4P list. That being said, I do think Mayweather is a better fighter, but his recent resume is lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
Floyd dominated Juan Manuel Marquez who was P4P#2 and the fighter that some say beat Pacquiao twice Floyd then slipped in at number 2 behind Pacquiao now in his 2nd fight back Floyd is fighting P4P#3 and the real number 1 Welterweight so i think if he wins in good fashion he should edge Pacquiao back in to number 2 spot.
Although I think Mayweather would comfortably beat Manny, I don't think he has done enough to oust Manny as the number 1 man since his return. In fact he would have to beat Manny for me providing Manny doesn't get beaten by Clottey!
I said noted a few weeks ago that over history it seems that fighters who gravitate towards, or even from the WW division seem more destined for a greater kind of accolade than others. (bar maybe the Heavyweights?)
It's almost a hindrance to my judgement now that there are several fighters all in the same weight-class all rated as p4p some of the best fighters on the planet.
The thing to remember is that we are not talking about a simple league table.
Weight class aside, my principle is that the bias goes towards the naturally smaller man.
With that in mind, there's not a lot Mosley could do at this point become the No.1 ranked fighter.... Even if he sparked Floyd in one round, he'd still only be an heir apparent of sorts. Basically, it's Manny's crown to loose at this point (for reasons stated by Mark TKO & Fenster).
Good Question. I think alot of people got it right.
1. If PBF wins he's likely to be #1. Since him and Pac were neck and neck before, and Mosley represents a calibur of fighter (especially at welter) who is clearly better than any of either man's recent fights, PBF would win on quality of opponents.
2. Mosely beating PBF would be huge, but #1 depends on more than one fight. Right now, Pac is in his red-hot prime, displaying enormous skill, so the only was to catapult above him, if you are not PBF--who displays differnent skills of equal quality--is to actually beat him.
Of course the above can all change depending an how the fight unravels. That's one thing I love about boxing--its not merely if you win or lose (indeed a fighter can win while losing) its how you play the game.
For me Pac has to lose to Clottey for this to even be a consideration. I obviously rate Mosley higher than Clottey, BUT it's not like Clottey is a nobody, he has been competitive with many top welterweights.
if mayweather jr. beats mosley emphatically then yes, i think he deserves to take the no. 1 p4p title!
It's all subjective because that's what P4P is. I personally have Mayweather at #1 right now, because I tend to mix resume with the basic idea of who I think would win in a fight if all things are equal.
So whatever the result, you could make an argument for the Mayweather-Mosley winner or Pacquiao being #1 on May 2, because it varies for everyone how you judge these things.
There are too many ways to looks at this... Manny only recieved #1 because Floyd 'retired'. Floyd comes back and beats the man Manny went life and death with... But Marquez was a blow up featherweight. Manny has beaten fighters Floyd beat in more convincing fashion... After Floyd already beat them ( depending on what you would call a more convincing fashion)... Thay have polar opposite styles... and so on and so forth.
For me personally I would put ability and who I think would beat who above pure accomplishments ( not that accomplishments dont count for anything) I think Mayweather is a better boxer than Pac... but in the end of the day this is the nonsense that is pound for pound, for how much it gets talked about it really doesnt mean that much of a deal to most people.
So glad that this fight is going through and big respects to both fighters for going through with it! Such a big fight im so so excited to watch it! I think Manny stays at number 1 if he beats Clottey and Floyd will definatly have a say in the matter if he beats Mosley in style. I still hope to god that the winners from both fights meet each other, it has to happen for the sake of boxing! 2010 is going to be a big year in boxing I think!
Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Manny's wins now become very questionable. The fact that he refused random drug testing for his biggest payday of his career, makes him sound as dirty as a prison hype's needle.
The winner of this bout, get's the bump for me. Floyd exposed Manny and or it sure makes it look that way to me.