Which knuckles do the hitting in boxing?

[HerbM]

Allow me to preface by saying that until a couple of weeks ago, I was totally committed to always hitting with the first two knuckles -- this came from years of bare handed martial arts training. (Although, about a year ago, my Systema instructors made the case that SOME people -- not me -- were better off hitting with other knuckles.)

Then after reading Dempsey's book I tried the ring finger aiming technique.

This method definitely has NO ISSUE of balance.

The way I do it is to roll the arm a bit more over so that my hand is beyond knuckles-up/thumb-inside (about 30 degrees), and move that target knuckle directly on center line.

At this point, the angle between my chest and arm would be (slightly) decreased if nothing else were changed, so I also rotate a little bit further and this means that the I can straighten the line between back toes and striking knuckle even more. The feeling (subjective) here is definetely one of increased power from both the extra rotation and the extra rear foot power.

It also feels looser, easier to make that turn -- the turn comes naturally without being forced. I just 'think' about the target knuckle hit and most of the rest just follows.

I have NO PROOF that this is hitting harder, but it certainly seems to be the case after a couple of weeks on the bag.

I am certain it is more comfortable for repeated hard hits on the heavy bag while wearing gloves and wraps.

BTW, my first two knuckles are large and prominent too.

At least for now, were I in a bare knuckle fight I would intend to hit with the first two knuckles (they are larger and stronger, and trained in my case) for now, and in a boxing match I would try to aim with the ring finger as Dempsey instructs.

[I cannot be sure that continued boxing practice my override my previous training at some point however.]

--
HerbM

[JazMerkin]

I might give that a try then, but I've actually adapted from hitting with the last three fingers to the lead two. I think the balance thing probably is personal perception, but I always found that I was overreaching when throwing my straight right, and after switching to the lead two I felt much better balanced. I tend to turn my punch over a bit anyway, but I'll definitely give this a try. I think Jack Dempsey probably knew a bit more about punching than I do.

[HerbM]

I might give that a try then, but I've actually adapted from hitting with the last three fingers to the lead two. I think the balance thing probably is personal perception, but I always found that I was overreaching when throwing my straight right, and after switching to the lead two I felt much better balanced. I tend to turn my punch over a bit anyway, but I'll definitely give this a try. I think Jack Dempsey probably knew a bit more about punching than I do.

Dempsey likely got it correct, but I didn't assume that and asked the experts here. Several experienced folks confirmed Dempsey's advice and no one argued agaisnt it so that leads me to believe is it NOT some obsolete nor eccentric advice.

As to your conjecture about balance, this reminds me that one of the reasons that I OVERTURN my hand a bit more when aiming with the ring knuckle is that this seemed more natural throughout my whole body.

It always surprises (and pleases) me when I find some seemingly trivial movement that cause my entire system to move better -- I believe this to be one of those.

I do NOT feel comfortable hitting with the ring finger unless I add that extra twist AND pull my fist over so that specific knuckle is on centerline. In some sense, that is really what I mean when I say (me specifically, not necessarily Dempsey) "aiming with the ring finger knuckle."

If I recall correctly, Dempsey didn't mention the EXTRA twist of the arm/hand.

Dempsey says,

Under no circumstances, however, try to land first with that index knuckle. If you do, you'll not only break
your power line, but you may also break your wrist

Breaking my wrist is NOT an issue for me -- I have extremely oversized and strong wrists, and have trained for decades to straighten the line between first two knuckles, hand, and radius bone on the arm. In this position the bones are directly under 'compression' (not bending or shearing) and at their strongest.

But Dempsey's idea of the powerline intrigued me and coupled with the mild discomfort from repeated bag work it was worth investigating the change.

Cool thing is, my index knuckles hurt 'just enough' to remind me to do this consistently correctly (according to Dempsey) so practicing has very rapidly converted my punch. That very slightly sore index knuckle presents no real problem, but is just sufficient to prompt me to use this method.

Also, I want to reiterate that I am NOT just aiming with the "ring finger knuckle" but also I am aiming AT SOMETHING JUST AS SPECIFIC on the bag (or opponent). This really focuses my attention and seems to help focus power.

BTW, for those who haven't read Dempsey's "Championship Boxing", he actually claims the 'ideal powerline' would be through the little/pinky finger, but warns against this for safety reasons -- using the small finger for aiming would lead to a break if you missed slightly while hitting hard bone (e.g., skull or elbow).

All of this is covered in Section #9 -- The Powerline, starting on page 16 (of the PDF, book page numbers may vary.)

--
HerbM

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Last two knuckles for me. That's what we used in JKD and we used to hit bare knuckle. Again it came down to it being a straight line through the wrist plus those two knuckles are more likely to lie flat and of course where ole Bruce learnt his boxing.
Course when your hands are wrapped it feels like your whole fist is a rock

[HerbM]

Last two knuckles for me. That's what we used in JKD and we used to hit bare knuckle. Again it came down to it being a straight line through the wrist plus those two knuckles are more likely to lie flat and of course where ole Bruce learnt his boxing.
Course when your hands are wrapped it feels like your whole fist is a rock

Interesting. I am also mildly surprised when I year someone say that the last two knuckles form a "straight line through the wrist."

My first reaction is to disagree, then it occurs to me that it isn't wrong -- just different, i.e., a different bone in the arm.

While the first two knuckles can/do form a straight line through the wrist with the radius bone, the last two can/do form a straight line with the ulna.

Go figure.

In karate (including Mas Oyama and the TKD that I took in 3-4 different places) we were always taught "first two", and thus the radius line.

JKD comes largely from Wing Chun which uses primarily the last two knuckles -- thus the line through the ulna.

The key here is to get an straight rigid or unbending shaft that transmits the force from the body to the target at the moment of impact.

[JazMerkin]

I replied to this a while ago & I tried hitting with the last three and to be honest I felt my power dropped. However, what it did lead me to do is focus punching power more on my big middle knuckle & having done that, I have felt a slight improvement, maybe not in power, but certainly in comfort when punching.

[HerbM]

[FYI: I am reading, re-reading etc Championship Fighting, Inside the Ring by Ross Enamait, Boxing by Haislett, and the Champ Thomas booklets...]

When I wrote the following it turned out that I had NOT read Dempsey (Championship Fighting) closely enough.

...
Then after reading Dempsey's book I tried the ring finger aiming technique.

...

The way I do it is to roll the arm a bit more over so that my hand is beyond knuckles-up/thumb-inside (about 30 degrees), and move that target knuckle directly on center line.

At this point, the angle between my chest and arm would be (slightly) decreased if nothing else were changed, so I also rotate a little bit further and this means that the I can straighten the line between back toes and striking knuckle even more. The feeling (subjective) here is definetely one of increased power from both the extra rotation and the extra rear foot power.

It also feels looser, easier to make that turn -- the turn comes naturally without being forced. I just 'think' about the target knuckle hit and most of the rest just follows.
...

Dempsey actually recommends turning the hand LESS for straight punches to the head when aiming with the ring finger and using the falling step.

He recommends hitting with a vertical fist -- not a horizontal one:

A stepping straight punch to the head should land
with the fist in an upright position to keep the punch straight. The instant you turn your fist to land palm-down in a head punch, you will begin to
loop the punch.

So I was wrong.

But wait, I may have discovered something useful, too.

If I want to add the shoulder whirl to my punch, then overturning it definitely helps. Later in the book, Dempsey instructs on the "shoulder whirl" and does recommend turning the fist (to palm down.)

It is when adding the should whirl that turning the fist is more important and correct.

I however, was already adding the whirl to the falling step (Dempsey also indicates this can be useful), and then turning the fist even MORE seems to work for me.

I would greatly appreciate it if any of you who have read and followed Dempsey's adviced would try this on the bag.

1. Falling step punch with vertical fist
2. Falling step punch with horizontal fist
3. Falling step punch with 'overturned' fist (about 30-45 degrees past horizontal)
4. #2 with shoulder whirl -- turn shoulders almost parallel to direction of punch
5. #3 with shoulder whirl -- turn shoulders almost parallel to direction of punch
6. You can also try these without the falling step, but only (some of) the whirl.

...and let me know what you discover, feel, and think.

I get a nice loose long punch with #5 that can include the falling step or not -- I can optionally leave out the shoulder whirl depending on my target and what I want to deliver.

[Now I am working on Hooks, and having both a frustrating and very interesting time - maybe I discovered something new here, but I have to get back over to the gym tomorrow to test it out. ]