In-ring Performance
Achievements
Dominance
Mainstream Appeal
Marvin Hagler, BHop, RJJ, JCalzaghe, Antonio Tarver, Eubank, SRL, james toney, Sweet pea...
Printable View
In-ring Performance
Achievements
Dominance
Mainstream Appeal
Marvin Hagler, BHop, RJJ, JCalzaghe, Antonio Tarver, Eubank, SRL, james toney, Sweet pea...
in ring performance
1-Leonard
2-Hagler
3-Jones Jr
Acheivements
1-Hagler
2-Leonard
3-Calzaghe
Dominance
1-Hagler
2-Leonard
3-Calzaghe
Mainstream appeal
1-Jones Jr
2-Eubank
3-Hagler
Calzaghe - Eubank were never undisputed champion in their prime , so they dont count . ( I take it Eubank was put in as a joke ?)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
I think Hagler is the most famous dominant champion , but its hard to say anything against SWEATPEA , hmmmm this is a tough one.
RJJ was the most talented all rounder.
EUBANK talked about in the same company of Toney, RJJ , Ray Leonard , SWEATPEA , Hagler , that is the funniest thing i have ever heard lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlCalzaghe - Eubank were never undisputed champion in their prime , so they dont count . ( I take it Eubank was put in as a joke ?)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
I think Hagler is the most famous dominant champion , but its hard to say anything against SWEATPEA , hmmmm this is a tough one.
RJJ was the most talented all rounder.
EUBANK talked about in the same company of Toney, RJJ , Ray Leonard , SWEATPEA , Hagler , that is the funniest thing i have ever heard lol.
why exactly, because he never fought out of britain, not exactly his fault that the US didnt wanna know of eubank, benn and watson
Prime Eubank beats a prime Toney.....there i said it
:o
Prime Toney beats anyone you care to mention (bar Superman)
As regards to the topic of this thread, i'd put Hagler at #1 for the majority of those criteria hence I'd have to say Hagler.
If thats your thoughts then its cool , but personally I think a guy who cant beat Dan Schommer , or Ray Close , isnt beating Toney.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlCalzaghe - Eubank were never undisputed champion in their prime , so they dont count . ( I take it Eubank was put in as a joke ?)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
I think Hagler is the most famous dominant champion , but its hard to say anything against SWEATPEA , hmmmm this is a tough one.
RJJ was the most talented all rounder.
EUBANK talked about in the same company of Toney, RJJ , Ray Leonard , SWEATPEA , Hagler , that is the funniest thing i have ever heard lol.
why exactly, because he never fought out of britain, not exactly his fault that the US didnt wanna know of eubank, benn and watson
Prime Eubank beats a prime Toney.....there i said it
By the way im aware Eubank got the verdict in both those fights.
understandably mate, but my argument being eubank beat what was put infront of him time and time again. Nothing you can do if the big fights dont come your way but to suggest for that reason he doesnt deserve to get a mention is a tad harshQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlIf thats your thoughts then its cool , but personally I think a guy who cant beat Dan Schommer , or Ray Close , isnt beating Toney.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
why exactly, because he never fought out of britain, not exactly his fault that the US didnt wanna know of eubank, benn and watson
Prime Eubank beats a prime Toney.....there i said it
By the way im aware Eubank got the verdict in both those fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
anyone in the know how (not the moronic media who dont shutup about ali) will tell you the 2 sugar rays were the greatest fighters of all time.
Leonards record doesnt do him justice, for years he was 100% unbeatable and unable to fight against
I believe Roy was more dominant than any of them and in ring performance roy rarely lost a round..and mainstream is a toss up between SRL,ROY,...Achievements is where its a bit "iffy" because roy achieved so much, but during a time where there was much more to achieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Guess I'd say Roy, then Hag or leonard, followed by BHOP...
calzaghes NEVER being beat surely ranks as the most remarkable achievement of them all??Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI believe Roy was more dominant than any of them and in ring performance roy rarely lost a round..and mainstream is a toss up between SRL,ROY,...Achievements is where its a bit "iffy" because roy achieved so much, but during a time where there was much more to achieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Guess I'd say Roy, then Hag or leonard, followed by BHOP...
Sorry mate but how the hell can you have Calzaghe ahead of RJJ in achievements? RJJ won world titles in Middle,super middle,light heavy and heavy??Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI believe Roy was more dominant than any of them and in ring performance roy rarely lost a round..and mainstream is a toss up between SRL,ROY,...Achievements is where its a bit "iffy" because roy achieved so much, but during a time where there was much more to achieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Guess I'd say Roy, then Hag or leonard, followed by BHOP...
I'd go with Hagler and Sweetpea for fulfilling the 1st 3 criteria and Leonard for filling the last one with mainstream appeal.
Sweetpea in his prime didn't lose a fight, the 1st Ramirez fight was a robbery for Pernell and I don't count that as a lost. Hagler did lose 2 fights, but that was when he was still green, when he became champ it was just pure domination against great competition and when he lost it was against a Leonard who did pitty pat punches in a bigger ring, bigger gloves, and a catchweight fight against an inactive Hagler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skel1983Sorry mate but how the hell can you have Calzaghe ahead of RJJ in achievements? RJJ won world titles in Middle,super middle,light heavy and heavy??Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI believe Roy was more dominant than any of them and in ring performance roy rarely lost a round..and mainstream is a toss up between SRL,ROY,...Achievements is where its a bit "iffy" because roy achieved so much, but during a time where there was much more to achieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Guess I'd say Roy, then Hag or leonard, followed by BHOP...
Was that for hitmanhatton or me?
Not you lol I think it's safe to say you wouldn't rank Calzaghe ahead of RJJ in anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by skel1983Sorry mate but how the hell can you have Calzaghe ahead of RJJ in achievements? RJJ won world titles in Middle,super middle,light heavy and heavy??Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Was that for hitmanhatton or me?
It was for Hammer.
In Ring PerformanceQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
SRL- His fights w Duran, Hearns, Hagler alone dwarf the comp of everyone on the list but PW
Achievements-
SRL we have to go by quality of opp, amount of titles etc
Dominance
Hagler absolutely ruled the MW division and beat his opp silly
Mainstream appeal-
SRL this guy in the 80's was DLH, Pacquiao, and everyone else on the list rolled into one...Those who don't realize the popularity of Leonard in his hey day are too young to have been around back then...He was the face of Boxing after Ali retired
In Ring PerformanceQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
SRL- His fights w Duran, Hearns, Hagler alone dwarf the comp of everyone on the list but PW
Achievements-
SRL we have to go by quality of opp, amount of titles etc...Leonard beat Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Hagler, I mean these guys are in the top 25 ATG P4P...He won titles at 147, 154, 160, 168, 175
Dominance
Hagler absolutely ruled the MW division and beat his opp silly
Mainstream appeal-
SRL this guy in the 80's was DLH, Pacquiao, and everyone else on the list rolled into one...Those who don't realize the popularity of Leonard in his hey day are too young to have been around back then...He was the face of Boxing after Ali retired
\Leonard is the top of this list....Not saying the best fighter of them all but still using the criteria he dominated....Tarver and Eubank dont even belong in the company of the others
Ok, all of these are in order
In-ring Performance
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones Jr
Marvin Hagler
Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Joe Calzaghe
Antonio Tarver
Chris Eubank
Achievements
Roy Jones Jr
Sugar Ray Leonard
Bernard Hopkins
Pernell Whitaker
Marvin Hagler
Joe Calzaghe
James Toney
Antonio Tarver
Chris Eubank
Dominance
Marvin Hagler
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones Jr
Bernard Hopkins
Sugar Ray Leonard
Joe Calzaghe
James Toney
Antonio Tarver
Mainstream Appeal
Sugar Ray Leonard (& it's not even close here)
Marvin Hagler
Roy Jones Jr
Chris Eubank (only in UK)
Bernard Hopkins
Antonio Tarver
James Toney
Joe Calzaghe
Pernell Whitaker
On the last one, it's Leonard in a far out lead, followed by Hagler, who's closely followed by Jones than the rest are all a similar level.
You really think Pernell was more Dominate then Jones was?Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
He maybe didn't dominate his opponents as much, but I felt his opposition was better & he did properly dominate the Lightweight & Welterweight division imo. Jones swept through to LHW, but I felt his opposition was too hideous at times there, which is what swayed me. Maybe opposition shouldn't come under dominance, but it's the same reason I have Calzaghe under Leonard despite him dominating SMW for so many years.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnYou really think Pernell was more Dominate then Jones was?Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Fair call and one I agree with 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinHe maybe didn't dominate his opponents as much, but I felt his opposition was better & he did properly dominate the Lightweight & Welterweight division imo. Jones swept through to LHW, but I felt his opposition was too hideous at times there, which is what swayed me. Maybe opposition shouldn't come under dominance, but it's the same reason I have Calzaghe under Leonard despite him dominating SMW for so many years.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnYou really think Pernell was more Dominate then Jones was?Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
X2
Hagler is my all time favorite fighter and I put him number one but not because of bias but based on your criteria. IMO, if you take a fighter's greatest asset away from him and then see how he performs, that tells you how good he is. With Roy, his gift was his reflexes. Once that went, he was merely mediocre. Hagler, like Leonard, was so well rounded they could have still been world champions if you took their single greatest skill away (I also feel Hagler beat Leonard but that's beside the point). Hagler, Whitaker, and Roy were the most dominant but Hagler clearly dominated against the toughest competition. As far as in ring performance, Hagler and Tarver had the most impressive single wins (against Hearns and Jones). Whitaker's dominance over Chavez I'd say is a distant third because I rate KOs far ahead of boxing clinics. As mentioned by a few people, Leonard is clearly the mainstream king. As far as achievments I don't put as much stock in moving up in weight as others, but moreso on who you beat. That's why IMO Hagler staying at one weight supercedes all the belts Roy won. Rolling all the criteria together, my list is:
1. Hagler
2. Leonard
3. Whitaker
4. Jones and Hopkins tied
5. Calzaghe
6. Toney
7. Tarver
8. Eubank
Saying Roy's "gift" was reflexes is basically saying he got "old". Roy actually fought longer than both of them. Hagler had more rounds, but roy was older. "Not including the fights with Tarver, johnson, calzaghe, etc" Roy was older than the both of them (SRL and HAGLER) when he first lost to Tarver. So there's no proof that i see to back up the statement that they could have lasted without the prime asset which you called "reflexes" and in boxing that's basically age. The asset of age isn't exclusive to Roy they all need that.Quote:
Originally Posted by match
What do reflexes have to do with anything I said about Hagler and Leonard? I said 'Roy's' greatest asset was his reflexes, not Hagler and Leonard. Both of them were more well rounded and didn't rely solely on athleticism to win fights. The proof I see to back this up is simply watching Roy of the 90s vs Roy of today. Other fighters have gotten old yet managed to adapt based on being well rounded, and others as you stated simply got old. IMO Roy didn't lose to Tarver because he got old or because he lost weight, it was because Tarver just has his number. Me taking away a fighter's greatest strength, as I said, is just something hypothetical I do to try to see how well rounded a fighter is. To be fair, maybe I didn't explain what I meant clearly. Any fighter who's reflexes deteriorate will obviously not be as good, I think though that Roy's reflexes deteriorating has a more profound, negative affect on him than say anyone else, simply because he had the best reflexes I ever saw, but he relied to heavily on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherSaying Roy's "gift" was reflexes is basically saying he got "old". Roy actually fought longer than both of them. Hagler had more rounds, but roy was older. "Not including the fights with Tarver, johnson, calzaghe, etc" Roy was older than the both of them (SRL and HAGLER) when he first lost to Tarver. So there's no proof that i see to back up the statement that they could have lasted without the prime asset which you called "reflexes" and in boxing that's basically age. The asset of age isn't exclusive to Roy they all need that.Quote:
Originally Posted by match
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherSaying Roy's "gift" was reflexes is basically saying he got "old". Roy actually fought longer than both of them. Hagler had more rounds, but roy was older. "Not including the fights with Tarver, johnson, calzaghe, etc" Roy was older than the both of them (SRL and HAGLER) when he first lost to Tarver. So there's no proof that i see to back up the statement that they could have lasted without the prime asset which you called "reflexes" and in boxing that's basically age. The asset of age isn't exclusive to Roy they all need that.Quote:
Originally Posted by match
Lets be honest the only reason why Roy stayed active so long is many easy fights...His whole LHW career before his move to heavyweight exist mostly of live bodies with a few exceptions...Easy fights allow a longer shelf life when u rely on speed like Jones did
Quote:
Originally Posted by matchWhat do reflexes have to do with anything I said about Hagler and Leonard? I said 'Roy's' greatest asset was his reflexes, not Hagler and Leonard. Both of them were more well rounded and didn't rely solely on athleticism to win fights. The proof I see to back this up is simply watching Roy of the 90s vs Roy of today. Other fighters have gotten old yet managed to adapt based on being well rounded, and others as you stated simply got old. IMO Roy didn't lose to Tarver because he got old or because he lost weight, it was because Tarver just has his number. Me taking away a fighter's greatest strength, as I said, is just something hypothetical I do to try to see how well rounded a fighter is. To be fair, maybe I didn't explain what I meant clearly. Any fighter who's reflexes deteriorate will obviously not be as good, I think though that Roy's reflexes deteriorating has a more profound, negative affect on him than say anyone else, simply because he had the best reflexes I ever saw, but he relied to heavily on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherSaying Roy's "gift" was reflexes is basically saying he got "old". Roy actually fought longer than both of them. Hagler had more rounds, but roy was older. "Not including the fights with Tarver, johnson, calzaghe, etc" Roy was older than the both of them (SRL and HAGLER) when he first lost to Tarver. So there's no proof that i see to back up the statement that they could have lasted without the prime asset which you called "reflexes" and in boxing that's basically age. The asset of age isn't exclusive to Roy they all need that.Quote:
Originally Posted by match
Do you honestly believe Tarver would have defeated Roy before going up to HW?
I think Tarver is to Jones is what Frazier was to Ali. Stylistically he's a bad matchup for him. He's a guy who would have given Roy fits at any time in his career. Roy is clearly the better of the two but if they had fought 10 times I think Tarver wins 3 or 4.