Which knuckles do the hitting in boxing?

Truthfully, I didn't really think it mattered with gloves and hand wraps, but readying Dempsey made me re-think this.

From most of my martial arts training it was always supposed it to be the 1st and 2nd knuckles -- by very slightly tipping the hand down and outside to line up these knuckles with the radius bone as straight as possible. The idea to put the largest and strongest bones in line with the

[Systema is the one partial-exception since they seem to teach you hit with whatever knuckles you use most comfortably to do a 5 minute plank (push-up) on a hard floor most comfortably -- this vary for different people, but it remains the first two knuckles for me.:)]

In Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense, Dempsey says it is the pinky finger that has the best 'powerline', but for a couple of reasons instructs the boxer to aim with the ring finger, and thus end up most of the time hitting with the pinky, ring, and middle finger.

Dempsey is adamant about not trying to hit with the first two fingers.

Any thoughts? Any evidence?

Does it matter?

BTW, this one of the few things in Dempsey's book that I have trouble believing....

--
HerbM

I make Him right, plus if the Hands are wrapped a certain way theres no problem. plus the Biomechanics are correct

Wnen in doubt, jam your thumb in their eye.

If you feel any trouble in your smaller knuckles when punching, first make sure your hands are wrapped properly in that your hand-wraps do not impede your ability to make a good solid fist (i.e. too much bandage over your palms). The same applies with gloves, make sure you can make a proper fist with them on. Wrapping your fingers around the bar of the glove will help too, as well as to ensure that the small metacarpals in your hand won't shift around when you punch. Then assuming you're throwing your punches properly, and aren't coping a hand injury, the three-knuckle landing as advised by Dempsey should be fine.

Landing with the other knuckles can depend. Say for instance with a long overhand right, the larger knuckles may be better suited, since the force may not be distributed equally if attempted to land with the three knuckles instead. The same maybe true with a jab thrown in an arc to get around a guard.

Thanks Chris, especially the additional information about the wraps and gloves as I think I might need to pay a little more attention to this.

Do you think the differences in the various strikes you describe require conscious effort, or is that just the result of the angles and directions?

Yesterday, I adopted a 'gel wrap' glove-like substitute for my Mexican wraps. They're Title fingerless, and mostly palmless, gloves with gel on the striking surface and a length of wrap for finishing the security.

My hands are large enough that I already have trouble getting into the gloves unless I turn them just right.

And the gloves don't seem to bend fully, e.g., not quite enough to pull the finger tips easily down and away from the target -- my finger tips are right at the end of the gloves.

I also need to practice with Dempsey's advice to aim with the ring finger to hit with the last three knuckles.

Does any of this make an actual difference?
--
Herb

It'd probably take some conscious effort at first, perhaps a little more so with hooks. I also noticed in Dempsey's book that he emphasized the three knuckle landing with all of the various punches. It might help to take off your gloves and see how your punches would land for a better idea.

I haven't used the gel-wrap before, so I can't really comment on it. As for gloves, they do come in sizes that accommodate larger hands. It'd be worth checking out. As for feel, I had a good experience with Ringside gloves, larger Reyes are nice too, although pricey. Everlast wasn't too bad after becoming well worn.

It's just too bad that there's such a limited selection at sporting goods stores. The best way is probably to order them from catalogs or online, and if you don't like it send it back and try another pair.

I bought really cheap Everlast gloves for my starter pair -- not even leather. I figure by the time I tear up the surface that the foam padding will be going and I will know more about what to buy next. (And, I did order them online.)

My index finger knuckles (mostly on my right/power hand) first started getting a little sore last week so I ordered the gel wraps.

Wore them second time today, and they weren't helping much -- neither better nor worse really as far as I can tell.

The pain isn't a big deal, except if it is a warning of either doing something wrong or that it will get worse.

None of the pain has much to do with my question about which knuckles to use but came up from reading Dempsey and questions of others at the gym.

--
HerbM

So I went to the noon boxing class today and when it came to the heavy bag my power-right hand index knuckle was still VERY slightly sore so I concentrated on hitting with the smaller knuckles.

Here is what happened:

1. It didn't hurt so that was an improvement
2. It seemed like I was hitting harder (very subjective)
3. It seemed that I was rotating better (shoulders/waist)

Subjectively it really did feel like I was getting a better line (Dempsey calls it the "power line") from the foot to the knuckles.

This and the slightly improved rotation would actually make for a harder hit.

So for now I am a (tentative) believer.

Thanks for the help.

--
HerbM

Hi Herb, that's nice to hear.

Another quick tip for the heavy bag is to not try hard to move it. Now I'm not talking about pushing your punches, but rather that you shouldn't succumb to the inclination to constantly hit hard. Especially when working with a harder/stiffer bag, which otherwise would lead to sore hands and shoulders.

Opt for a softer or lighter bag if available. Keep moving instead of trying to move the bag. A little push to get the bag swinging is fine, but don't try to get the same effect with your punches. This is just a simple suggestion, and not meant to be criticism.

[Chris, I know you are just being helpful and you really don't even have to apologize for any criticism -- I am pretty egoless in this whole thing. I am not trying to prove how great I am, just trying to incrementally get better. I appreciate ALL of your help.]

Bag choice is coach's -- he assigns us to bags, and yes, I likely bruised the knuckles on the hardest bag. He has generally avoided assigning me to that bag, but not this time.

We do move when we hit -- as soon as we quit being absolute newbies, coach has us move and hit.

Yes, I am hitting hard -- really hard for me -- and hoping to hit even harder, but mostly I am working on hitting harder with the jab and letting the power hand take care of itself (but that is the knuckle that primarily hurt.

Today, I did three classes. Our classes are not heroic, but they are pretty serious (about 1:30 of constant moving). That was a lot of hitting, and with your (and Dempsey's) guidance the knuckle not only didn't bother me through all three classes -- in fact it seems to be a little better even. (Of course this was never a 'bad' pain, just a small irritation that I didn't want to get worse.)

--
HerbM

A follow-up to confirm the posts above:

I am sticking with the idea of AIMING with the Ring Finger to achieve a 3-knuckle landing (Small, Ring, Middle).

It is far more comfortable now that I am hitting harder, and it seems to be more powerful, mostly due to helping with shoulder and hip rotation.

One other thing (I have never seen this listed among "how to punch harder tips" in any book or forum, but do believe I have seen it mentioned casually as a separate item):

I am concentrating on hitting not just with the Ring finger knuckle but hitting a specific spot on the bag. I sport a label, bag scuff, sweat drop, whatever and AIM my ring finger knuckle at that exact spot as the bag moves.

This seems to have a bunch of advantages, including that eventually hitting someone perfectly on the chin (or wherever) will require accuracy.

A well-placed hit is much more likely to hit solidly and thus transfer more force being more effective (i.e., harder and sharper.)

It also keeps me focused and mentally as well as physically concentrating.

--
HerbM

Ok, I haven't properly read the responses of others who are all far more knowledgeable than me, but personally I always find that hitting with the lead two knuckles always seems to have more of an effect on the opponent. However, I have unusually prominent knuckles anyway which may have some effect on this.

Anyway that's just my 2 cents. I do think that the lead two knuckles are certainly better for straights as it keeps your balance that little bit more on point although that might just be personal perception.

Allow me to preface by saying that until a couple of weeks ago, I was totally committed to always hitting with the first two knuckles -- this came from years of bare handed martial arts training. (Although, about a year ago, my Systema instructors made the case that SOME people -- not me -- were better off hitting with other knuckles.)

Then after reading Dempsey's book I tried the ring finger aiming technique.

This method definitely has NO ISSUE of balance.

The way I do it is to roll the arm a bit more over so that my hand is beyond knuckles-up/thumb-inside (about 30 degrees), and move that target knuckle directly on center line.

At this point, the angle between my chest and arm would be (slightly) decreased if nothing else were changed, so I also rotate a little bit further and this means that the I can straighten the line between back toes and striking knuckle even more. The feeling (subjective) here is definetely one of increased power from both the extra rotation and the extra rear foot power.

It also feels looser, easier to make that turn -- the turn comes naturally without being forced. I just 'think' about the target knuckle hit and most of the rest just follows.

I have NO PROOF that this is hitting harder, but it certainly seems to be the case after a couple of weeks on the bag.

I am certain it is more comfortable for repeated hard hits on the heavy bag while wearing gloves and wraps.

BTW, my first two knuckles are large and prominent too.

At least for now, were I in a bare knuckle fight I would intend to hit with the first two knuckles (they are larger and stronger, and trained in my case) for now, and in a boxing match I would try to aim with the ring finger as Dempsey instructs.

[I cannot be sure that continued boxing practice my override my previous training at some point however.]

--
HerbM

I might give that a try then, but I've actually adapted from hitting with the last three fingers to the lead two. I think the balance thing probably is personal perception, but I always found that I was overreaching when throwing my straight right, and after switching to the lead two I felt much better balanced. I tend to turn my punch over a bit anyway, but I'll definitely give this a try. I think Jack Dempsey probably knew a bit more about punching than I do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

I might give that a try then, but I've actually adapted from hitting with the last three fingers to the lead two. I think the balance thing probably is personal perception, but I always found that I was overreaching when throwing my straight right, and after switching to the lead two I felt much better balanced. I tend to turn my punch over a bit anyway, but I'll definitely give this a try. I think Jack Dempsey probably knew a bit more about punching than I do.

---

Dempsey likely got it correct, but I didn't assume that and asked the experts here. Several experienced folks confirmed Dempsey's advice and no one argued agaisnt it so that leads me to believe is it NOT some obsolete nor eccentric advice.

As to your conjecture about balance, this reminds me that one of the reasons that I OVERTURN my hand a bit more when aiming with the ring knuckle is that this seemed more natural throughout my whole body.

It always surprises (and pleases) me when I find some seemingly trivial movement that cause my entire system to move better -- I believe this to be one of those.

I do NOT feel comfortable hitting with the ring finger unless I add that extra twist AND pull my fist over so that specific knuckle is on centerline. In some sense, that is really what I mean when I say (me specifically, not necessarily Dempsey) "aiming with the ring finger knuckle."

If I recall correctly, Dempsey didn't mention the EXTRA twist of the arm/hand.

Dempsey says,

Quote:

---

Under no circumstances, however, try to land first with that index knuckle. If you do, you'll not only break
your power line, but you may also break your wrist

---

Breaking my wrist is NOT an issue for me -- I have extremely oversized and strong wrists, and have trained for decades to straighten the line between first two knuckles, hand, and radius bone on the arm. In this position the bones are directly under 'compression' (not bending or shearing) and at their strongest.

But Dempsey's idea of the powerline intrigued me and coupled with the mild discomfort from repeated bag work it was worth investigating the change.

Cool thing is, my index knuckles hurt 'just enough' to remind me to do this consistently correctly (according to Dempsey) so practicing has very rapidly converted my punch. That very slightly sore index knuckle presents no real problem, but is just sufficient to prompt me to use this method.

Also, I want to reiterate that I am NOT just aiming with the "ring finger knuckle" but also I am aiming AT SOMETHING JUST AS SPECIFIC on the bag (or opponent). This really focuses my attention and seems to help focus power.

BTW, for those who haven't read Dempsey's "Championship Boxing", he actually claims the 'ideal powerline' would be through the little/pinky finger, but warns against this for safety reasons -- using the small finger for aiming would lead to a break if you missed slightly while hitting hard bone (e.g., skull or elbow).

All of this is covered in Section #9 -- The Powerline, starting on page 16 (of the PDF, book page numbers may vary.)

--
HerbM

Last two knuckles for me. That's what we used in JKD and we used to hit bare knuckle. Again it came down to it being a straight line through the wrist plus those two knuckles are more likely to lie flat and of course where ole Bruce learnt his boxing.
Course when your hands are wrapped it feels like your whole fist is a rock :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

Last two knuckles for me. That's what we used in JKD and we used to hit bare knuckle. Again it came down to it being a straight line through the wrist plus those two knuckles are more likely to lie flat and of course where ole Bruce learnt his boxing.
Course when your hands are wrapped it feels like your whole fist is a rock :D

---

Interesting. I am also mildly surprised when I year someone say that the last two knuckles form a "straight line through the wrist."

My first reaction is to disagree, then it occurs to me that it isn't wrong -- just different, i.e., a different bone in the arm.

While the first two knuckles can/do form a straight line through the wrist with the radius bone, the last two can/do form a straight line with the ulna.

Go figure.

In karate (including Mas Oyama and the TKD that I took in 3-4 different places) we were always taught "first two", and thus the radius line.

JKD comes largely from Wing Chun which uses primarily the last two knuckles -- thus the line through the ulna.

The key here is to get an straight rigid or unbending shaft that transmits the force from the body to the target at the moment of impact.

I replied to this a while ago & I tried hitting with the last three and to be honest I felt my power dropped. However, what it did lead me to do is focus punching power more on my big middle knuckle & having done that, I have felt a slight improvement, maybe not in power, but certainly in comfort when punching.

[FYI: I am reading, re-reading etc Championship Fighting, Inside the Ring by Ross Enamait, Boxing by Haislett, and the Champ Thomas booklets...]

When I wrote the following it turned out that I had NOT read Dempsey (Championship Fighting) closely enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HerbM

...
Then after reading Dempsey's book I tried the ring finger aiming technique.

...

The way I do it is to roll the arm a bit more over so that my hand is beyond knuckles-up/thumb-inside (about 30 degrees), and move that target knuckle directly on center line.

At this point, the angle between my chest and arm would be (slightly) decreased if nothing else were changed, so I also rotate a little bit further and this means that the I can straighten the line between back toes and striking knuckle even more. The feeling (subjective) here is definetely one of increased power from both the extra rotation and the extra rear foot power.

It also feels looser, easier to make that turn -- the turn comes naturally without being forced. I just 'think' about the target knuckle hit and most of the rest just follows.
...

---

Dempsey actually recommends turning the hand LESS for straight punches to the head when aiming with the ring finger and using the falling step.

He recommends hitting with a vertical fist -- not a horizontal one:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack Dempsey, Championship Fighting...p24 of pdf

A stepping straight punch to the head should land
with the fist in an upright position to keep the punch straight. The instant you turn your fist to land palm-down in a head punch, you will begin to
loop the punch.

---

So I was wrong.

But wait, I may have discovered something useful, too. :D

If I want to add the shoulder whirl to my punch, then overturning it definitely helps. Later in the book, Dempsey instructs on the "shoulder whirl" and does recommend turning the fist (to palm down.)

It is when adding the should whirl that turning the fist is more important and correct.

I however, was already adding the whirl to the falling step (Dempsey also indicates this can be useful), and then turning the fist even MORE seems to work for me.

I would greatly appreciate it if any of you who have read and followed Dempsey's adviced would try this on the bag.

1. Falling step punch with vertical fist
2. Falling step punch with horizontal fist
3. Falling step punch with 'overturned' fist (about 30-45 degrees past horizontal)
4. #2 with shoulder whirl -- turn shoulders almost parallel to direction of punch
5. #3 with shoulder whirl -- turn shoulders almost parallel to direction of punch
6. You can also try these without the falling step, but only (some of) the whirl.

...and let me know what you discover, feel, and think.

I get a nice loose long punch with #5 that can include the falling step or not -- I can optionally leave out the shoulder whirl depending on my target and what I want to deliver.

[Now I am working on Hooks, and having both a frustrating and very interesting time - maybe I discovered something new here, but I have to get back over to the gym tomorrow to test it out. ;)]