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Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
I've recently been having a lot of debate with a few good friends and some not so good friends who are into boxing at different levels. Some are in pretty deep, some claim to be in deep (but from their knowledge it shows that they aren't) and some admit to being the casual fan.
Admittedly, I started watching British boxing when I was little..the Eubank vs Benn era, I rarely missed a Eubank match with my dad. However I DID stop watching it when my parents went their seperate ways but I also think Eubank retiring had something to do with it - He was my dad's favourite fighter and I don't think anyone else really captured his imagination after that. So, I only really got back into boxing since the age of 21 (5 years ago) and have had to play catch up..I consider myself hardcore-ish because I get obsessive when I get into something and wanna find out everything about it. I'm nowhere near the level of some guys here though :)
Anyway the reason that's relevant to the thread is that I keep having discussions with people and they talk like they have knowledge but in reality they don't - The main arguements people have are "Mayweather ducked elite fighters and fought safe - Compare his resume with Pacquiao's"
So I did...On paper, the names on Pacquaio's resume crap all over Mayweathers but all things considered i.e results of fights, performances, opponent career age etc, I found them almost to be neck and neck.
Yepp, I say that favouring Mayweather but I by no means dislike Pacquiao (apart from his recent antics). I picked him to knock out Hatton and was happy for him doing so - I enjoy his style and he has balls of steel.
Here are some interesting things about each of their opponents :
FIGHTERS OF NOTE FOUGHT IN THEIR PRIMES
Mayweather : - Hernandez (slightly out at 32), Angel Manfredy, Diego Corales, Jesus Chavez, Jose Luis Castillo x 2, Phillip N'dou, Demarcus Corley, Zab Judah (slightly out after Baldomir), De La Hoya (debatable but he was certainly not shot), Ricky Hatton
Pacquiao : - Marquez 1 + 2 (second time slightly out of prime), Barrera 1, Oscar Larios, Morales 1 (slightly out of prime), Oscar Larios (slightly out after being knocked out by Vazquez), Solis, Diaz and Cotto (slightly out of prime)
Mayweather wins number of fighters of note in prime fought 11 - 9
Pacquiao has the better names. Of course fighters primes are an area of debate
PERFORMANCES
This is the important one for me - Pac gets credit for fighting these guys but he's almost always come up short until recently.
The fights vs Oscar I give Mayweather more credit for as he fought a legit De La Hoya compared to a dormant one that Pac fought.
Hatton I give them even credit for - Mayweather broke Hatton when he was undefeated, Pacquiao picked up the pieces emphatically when Hatton was showing signs of reduced punch resistance against Lazcano after the Mayweather fight.
Marquez I give the edge to Mayweather - I know the weight difference was major but that was a tune-up. For Pac it was an all out life and death war in which I feel he definitely lost the 2nd fight but have yet to watch the first fight. Altogether Marquez won many more rounds than has pacquiao. Slight edge to Mayweather.
Overall I feel Mayweather wins this category - 0 defeats, 1 arguable decision when he was fighting with an injury.
Pacquiao has losses against Morales who was just past his peak, lost twice to Marquez in almost everyones eyes so taking those 3 fights out leaves his resume looking quite bare with just Cotto and Barrera 1 being the only 2 real elite fighters in their prime on his record.
The last thing I want to address is this "ducking" issue that always comes up with nearly all people who have a problem with Floyd Mayweather.
I will dare to say that Mayweather is NOT afraid to fight anybody. He will fight anybody for money.
He was apparently ducking Margarito (my fave accusation) but was he really ducking Margarito if he is now facing the guy who destroyed him in his last fight? No
The other one is Cotto - I don't ever remember Cotto being interested in that fight and it woulda been a hell of a fight for sure..but..did he duck him? He was negotiating a fight with the guy who destroyed Cotto and Pac pulled out over valid drug tests. So was he ducking Cotto? No
Pacquiao could be accused of it too in my opinion - Got out of a fight with Mayweather over simple tests, didn't want a 3rd fight with Marquez to squash the controversy (Mayweather gave an immediate rematch to his one controversial victory).
Roach is probably more responsible for that and matches his fighter up very well...something the Floyd camp was always accused of doing (and admittedly HAVE been doing for a lot of his late career)
However, I wouldn't accuse either fighter of "ducking" because that shows fear and neither have it from what I've seen.
It just wound me up because the guys debating with me mostly have only been watching the latter part of the two fighters careers. Pacquiao takes the stakes in that part for sure but Mayweathers earlier career is far more stellar than Pacquiao's. The two CV's will be more even after the fighters next two fights.
As of now, I think both CV's need to be taken with a pinch of salt = The names on Pacquiao's CV aren't what they all seem and so to do Mayweather's more convincing performances but against a lot of B+ fighters.
Your thoughts?
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Mayweather fighting Hatton at 147lb should not count too highly but beating ODH at light middle was a better victory.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Pacquiao has the better resume. Pound for pound Barrera, Morales, and Cotto are all three better than anyone Floyd has faced. Im not taking the JMM fight into consideration because obviously he doesnt belong at 147.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
levi#1BoxingFan
Pacquiao has the better resume. Pound for pound Barrera, Morales, and Cotto are all three better than anyone Floyd has faced. Im not taking the JMM fight into consideration because obviously he doesnt belong at 147.
and Pacquiao's wins over Morales came clearly after Morales was past his best, i'd say their resumes are about even, Mayweather taking on big names like Chavez, Hernandez, and Corrales before they had their biggest win or best showing and Pacquiao taking on the others after they passed their peak, guess it's a glass half empty kinda thing
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
Master
Mayweather fighting Hatton at 147lb should not count too highly but beating ODH at light middle was a better victory.
Hatton was former WBA 147lb champ and Mayweather is'nt the biggest 147lb fighter in size well wasn't at the time and Hatton was unbeaten 43-0 who knew what he was fully capable of end of the day Mayweather was the first man to beat Hatton and in good fashion.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
levi#1BoxingFan
Pacquiao has the better resume. Pound for pound Barrera, Morales, and Cotto are all three better than anyone Floyd has faced. Im not taking the JMM fight into consideration because obviously he doesnt belong at 147.
No. Morales and cotto were damaged when pac beat them. Especially cotto. If cotto hadn't been beaten up by margarito before pac fought him Id think different. That boy was damaged though.
Should add the resume number of drug tests avoided....
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
levi#1BoxingFan
Pacquiao has the better resume. Pound for pound Barrera, Morales, and Cotto are all three better than anyone Floyd has faced. Im not taking the JMM fight into consideration because obviously he doesnt belong at 147.
I disagree. Cotto was not as good a win as PBF over 154lbs ODLH coming off his destruction of Mayorga. Pac fought an absolute shadow of that man at a weight he couldn't make.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
levi#1BoxingFan
Pacquiao has the better resume. Pound for pound Barrera, Morales, and Cotto are all three better than anyone Floyd has faced. Im not taking the JMM fight into consideration because obviously he doesnt belong at 147.
and Pacquiao's wins over Morales came clearly after Morales was past his best, i'd say their resumes are about even, Mayweather taking on big names like Chavez, Hernandez, and Corrales before they had their biggest win or best showing and Pacquiao taking on the others after they passed their peak, guess it's a glass half empty kinda thing
Jesus Chavez, Carlos Hernandez, are good fighters. But i'd hardly call them big names, i mean in truth there only really known for there losses. Not there wins, i agree about the Erik Morales fights though.
Erik Morales had clearly seen better days losing to MAB a 2nd time, then an embarrassing loss to Zahir Raheem. But Manny Pacquiao still deserves his dues for beating MAB the 1st time, because MAB was P4P top 5 and had a string of impressive wins.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
levi#1BoxingFan
Pacquiao has the better resume. Pound for pound Barrera, Morales, and Cotto are all three better than anyone Floyd has faced. Im not taking the JMM fight into consideration because obviously he doesnt belong at 147.
I disagree. Cotto was not as good a win as PBF over 154lbs ODLH coming off his destruction of Mayorga. Pac fought an absolute shadow of that man at a weight he couldn't make.
I think thats debatable, yes ODLH did destroy Ricardo Mayorga. But again he fought Floyd Mayweather Jr a year after that fight. And he had only 3 fights in almost 3 years, it was still a good win. Considering ODLH had all the advantages.
But again Manny Pacquiao did destroy Miguel Cotto, leaving no real doubt. Maybe Miguel Cotto had seen better days after the Antonio Margarito fight, but ODLH was hardly at his peak either. And Manny Pacquiao in his last few fights did move up in weight and destroy fighters, no one thought he had a chance against.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
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Originally Posted by
levi#1BoxingFan
Pacquiao has the better resume. Pound for pound Barrera, Morales, and Cotto are all three better than anyone Floyd has faced. Im not taking the JMM fight into consideration because obviously he doesnt belong at 147.
No. Morales and cotto were damaged when pac beat them. Especially cotto. If cotto hadn't been beaten up by margarito before pac fought him Id think different. That boy was damaged though.
Should add the resume number of drug tests avoided....
Forgetting all this steroid nonsense, because theres no 100 percent proof yet. Miguel Cotto still managed to beat Joshua Clottey, and destroy a decent fighter in Michael Jennings. I don't think he was that "damaged". And the way Manny Pacquiao dominated Miguel Cotto, i don't really see how much different it could of been.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
Tysonbruno
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Originally Posted by
Master
Mayweather fighting Hatton at 147lb should not count too highly but beating ODH at light middle was a better victory.
Hatton was former WBA 147lb champ and Mayweather is'nt the biggest 147lb fighter in size well wasn't at the time and Hatton was unbeaten 43-0 who knew what he was fully capable of end of the day Mayweather was the first man to beat Hatton and in good fashion.
Hatton was shite at Welter and just barely beat Collazo who is not known to be a damaging hitter but gave Ricky hell.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Pacman and mayweathers resume are very simmilar with Pacmans win other Cotto making his slightly better.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
just to add to this, pac has also "avoided" certain fighters in his old weight classes. Guzman, valero and mosley most recently at welter. Not really a negative imo because you either clear out your division or move up in weight and take more titles. Either one is challenging in its own right. However pac usually gets a free pass. Both fighters are very similar when the smoke is cleared.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
levi#1BoxingFan
Pacquiao has the better resume. Pound for pound Barrera, Morales, and Cotto are all three better than anyone Floyd has faced. Im not taking the JMM fight into consideration because obviously he doesnt belong at 147.
and Pacquiao's wins over Morales came clearly after Morales was past his best, i'd say their resumes are about even, Mayweather taking on big names like Chavez, Hernandez, and Corrales before they had their biggest win or best showing and Pacquiao taking on the others after they passed their peak, guess it's a glass half empty kinda thing
Jesus Chavez, Carlos Hernandez, are good fighters. But i'd hardly call them big names, i mean in truth there only really known for there losses. Not there wins, i agree about the Erik Morales fights though.
Erik Morales had clearly seen better days losing to MAB a 2nd time, then an embarrassing loss to Zahir Raheem.
But Manny Pacquiao still deserves his dues for beating MAB the 1st time, because MAB was P4P top 5 and had a string of impressive wins.
i completely agree, Barrera gave no signs of slowing down heading into that fight, and he rebounded nicely after the loss, so Pacquiao should be given full credit for the first win
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Pacquiao has the better resume. Pound for pound Barrera, Morales, and Cotto are all three better than anyone Floyd has faced. Im not taking the JMM fight into consideration because obviously he doesnt belong at 147.
Rubbish. Name one fighter that Manny fought that could have beaten Diego Corrales at the time he fought PBF. Corrales would have done to Cotto what Margarito did to him earlier, and without paddings. He would have destroyed all the fighters Manny beat, and then some. His long reach and power would have devasted everyone on Manny's list, and he would have pulverized Manny.
The problem with you guys, is that your hate for PBF has the effect of lobotomizing your brains. You have to be a Steinbeck's Lennie to assert that Barrera, Morales and Cotto were better than Diego Corrales before he was destroyed by a young Mayweather.
I agree with the general analysis of the thread starter, but feel that he is taking it easy on Mannie because of the Public sentiment. That sentiment surrenders logic in pursuit of emotionalism. This is a situation in which one athlete proposed random drug testing prior to their athletic engagement. The emotional reaction from PBF haters is presented as though PBF demanded that Manny do something he was not prepared to do. I mean I get cognitive dissonance from reading some the reasonings and rationales being presented to defend Manny's ducking out of random drug testing. Because that is, in effect, what he did. He ducked out of random drug testing, and then filed a lawsuit to ostensibly regain his good name.
A little advice for Manny and his infatuated assembley. Lawyers and pussyfooting businessmen file lawsuits to regain their good names. Fighters accomplish that with their fists.;)
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Both guys have great resumes....no need to shit on one fighter to say another is good. I'm equally impressed with both for different reasons. Pac has been a beast as of late and floyd has cruised through just about everyone he's faced. Before fights these guys are the so called "one" then floyd beats them and all of the sudden they are old, small, blah, blah. Funny that's not the case when all hopes are high and the ppv cash is being handed over before hand but ah well......we're actually a couple of months away from the same being said about shane.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Their resumes are basically equivalent, although I'd give Manny a slight edge as of right now, although should both win their next fights, I think the Mosley win would push Mayweather's just ahead. The easiest way to look at is the number of hall of famers they have both faced.
Pacquiao: (Certain HoFers) Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Oscar De La Hoya (Probable) Ricky Hatton, Miguel Cotto, Chatchai Sasakul (Possible but unlikely) Jorge Solis, Oscar Larios
Mayweather: (Certain HoFers) Genaro Hernandez, Diego Corrales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Oscar De La Hoya (Probable) Jose Luis Castillo, Arturo Gatti, Ricky Hatton (Possible but unlikely) Zab Judah, Jesus Chavez
So that's pretty close to even, but with Pacquiao having a slight edge. Part of the whole 'ducking' issue also comes down to where people watch fights. Anything below Lightweight doesn't get much attention, even among many fans. You can make an argument that Mayweather should have fought Margarito or Cotto, however you can equally make the same argument for Pacquiao with the likes of Joan Guzman, Nate Campbell or Humberto Soto at the lower weights. In the end, both have taken more than enough dangerous fights and have probably the best resumes in the sport and once their careers are over, the fights they 'ducked' will be forgotten in favour of realizing just how many dangerous opponents they fought.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
There are those who believe that Manny Pacquiao was defeated by & then beat past his prime Erik Morales, lost twice to Juan Manuel Marquez, beat a mediocre David Diaz, a shell & weight drained Oscar dela Hoya, a no-defense & never elite boxer in Ricky Hatton and a damaged Miguel Cotto.
Just out of curiosity, this is my question to those who do not find Manny's accomplishment as impressive nor do they find his resume to be better than Floyd's. Is it then justifiable for Floyd Mayweather to demand that Manny go through a rigid blood test for PEDs considering that Manny is just average (even below average as some thinks) & is even the underdog in that fight?
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Just out of curiosity, this is my question to those who do not find Manny's
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accomplishment as impressive nor do they find his resume to be better than Floyd's. Is it then justifiable for Floyd Mayweather to demand that Manny go through a rigid blood test for PEDs considering that Manny is just average (even below average as some thinks) & is even the underdog in that fight?
I'm afraid your context is skewed. Logically, demanding the condition of more rigorous drug testing has nothing to do with whether your opponent is washed up or great. It has to do with making sure that he is clean
How does the term "justifiable" find its way into a conversation about drug testing? A fighter is justifiable in seeking any conditions that brings a greater level of fairness to the competition. But we can turn that question around. Given the fact that the fans of Manny claim that Floyd only fights push overs, how justifiable is Manny in refusing to take part in random drug testing, considering that he is thought to be way above the class of everyone PBF has fought previously?
Floyd did not refuse to fight. Manny did. Floyd said that "Let us submit ourselves to random drug testing leading up to our battle". Manny responded "no way Jose". So who refused to fight. Floyd did not refuse to abide by any condition to make the fight, Manny did. Floyd did not demand any special dispositions for himself, Manny did. It was Manny who had convenient hangups about his blood being drawn.
No amount of dumbing down of the conversation on the sweet science will vitiate the logical indictment of Manny's position. Floyd Mayweather Junior threw down a gauntlet at Manny's feet in the challenging fashion of Knights of old. Manny refused to pick it up, thus by extension refusing to accept the challenge to do battle. ;D
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
There are those who believe that Manny Pacquiao was defeated by & then beat past his prime Erik Morales, lost twice to Juan Manuel Marquez, beat a mediocre David Diaz, a shell & weight drained Oscar dela Hoya, a no-defense & never elite boxer in Ricky Hatton and a damaged Miguel Cotto.
Just out of curiosity, this is my question to those who do not find Manny's accomplishment as impressive nor do they find his resume to be better than Floyd's. Is it then justifiable for Floyd Mayweather to demand that Manny go through a rigid blood test for PEDs considering that Manny is just average (even below average as some thinks) & is even the underdog in that fight?
Is it justifiable to ask for 10,000,000 per pound over when Floyd has onl been overweight once? Is it hjustifiable to knock back $40,000,000+ for the sake of a few blood tests? No one has ever said Manny is jus average, they merely say that his accomplishments may not be quite as out of this world and god like as some Pactards think they are.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
I'd have to say their resumes are pretty even... At the end of the day, styles make fights. There's a lot to compare... I dunno?
On a side note, Margarito will NEVER get a piece of Mayweather. Money knows where his mouth is.
On a extra side note... I'm predicting Clottey takes a piece of Pacquiao... Just a piece though (sadly, he ain't that hungry).
No, Clottey will take just enough for Mayweather to finish the meal ;)
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
JJson
Just out of curiosity, this is my question to those who do not find Manny's
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accomplishment as impressive nor do they find his resume to be better than Floyd's. Is it then justifiable for Floyd Mayweather to demand that Manny go through a rigid blood test for PEDs considering that Manny is just average (even below average as some thinks) & is even the underdog in that fight?
I'm afraid your context is skewed. Logically, demanding the condition of more rigorous drug testing has nothing to do with whether your opponent is washed up or great. It has to do with making sure that he is clean
How does the term "justifiable" find its way into a conversation about drug testing? A fighter is justifiable in seeking any conditions that brings a greater level of fairness to the competition. But we can turn that question around. Given the fact that the fans of Manny claim that Floyd only fights push overs, how justifiable is Manny in refusing to take part in random drug testing, considering that he is thought to be way above the class of everyone PBF has fought previously?
Floyd did not refuse to fight. Manny did. Floyd said that "Let us submit ourselves to random drug testing leading up to our battle". Manny responded "no way Jose". So who refused to fight. Floyd did not refuse to abide by any condition to make the fight, Manny did. Floyd did not demand any special dispositions for himself, Manny did. It was Manny who had convenient hangups about his blood being drawn.
No amount of dumbing down of the conversation on the sweet science will vitiate the logical indictment of Manny's position. Floyd Mayweather Junior threw down a gauntlet at Manny's feet in the challenging fashion of Knights of old. Manny refused to pick it up, thus by extension refusing to accept the challenge to do battle. ;D
I may have used the wrong word. It may be justifiable to request for a blood test to clean up the sport but why now when the fighter that Floyd is facing is deemed inferior to him by a number of posters in this forum. Manny is the underdog. I feel that it's like Lebron James demanding blood test from Vince Carter before they play ball. It may be valid to request for the blood test if there is suspicion that the opponent is using but if the opponent is not seen as someone exceptional, then where did the suspicion come from? And do you think it was to bring a greater level of fairness to the competition? But there was no level of fairness when he fought Marquez, was there?
I am not condoning Manny's response to the demand. He could have responded better. I am just posting a question with regards to the demand that started the disagreement. The motive for Floyd's demand is suspicious. The refusal to accede to the demand also placed Manny under suspicion.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
There are those who believe that Manny Pacquiao was defeated by & then beat past his prime Erik Morales, lost twice to Juan Manuel Marquez, beat a mediocre David Diaz, a shell & weight drained Oscar dela Hoya, a no-defense & never elite boxer in Ricky Hatton and a damaged Miguel Cotto.
Just out of curiosity, this is my question to those who do not find Manny's accomplishment as impressive nor do they find his resume to be better than Floyd's. Is it then justifiable for Floyd Mayweather to demand that Manny go through a rigid blood test for PEDs considering that Manny is just average (even below average as some thinks) & is even the underdog in that fight?
Is it justifiable to ask for 10,000,000 per pound over when Floyd has onl been overweight once? Is it hjustifiable to knock back $40,000,000+ for the sake of a few blood tests? No one has ever said Manny is jus average, they merely say that his accomplishments may not be quite as out of this world and god like as some Pactards think they are.
Would you rather have Team Pacquiao request $ 10,000,000 per pound over the limit or a stipulation that there will be no fight if any of them is over the limit? This had been done before in Corrales-Castillo III? Floyd did not go beyong the 147 lb limit with Marquez so I don't think this would have been an issue for him even if the request is for $ 20,000,000.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
There are those who believe that Manny Pacquiao was defeated by & then beat past his prime Erik Morales, lost twice to Juan Manuel Marquez, beat a mediocre David Diaz, a shell & weight drained Oscar dela Hoya, a no-defense & never elite boxer in Ricky Hatton and a damaged Miguel Cotto.
Just out of curiosity, this is my question to those who do not find Manny's accomplishment as impressive nor do they find his resume to be better than Floyd's. Is it then justifiable for Floyd Mayweather to demand that Manny go through a rigid blood test for PEDs considering that Manny is just average (even below average as some thinks) & is even the underdog in that fight?
Is it justifiable to ask for 10,000,000 per pound over when Floyd has onl been overweight once? Is it hjustifiable to knock back $40,000,000+ for the sake of a few blood tests? No one has ever said Manny is jus average, they merely say that his accomplishments may not be quite as out of this world and god like as some Pactards think they are.
Would you rather have Team Pacquiao request $ 10,000,000 per pound over the limit or a stipulation that there will be no fight if any of them is over the limit? This had been done before in Corrales-Castillo III? Floyd did not go beyong the 147 lb limit with Marquez so I don't think this would have been an issue for him even if the request is for $ 20,000,000.
The point is Pac started the stipulations thinking he could win the one up game. Then FLoyd agreed to his ask and threw one back and Pac ran away with his tail between his legs. Are you naive enough to believe that Pac ran away from a 40 million fight just because he didnt like blood tests even though he'd been filmed taking them before? If Pac had nothing to hide the tests wouldnt be an issue would they?
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JJson
Just out of curiosity, this is my question to those who do not find Manny's
Quote:
accomplishment as impressive nor do they find his resume to be better than Floyd's. Is it then justifiable for Floyd Mayweather to demand that Manny go through a rigid blood test for PEDs considering that Manny is just average (even below average as some thinks) & is even the underdog in that fight?
I'm afraid your context is skewed. Logically, demanding the condition of more rigorous drug testing has nothing to do with whether your opponent is washed up or great. It has to do with making sure that he is clean
How does the term "justifiable" find its way into a conversation about drug testing? A fighter is justifiable in seeking any conditions that brings a greater level of fairness to the competition. But we can turn that question around. Given the fact that the fans of Manny claim that Floyd only fights push overs, how justifiable is Manny in refusing to take part in random drug testing, considering that he is thought to be way above the class of everyone PBF has fought previously?
Floyd did not refuse to fight. Manny did. Floyd said that "Let us submit ourselves to random drug testing leading up to our battle". Manny responded "no way Jose". So who refused to fight. Floyd did not refuse to abide by any condition to make the fight, Manny did. Floyd did not demand any special dispositions for himself, Manny did. It was Manny who had convenient hangups about his blood being drawn.
No amount of dumbing down of the conversation on the sweet science will vitiate the logical indictment of Manny's position. Floyd Mayweather Junior threw down a gauntlet at Manny's feet in the challenging fashion of Knights of old. Manny refused to pick it up, thus by extension refusing to accept the challenge to do battle. ;D
I may have used the wrong word. It may be justifiable to request for a blood test to clean up the sport but why
now when the fighter that Floyd is facing is deemed inferior to him by a number of posters in this forum. Manny is the underdog. I feel that it's like Lebron James demanding blood test from Vince Carter before they play ball. It may be valid to request for the blood test if there is suspicion that the opponent is using but if the opponent is not seen as someone exceptional, then where did the suspicion come from? And do you think it was to bring a greater level of fairness to the competition? But there was no level of fairness when he fought Marquez, was there?
I am not condoning Manny's response to the demand. He could have responded better. I am just posting a question with regards to the demand that started the disagreement. The motive for Floyd's demand is suspicious. The refusal to accede to the demand also placed Manny under suspicion.
I say you pose a great question. Many of the people on this forum thinks that Pacquiao is an average fighter that got lucky beating shot or over the hill fighters. So if he's deem so inferior in boxing and got fighters that were shot, why do they want him to take a blood test anyway if he's not that good or great? Especially against an undefeated boxer like Floyd that many here claims is the Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Pele, Johnny Unitas, of this sport?
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
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Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
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Originally Posted by
JJson
Just out of curiosity, this is my question to those who do not find Manny's I'm afraid your context is skewed. Logically, demanding the condition of more rigorous drug testing has nothing to do with whether your opponent is washed up or great. It has to do with making sure that he is clean
How does the term "justifiable" find its way into a conversation about drug testing? A fighter is justifiable in seeking any conditions that brings a greater level of fairness to the competition. But we can turn that question around. Given the fact that the fans of Manny claim that Floyd only fights push overs, how justifiable is Manny in refusing to take part in random drug testing, considering that he is thought to be way above the class of everyone PBF has fought previously?
Floyd did not refuse to fight. Manny did. Floyd said that "Let us submit ourselves to random drug testing leading up to our battle". Manny responded "no way Jose". So who refused to fight. Floyd did not refuse to abide by any condition to make the fight, Manny did. Floyd did not demand any special dispositions for himself, Manny did. It was Manny who had convenient hangups about his blood being drawn.
No amount of dumbing down of the conversation on the sweet science will vitiate the logical indictment of Manny's position. Floyd Mayweather Junior threw down a gauntlet at Manny's feet in the challenging fashion of Knights of old. Manny refused to pick it up, thus by extension refusing to accept the challenge to do battle. ;D
I may have used the wrong word. It may be justifiable to request for a blood test to clean up the sport but why
now when the fighter that Floyd is facing is deemed inferior to him by a number of posters in this forum. Manny is the underdog. I feel that it's like Lebron James demanding blood test from Vince Carter before they play ball. It may be valid to request for the blood test if there is suspicion that the opponent is using but if the opponent is not seen as someone exceptional, then where did the suspicion come from? And do you think it was to bring a greater level of fairness to the competition? But there was no level of fairness when he fought Marquez, was there?
I am not condoning Manny's response to the demand. He could have responded better. I am just posting a question with regards to the demand that started the disagreement. The motive for Floyd's demand is suspicious. The refusal to accede to the demand also placed Manny under suspicion.
I say you pose a great question. Many of the people on this forum thinks that Pacquiao is an average fighter that got lucky beating shot or over the hill fighters. So if he's deem so inferior in boxing and got fighters that were shot, why do they want him to take a blood test anyway if he's not that good or great? Especially against an undefeated boxer like Floyd that many here claims is the Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Pele, Johnny Unitas, of this sport?
Only a gibbering moron would call Manny Pacquiao an average fighter. He's an all-time great.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
CFH, I agree with you there. I don't consider Manny as an average fighter as much as I also don't consider Floyd an average boxer. I just posted the question to those who, as generalbulldog said, deem him as inferior in boxing and got fighters that were shot. Why did the undefeated Floyd demand for a rigid blood test? Where then did the suspicion of PED use came from?
And to answer eagle's question, just because Manny was filmed taking the blood test, that doesn't necessarily mean that he liked it. It was required of him by the boxing commission.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
CFH, I agree with you there. I don't consider Manny as an average fighter as much as I also don't consider Floyd an average boxer. I just posted the question to those who, as generalbulldog said, deem him as inferior in boxing and got fighters that were shot. Why did the undefeated Floyd demand for a rigid blood test? Where then did the suspicion of PED use came from?
And to answer eagle's question, just because Manny was filmed taking the blood test, that doesn't necessarily mean that he liked it. It was required of him by the boxing commission.
Oh so now he gave up 40 million cos he 'didnt like' blood tests? So that dont seem at all suspicious in anyway to you?
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
FLOYD
130 - Diego Corrales
135 - Jose Luis Castillo
140 - Arturo Gatti
147 - Carlos Baldomir
154 - Oscar Dela Hoya
Kickers : Genaro Hernandez, Zab Judah
PAC
112 - Chatchai Sasakul
122 - Lehlohohnolo Ledwabba
126 - Marco Antonio Barrea
130 - Juan Manuel Marquez
135 - David Diaz
140 - Ricky Hatton
147 - Miguel Cotto
Kickers : Erik Morales, Oscar Larios
:D
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
CFH, I agree with you there. I don't consider Manny as an average fighter as much as I also don't consider Floyd an average boxer. I just posted the question to those who, as generalbulldog said, deem him as inferior in boxing and got fighters that were shot. Why did the undefeated Floyd demand for a rigid blood test? Where then did the suspicion of PED use came from?
And to answer eagle's question, just because Manny was filmed taking the blood test, that doesn't necessarily mean that he liked it. It was required of him by the boxing commission.
Oh so now he gave up 40 million cos he 'didnt like' blood tests? So that dont seem at all suspicious in anyway to you?
You can also turn your statement around and say that Floyd gave up on 40 million cos he didn't like Manny wanting for the blood test to be taken 24 days before the fight. He gave up on the 40 million because of the 10 days difference (24 days vs 14 days). And I have already answered your second question when I wrote a few comments back that "The refusal to accede to the demand also placed Manny under suspicion".
Now my question to you eagle is: Are you one of the posters who does not believe Manny has an impressive accomplishment? If you are, then I am just curious as to what your take is on my question above. If you are not, then that question is not for you.
And miron_lang, that's a nice list that you have but I won't put David Diaz in there. I would consider Pacquiao's win over dela Hoya as more spectacular than that. Although people would say that Oscar was a shell of himself and weight drained, Manny jumped 2 weight divisions and was a heavy underdog when he faced him. Whether it's worthy to be placed in that list is debatable.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
[quote=Mar;841810]Both guys have great resumes....quote]
I think that's the bottom line really..and as CFH said, Manny will certainly go down as one of the ATG's. I don't really wanna shit on either fighters resume, just trying to get into the mind of certain fans and the way they think. That's what led me to compare.
Guys, do we have to go back to talking about the drug testing lol You know we got plenty of time to talk about that shit in a few more months again ;D
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
CFH, I agree with you there. I don't consider Manny as an average fighter as much as I also don't consider Floyd an average boxer. I just posted the question to those who, as generalbulldog said, deem him as inferior in boxing and got fighters that were shot. Why did the undefeated Floyd demand for a rigid blood test? Where then did the suspicion of PED use came from?
And to answer eagle's question, just because Manny was filmed taking the blood test, that doesn't necessarily mean that he liked it. It was required of him by the boxing commission.
Oh so now he gave up 40 million cos he 'didnt like' blood tests? So that dont seem at all suspicious in anyway to you?
You can also turn your statement around and say that Floyd gave up on 40 million cos he didn't like Manny wanting for the blood test to be taken 24 days before the fight. He gave up on the 40 million because of the 10 days difference (24 days vs 14 days). And I have already answered your second question when I wrote a few comments back that "The refusal to accede to the demand also placed Manny under suspicion".
Now my question to you eagle is: Are you one of the posters who does not believe Manny has an impressive accomplishment? If you are, then I am just curious as to what your take is on my question above. If you are not, then that question is not for you.
And miron_lang, that's a nice list that you have but I won't put David Diaz in there. I would consider Pacquiao's win over dela Hoya as more spectacular than that. Although people would say that Oscar was a shell of himself and weight drained, Manny jumped 2 weight divisions and was a heavy underdog when he faced him. Whether it's worthy to be placed in that list is debatable.
Floyd didnt run away from anything as he was still open for negotiations when Pac went and signed up the Clottey fight. So your above statement is null and void.
I never ever said Manny was not a top and accomplished fighter. He has many great wins, but i do believe they are all suspicious now due to his recent behaviour.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Oh so now he gave up 40 million cos he 'didnt like' blood tests? So that dont seem at all suspicious in anyway to you?
You can also turn your statement around and say that Floyd gave up on 40 million cos he didn't like Manny wanting for the blood test to be taken 24 days before the fight. He gave up on the 40 million because of the 10 days difference (24 days vs 14 days). And I have already answered your second question when I wrote a few comments back that "The refusal to accede to the demand also placed Manny under suspicion".
Now my question to you eagle is: Are you one of the posters who does not believe Manny has an impressive accomplishment? If you are, then I am just curious as to what your take is on my question above. If you are not, then that question is not for you.
And miron_lang, that's a nice list that you have but I won't put David Diaz in there. I would consider Pacquiao's win over dela Hoya as more spectacular than that. Although people would say that Oscar was a shell of himself and weight drained, Manny jumped 2 weight divisions and was a heavy underdog when he faced him. Whether it's worthy to be placed in that list is debatable.
Floyd didnt run away from anything as he was still open for negotiations when Pac went and signed up the Clottey fight. So your above statement is null and void.
I never ever said Manny was not a top and accomplished fighter. He has many great wins, but i do believe they are all suspicious now due to his recent behaviour.
With regards to the Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, please read this link:
Paula Duffy: Pacquiao-Mayweather Arbitrator Says Both Sides Have Lied about Arbitration
They had a disagreement and needed to go to arbitration to save the negotiation. In the end, the parties could not agree on a testing protocol acceptable to all. The arbitration failed so what more is there to discuss?
You never ever said Manny was not a top and accomplished fighter but did you ever say that he is a top and accomplished fighter?
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
You can also turn your statement around and say that Floyd gave up on 40 million cos he didn't like Manny wanting for the blood test to be taken 24 days before the fight. He gave up on the 40 million because of the 10 days difference (24 days vs 14 days). And I have already answered your second question when I wrote a few comments back that "The refusal to accede to the demand also placed Manny under suspicion".
Now my question to you eagle is: Are you one of the posters who does not believe Manny has an impressive accomplishment? If you are, then I am just curious as to what your take is on my question above. If you are not, then that question is not for you.
And miron_lang, that's a nice list that you have but I won't put David Diaz in there. I would consider Pacquiao's win over dela Hoya as more spectacular than that. Although people would say that Oscar was a shell of himself and weight drained, Manny jumped 2 weight divisions and was a heavy underdog when he faced him. Whether it's worthy to be placed in that list is debatable.
Floyd didnt run away from anything as he was still open for negotiations when Pac went and signed up the Clottey fight. So your above statement is null and void.
I never ever said Manny was not a top and accomplished fighter. He has many great wins, but i do believe they are all suspicious now due to his recent behaviour.
With regards to the Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, please read this link:
Paula Duffy: Pacquiao-Mayweather Arbitrator Says Both Sides Have Lied about Arbitration
They had a disagreement and needed to go to arbitration to save the negotiation.
In the end, the parties could not agree on a testing protocol acceptable to all. The arbitration failed so what more is there to discuss? You never ever said Manny was not a top and accomplished fighter but did you ever say that he is a top and accomplished fighter?
Here u go. Manny Pac has the best resume in boxing today. The only thing stopping him being a genuine ATG in my eyes is the drug taking suspicions.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Floyd didnt run away from anything as he was still open for negotiations when Pac went and signed up the Clottey fight. So your above statement is null and void.
I never ever said Manny was not a top and accomplished fighter. He has many great wins, but i do believe they are all suspicious now due to his recent behaviour.
With regards to the Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, please read this link:
Paula Duffy: Pacquiao-Mayweather Arbitrator Says Both Sides Have Lied about Arbitration
They had a disagreement and needed to go to arbitration to save the negotiation.
In the end, the parties could not agree on a testing protocol acceptable to all. The arbitration failed so what more is there to discuss? You never ever said Manny was not a top and accomplished fighter but did you ever say that he is a top and accomplished fighter?
Here u go. Manny Pac has the best resume in boxing today. The only thing stopping him being a genuine ATG in my eyes is the drug taking suspicions.
Okey, so my initial question does not apply to you.
I am surprise that our exchange of comments has been civil. I have read some of your comments with regards to other posters and you can be brutal. ;D
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
With regards to the Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, please read this link:
Paula Duffy: Pacquiao-Mayweather Arbitrator Says Both Sides Have Lied about Arbitration
They had a disagreement and needed to go to arbitration to save the negotiation.
In the end, the parties could not agree on a testing protocol acceptable to all. The arbitration failed so what more is there to discuss? You never ever said Manny was not a top and accomplished fighter but did you ever say that he is a top and accomplished fighter?
Here u go. Manny Pac has the best resume in boxing today. The only thing stopping him being a genuine ATG in my eyes is the drug taking suspicions.
Okey, so my initial question does not apply to you.
I am surprise that our exchange of comments has been civil. I have read some of your comments with regards to other posters and you can be brutal. ;D
Did u read the nonsense they come out with though? Unfortunately no matter how great Pac is, he has the worst supporters in boxing. They think they are defending him but in reality they are turning other fans against him thru their one eyed fanboyism.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
I may have used the wrong word. It may be justifiable to request for a blood test to clean up the sport but why now when the fighter that Floyd is facing is deemed inferior to him by a number of posters in this forum. Manny is the underdog. I feel that it's like Lebron James demanding blood test from Vince Carter before they play ball. It may be valid to request for the blood test if there is suspicion that the opponent is using but if the opponent is not seen as someone exceptional, then where did the suspicion come from? And do you think it was to bring a greater level of fairness to the competition? But there was no level of fairness when he fought Marquez, was there?
I am not condoning Manny's response to the demand. He could have responded better. I am just posting a question with regards to the demand that started the disagreement. The motive for Floyd's demand is suspicious. The refusal to accede to the demand also placed Manny under suspicion.
I find your response to be very honest, and your musings to be very thoughtful and inquisitive. This suggest that you are indeed exploring avenues of probabilities rather than devilizing one fighter and angelizing another. And please forgive the liberty I take with the English language, I hold to the tenet that once you get my meaning the verbalizing of some nouns is excusable.
However, I take issue with your comment that the motive for Floyd's demand is suspicious. What does FLoyd stand to gain from this demand? When the motive of someone's actions come under suspicion, it is generally presumed that they stand to gain something from that action. If not, motive becomes redundant. That is why it is no longer an essential element in the judicial presentation of cases before the court, and is mostly an investigative query. So again, what does Floyd stand to gain by demanding that both he and his opponent be subjected to a regimen of random drug testing? It would seem to me, that you are just flinging out a preponderance of probabilities in pursuit of something that will stick. And that tends to vitiate the good sense that inundate the remainder of your comment.
The same people who are claiming that Mosely is inferior to Floyd, a few pages and threads away were claiming that Floyd was afraid of him. That kind of convenient shifting certainly is not acceptable as a yardstick in terms of Shane Mosley's current ability. He just destroyed someone who many of these pundits were accusing Floyd of ducking quite recently. I can't remember anyone making that observation when Bernard Hopkins signed to fight Kelly Pavlik.
Marquez has been consistent in his abilities throughout his career. The correct analogy in terms of PBF consistency has to be Shane Mosely, and he has demanded, and Shane has acceded to, a regimen of random drug testing throughout their preparation for the fight. Look, I have no problem with criticism of PBF or the fact that many believe that Mosely will beat him. But like I said, I get cognitive dissonant with a conversational premise that argues against increased scrutiny of substances fighters are putting into their bodies. In a sport where we have seen many fighters dying from blows they received in the ring, one would have expected universal support for what Mayweather initiated. That it did not, for me, is further evidence that in boxing, like so many other areas of interaction in the US, wrong and right has more to do with the personalities involved, than with the situational issue under discussion.
They don't like Floyd. They do not like his braggadocio personality. Many of them have been anticipating the enjoyment of seeing him being beaten to a pulp and silenced for more than a decade. Unfortunately for them, none of the hopefuls have been up to the task. Manny, displaying a phenomenal increase in power and ability over the past couple of years seem like the best chance for realizing a seemingly unreachable dream. How dare Floyd Mayweather Junior rob them of this expectant thrill by introducing a condition that would unequivocally level the playing field, and thus risk denying them something for which they have been yearning for decades? How else can one explain the flights of irrational and unreasonable fancies being introduced into the discussion? If you ask me, it is the motives behind these that should have aroused your suspicions.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JJson
Quote:
I may have used the wrong word. It may be justifiable to request for a blood test to clean up the sport but why now when the fighter that Floyd is facing is deemed inferior to him by a number of posters in this forum. Manny is the underdog. I feel that it's like Lebron James demanding blood test from Vince Carter before they play ball. It may be valid to request for the blood test if there is suspicion that the opponent is using but if the opponent is not seen as someone exceptional, then where did the suspicion come from? And do you think it was to bring a greater level of fairness to the competition? But there was no level of fairness when he fought Marquez, was there?
I am not condoning Manny's response to the demand. He could have responded better. I am just posting a question with regards to the demand that started the disagreement. The motive for Floyd's demand is suspicious. The refusal to accede to the demand also placed Manny under suspicion.
I find your response to be very honest, and your musings to be very thoughtful and inquisitive. This suggest that you are indeed exploring avenues of probabilities rather than devilizing one fighter and angelizing another. And please forgive the liberty I take with the English language, I hold to the tenet that once you get my meaning the verbalizing of some nouns is excusable.
However, I take issue with your comment that the motive for Floyd's demand is suspicious. What does FLoyd stand to gain from this demand? When the motive of someone's actions come under suspicion, it is generally presumed that they stand to gain something from that action. If not, motive becomes redundant. That is why it is no longer an essential element in the judicial presentation of cases before the court, and is mostly an investigative query. So again, what does Floyd stand to gain by demanding that both he and his opponent be subjected to a regimen of random drug testing? It would seem to me, that you are just flinging out a preponderance of probabilities in pursuit of something that will stick. And that tends to vitiate the good sense that inundate the remainder of your comment.
The same people who are claiming that Mosely is inferior to Floyd, a few pages and threads away were claiming that Floyd was afraid of him. That kind of convenient shifting certainly is not acceptable as a yardstick in terms of Shane Mosley's current ability. He just destroyed someone who many of these pundits were accusing Floyd of ducking quite recently. I can't remember anyone making that observation when Bernard Hopkins signed to fight Kelly Pavlik.
Marquez has been consistent in his abilities throughout his career. The correct analogy in terms of PBF consistency has to be Shane Mosely, and he has demanded, and Shane has acceded to, a regimen of random drug testing throughout their preparation for the fight. Look, I have no problem with criticism of PBF or the fact that many believe that Mosely will beat him. But like I said, I get cognitive dissonant with a conversational premise that argues against increased scrutiny of substances fighters are putting into their bodies. In a sport where we have seen many fighters dying from blows they received in the ring, one would have expected universal support for what Mayweather initiated. That it did not, for me, is further evidence that in boxing, like so many other areas of interaction in the US, wrong and right has more to do with the personalities involved, than with the situational issue under discussion.
They don't like Floyd. They do not like his braggadocio personality. Many of them have been anticipating the enjoyment of seeing him being beaten to a pulp and silenced for more than a decade. Unfortunately for them, none of the hopefuls have been up to the task. Manny, displaying a phenomenal increase in power and ability over the past couple of years seem like the best chance for realizing a seemingly unreachable dream. How dare Floyd Mayweather Junior rob them of this expectant thrill by introducing a condition that would unequivocally level the playing field, and thus risk denying them something for which they have been yearning for decades? How else can one explain the flights of irrational and unreasonable fancies being introduced into the discussion? If you ask me, it is the motives behind these that should have aroused your suspicions.
Wow, you did use a lot of liberty in expressing yourself in the English language. Are you an English professor or something? For a while there, you got me confused. You see, English is not my primary language.
With regards to the motive for Floyd's demand being suspicious, please read this link. Although it puts the blame on a lot of people, read the item with regards to Mayweather.
Blame Enough For Everyone In The Foolish Failure To Deliver Floyd Mayweather - Manny Pacquiao
I hope that answers your question.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Here u go. Manny Pac has the best resume in boxing today. The only thing stopping him being a genuine ATG in my eyes is the drug taking suspicions.
Okey, so my initial question does not apply to you.
I am surprise that our exchange of comments has been civil. I have read some of your comments with regards to other posters and you can be brutal. ;D
Did u read the nonsense they come out with though? Unfortunately no matter how great Pac is, he has the worst supporters in boxing. They think they are defending him but in reality they are turning other fans against him thru their one eyed fanboyism.
I dunno Hatton fans are pretty awful. They really did spoil our trip to vegas when he fought mayweather.
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Re: Resumes - Mayweather vs Pacquiao
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Okey, so my initial question does not apply to you.
I am surprise that our exchange of comments has been civil. I have read some of your comments with regards to other posters and you can be brutal. ;D
Did u read the nonsense they come out with though? Unfortunately no matter how great Pac is, he has the worst supporters in boxing. They think they are defending him but in reality they are turning other fans against him thru their one eyed fanboyism.
I dunno Hatton fans are pretty awful. They really did spoil our trip to vegas when he fought mayweather.
There are fanatics in every sport, some are just more extreme than the others. Some can even resort to violence. I have watched riots break out in the street after their team wins the championship and there had been clashes between opposing soccer fans.
And Hornfinger, sorry for your trip being spoiled. If you are not Hatton's countryman and wasn't even routing for any particular boxer, you would have cherished the moment that he got beaten just to get back on those fans. We sometimes develop a hatred for an athlete or a team because of our hatred towards their fan.
