I don't!
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I don't!
Vitali was basically prime when he fought Lewis and Lewis werent yet he still beat him prime Lewis would have destroyed him.
Nope dont even think he had the right style to get lucky either.
Pretty much sums it up. Except I'd tone down 'destroyed' to 'wins handily'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysonbruno
No way. Lennox is a true all time great, Vitali is not. He has fought nobody of any true greatness other than Lennox who at the time was quite a bit past his best and he still lost despite putting up a good performance. Vitali is probably the best around in this era but to be fair I think this is the worst era in history of HW's. Also I think he will be beaten by Haye and though Haye was good last night and showed he has class and a new maturity to his game, he too isn't of the Lennox class IMO.
Must admit though last night is one of the greatest nights of my life, Haye was great to watch and the crowd in the MEN were in great voice. I was directly across the ringwalk aisle from some of the chelsea players and was sat directly behind Blackburns Chris Samba (Bastard). Gotta do something I wasn't expecting to do and give Ruiz a lot of credit, it was the most entertaining fight i've ever seen him in and despite taking some real hard shots was not deterred by a man he was clearly not on the same level as. I'm going to watch the 7.00pm showing on Sky tonight to see what I missed in the excitement of the fight, and my judgement could change after that but as of now the class shown by Haye to me was another indicator that he is the only threat out there to the Klits and as one of the banners in the crowd said "Haye will lick the Klits" lol.
NO. a prime Klitschko couldnt beat a past prime Lewis. Plus ones an all time great. Lewis in his prime would have won a lot easier. The division now is a far poorer division than it was 10 years ago. Lewis was dominant against far superior fighters than either of the Klitschkos are now. Absolutely no comparison.
I think for you guys to talk like he has no chance is crazy. Look what Bruno and Mercer were able to do against a prime Lewis. Vitali has a good shot against any heavyweight who ever lived because of his style, skill and physical attributes. For people to say "No, because Lewis is an ATG and Vitali is not" is absolutely retarded IMO.
In a fight, it don't matter how you're regarded, who you fought, how good your division is, ect ect. Its what you bring to the table that night. Lewis brings a lot to the table, but so does Vitali.
IMO it could go either way.
I HIGHLY disagree with that....now while I agree a Prime MOTIVATED Lewis beats Vitali 8 or 9 out of 10 times (and the majority of those fights wouldn't end in KO or even a TKO due to cuts, they last the distance). A flat Lennox Lewis gets the lights put out on him 9 out of 10 times vs a prime Vitali....the Lewis that fought Bruno, Vitali would have destroyed him for various reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
In the Bruno fight:
#1 Lennox was flat footed
#2 Wide with his punches
#3 Waiting and reacting instead of pressing the fight like he normally does
#4 His timing was well off up until he finally caught Bruno whom (unlike Vitali) didn't know what to do when he was hurt.
And let's not over look the FACT that #1 Vitali had the power to hurt Lewis (and stop him if he landed and was able to avoid the clinch) #2 Once Vitali is in his awkward rhythm he's very hard to get to and if Lewis was flat then he wouldn't be able to pressure Vitali out of that rhythm.
Just my opinion
Its not fair to say that he lost to fading lewis because Vitli was ahead on all scorecards and lewis was getting tired. It's also misleading because lewis caught Vitli with the corner of his glove and opened a cut, the worst cut I've ever seen or least clearly the worst one I can remember. That's why he won the fight, he was being out fought though. Then I guess the arguments come that well he opened the cut and stopped his man..but whatever Lewis was losing the fight and was going to lose..
I think lewis is great, but I wouldn't ride off so quickly saying Vitali doesn't belong. Vitali is a beast IMO. Came at the wrong time.
Prime v Prime Vitaly beats, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Moorer, Grant, Tua, Ruiz, Botha, Buster douglass, Seldon, Berbick, McCall, Rahman, Bruno, Bowe, HW Spinks...
If you're a Tyson fan and can't admit that, then at least one can admit that Vitaly would beat every champion that LEWIS, TYSON, HOLYFIELD all got their belts from prime v prime. Which at least puts him at the dinner table. and Honestly I think between Tyson, holy, lewis and Vitaly. Tyson would be 0-4, Holyfield 1-3, and Lewis or Vitaly would either be 3-1 or 4-0
Prime Lewis beats Prime Vitali 10 times out of 10.
Prime Vitali lost to a past it Lewis.
After re-watching the fight for... oh I dont even know how many times, I dont understand how Vitali was so far ahead on the score cards. Sure the first 2 rounds were his, but things really started to even up after that. -And they were -both- tired.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Based off the fact that Vitaly took the fight on two weeks notice, and lewis was already training...Lewis is lucky Vitaly didn't have longer to train..Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjaspy3After re-watching the fight for... oh I dont even know how many times, I dont understand how Vitali was so far ahead on the score cards. Sure the first 2 rounds were his, but things really started to even up after that. -And they were -both- tired.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Lewis shot his wad in that last round....Vitali normally takes 1 or 2 middle rounds off. I'm not arguing what happened in the fight, I'm just saying.
To think that Vitali had "no chance" you have to assume he didn't have the power or the luck of a Hasim Rahman or Oliver McCall....sorry I think Vitali had a far better shot of repeating a KO punch on Lewis than those other two guys.....it's just when Vitali fought Lennox he was unlucky, if he was luckier that cut over the eye never happens and perhaps the result of the fight changes too....but also perhaps it doesn't
the point is that Klitschko was approaching him prime when he fought Lewis in 2003 and Lewis was past his prime. A prime Lewis would have been much sharper and probably would have busted up Klitschko the same way or at least outboxed himQuote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Lewis was in shape for another fight..Vitaly had two weeks to train for fight against the hw champ...very difficult to say how that fight would have looked had vitaly been allowed to train..he may have sparked lewis earlyQuote:
Originally Posted by LBSCFCthe point is that Klitschko was approaching him prime when he fought Lewis in 2003 and Lewis was past his prime. A prime Lewis would have been much sharper and probably would have busted up Klitschko the same way or at least outboxed himQuote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
....he also approached him on Lewis' farewell fight so you could see how Lennox perhaps took preparing for Kirk Johnson a bit more serious than he was given credit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by LBSCFC
It's a tricky fight to discuss for various reasons, it was a short notice fight for both fighters, there was a bad cut that was a freak accident, and that cut ended the fight and nothing else.
Sure there were more cuts but can we say for certain that if the big cut over the eye didn't happen that any of the other cuts would have happened?
Funny. I haven't been on this forum as long as many people but even I am amazed at how many times this topic has come up again. ;)
Anyway, there is a lot of speculation, and I would like to avoid that.
But from what I can tell watching them fight,
I'm not sure Vitali's cut lowered his performance... that is unless he was unable to see out of that eye. I dont know the answer to that one because I dont believe it was stated anywhere if he could see out of that eye without problems.
Best way to sum it up is Vitali was quick to get into the rythem but Lewis got in eventually too. Both showed some good heart. Lewis wasnt the only one who had to hang on after a well placed punch. Vitali did too. I think thats the closest Ive ever seen to Vitali being in trouble, and it hasnt happened again since then.
I think a prime lewis (logically) would have put out a better performance. It just makes sense to me. Why try to write Lewis off? People seem to agree that Lewis on that night was not a prime version.
Lewis had yet to reach his prime when he fought Bruno...Or Mercer...Mercer in 1996 was hell for anyone ever..His chin was granite and he never stopped coming forward.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Lewis prime started around the Golota fight IMO even after
Not too mention neither man had ever faced another opp who was as physically strong as the other...Sure Lewis had met Akinwande and Grant but Akinwande was garbage and held for dear life and Grant was just destroyed with no chance what so ever to even land a shot....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle....he also approached him on Lewis' farewell fight so you could see how Lennox perhaps took preparing for Kirk Johnson a bit more serious than he was given credit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by LBSCFC
It's a tricky fight to discuss for various reasons, it was a short notice fight for both fighters, there was a bad cut that was a freak accident, and that cut ended the fight and nothing else.
Sure there were more cuts but can we say for certain that if the big cut over the eye didn't happen that any of the other cuts would have happened?
So IMO it took both men by surprise how tough the inside fighting was...Lewis trained for a shot Johnson and trained poorly.....He was looking at a jab straight right KO by 6th fight not what was coming from a prime Vitaly
Well no we can't say anything would have happened had another thing not, there are all kinds of reasoning for this such as Lewis seeing blood and then targeting Vitalis face more frequently and gaining more confidence which he may not have otherwise, but they are only ifs and maybes. All we can go on is what happened for sure and that was that Lewis cut Vitali quite badly and that won him the fight in a very even contest IMO. Had it gone on without the cuts happening I would have gone for Lewis to win on points eventually taking over, but then again Vitali must have been losing strength and energy with the blood he was losing from the facial wounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle....he also approached him on Lewis' farewell fight so you could see how Lennox perhaps took preparing for Kirk Johnson a bit more serious than he was given credit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by LBSCFC
It's a tricky fight to discuss for various reasons, it was a short notice fight for both fighters, there was a bad cut that was a freak accident, and that cut ended the fight and nothing else.
Sure there were more cuts but can we say for certain that if the big cut over the eye didn't happen that any of the other cuts would have happened?
All in all though the thread was aimed at prime vs prime and IMO Lewis was a way past his prime whereas Vitali was pretty much peaking when they did fight so my conclusion has to be that a prime Lewis without any of the mistakes he could be prone to (see McCall I and Rahman I) would beat a prime Klitschko.
It took a long time before Lewis was recognized as a great champ. Americans just weren't happy to see a Brit champion. Now it's taking even longer for Americans to give Vitali his due. He was whipping Lewis' before and after that cut. Now the excuse is that Lewis was past his prime. LOL
p.s. I'm American and proud of it. Doesn't mean I have to be stupid about it.
He clearly wasn't WHIPPING him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hughey
too late? ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hughey
...the scorecards say Vitali was up 58-56 in a fight that got stopped in the 6th that's a pretty wide margin, consideringQuote:
Originally Posted by ryanman
And reality says that Vitali needed a new face, whilst Lewis hardly had a scratch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle...the scorecards say Vitali was up 58-56 in a fight that got stopped in the 6th that's a pretty wide margin, consideringQuote:
Originally Posted by ryanman
Please dont insinuate that because of a 2 point lead on the cards that Vitali was "whipping" Lewis. I'm sure we have seen lopsided victories on the cards where very little "whipping" took place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle...the scorecards say Vitali was up 58-56 in a fight that got stopped in the 6th that's a pretty wide margin, consideringQuote:
Originally Posted by ryanman
Despite the cards, the fight was pretty even. Now, if we have beaten this horse enough....
Come on Lyle, he wasn't whipping him was he? Winning definately, but it was a close competitive fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle...the scorecards say Vitali was up 58-56 in a fight that got stopped in the 6th that's a pretty wide margin, consideringQuote:
Originally Posted by ryanman
Obviously nobody knows what would have happened had it not been for the cut. I'm of the opinion that Lewis had really started getting to him but thats not to say I think he was on his way to victory or anything. My best guess is that it would have tightened up and both would have seen the final bell and that a good case could have been made for either when it came to scoring. I was gutted for Vitali when it was stopped and I think thats part of the reason that I have a (non-gay) affection for him now.
Not that the scorcards matter, when somebody has inflicted that much damage, but I think there is a good case that the fight was even after 6 anyway.
Yes close and competitive....a little too much so for Lewis' liking I am sure. Lennox got a little lucky, Vitali was a little unlucky and that was about it. Vitali won over the fans and Lewis got to ride off into the sunset with his legacy intact
What bothers me are the Lewis supporters that act like Lennox was going to win 100% for sure cut or no cut stoppage or no stoppage and they give Vitali less than 0 credit for taking a fight vs THE CHAMP on short notice....but they can never state enough about how Lennox was supposed to fight Kirk Johnson. Vitali was going to fight Cedric Boswell...I mean who really had to step up their game more??
What I mean by "whipping" is defined by what I saw, which was clear to me. And it's backed up by all three scorecards 58-56 (4 rounds to 2) at the time of the stoppage. And here are the punch stats, which I think are pretty impressive and tell the tale.
Total Punches
Lewis Klitschko
Landed 102 156
Thrown 222 432
Pct. 46% 36%
Jabs: Lewis Klitschko
Landed 52 77
Thrown 120 240
Pct. 43% 32%
Power Punches
Lewis Klitschko
Landed 50 79
Thrown 102 192
Pct. 49% 41%
I didn't make these up! LOL, but the stats are pretty lop-sided, and the three judges were scoring against the reigning champ. That's why I say Lewis was getting whipped.
Welcome to the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hughey
I thought Lewis - Vitali was fairly close up until the stoppage.
Well, those are impressive numbers, but at the fight's end, Lewis didnt show signs of, or look like a man who had been "whipped." Now Vitali on the otherhand... he looked like he had a rough night. So I guess sometimes numbers don't tell the whole story. And I dont mean to be sarcastic, I'm just telling like it is. I'm sure we have all seen the fight many times and have seen how both fighter looked after the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hughey
...even when Lennox Lewis has lost or been in long hard fights or been KO'd has he ever "looked whipped"? Some guys just don't cut or swell as bad as everyone else...look at AliQuote:
Originally Posted by ninjaspy3
Lewis prime would beat Vitali, no question, he fought at a better level which may be because he fought better opponents. I do not think Vitali would have beaten Hoyfield, Mercer and Rahman any better than Vitali could.
Ray Mercer gave Lennox Lewis a tougher fight.
Agreed those number's don't tell me anything new, of course Vitali Klitschko landed more punches and was ahead in the fight early on. We all know that already, its the fact that Lennox Lewis was coming on in the middle rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjaspy3Well, those are impressive numbers, but at the fight's end, Lewis didnt show signs of, or look like a man who had been "whipped." Now Vitali on the otherhand... he looked like he had a rough night. So I guess sometimes numbers don't tell the whole story. And I dont mean to be sarcastic, I'm just telling like it is. I'm sure we have all seen the fight many times and have seen how both fighter looked after the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hughey
When he wrecked Vitali Klitschko, with a vicious uppercut in the 6th round. Vitali Klitschko done virtually nothing after that, and was holding on at the end of the 6th round.
Lennox Lewis was gonna get him, and especially with Vitali Klitschko's horrendous cut, how much longer could he have gone on ? and is risking your eye sight worth it ?
Wow so Lennox Lewis was 2 rounds down, like no fighter has ever comeback from only 2 rounds down. Its ridiculous i've never seen a fighter get so much credit for a losing.
I like Vitali Klitschko but come on facts are facts, he lost. Lennox Lewis wasn't in his prime. But then again i still think Vitali Klitschko gives him fits at any point in his career.
And lastly i call whipped.
Joe Calzaghe vs Jeff Lacy
James Toney vs Iran Barkley
This fight was neither it was a good see-saw battle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAgreed those number's don't tell me anything new, of course Vitali Klitschko landed more punches and was ahead in the fight early on. We all know that already, its the fact that Lennox Lewis was coming on in the middle rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjaspy3Well, those are impressive numbers, but at the fight's end, Lewis didnt show signs of, or look like a man who had been "whipped." Now Vitali on the otherhand... he looked like he had a rough night. So I guess sometimes numbers don't tell the whole story. And I dont mean to be sarcastic, I'm just telling like it is. I'm sure we have all seen the fight many times and have seen how both fighter looked after the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hughey
When he wrecked Vitali Klitschko, with a vicious uppercut in the 6th round. Vitali Klitschko done virtually nothing after that, and was holding on at the end of the 6th round.
Lennox Lewis was gonna get him, and especially with Vitali Klitschko's horrendous cut, how much longer could he have gone on ? and is risking your eye sight worth it ?
Wow so Lennox Lewis was 2 rounds down, like no fighter has ever comeback from only 2 rounds down. Its ridiculous i've never seen a fighter get so much credit for a losing.
I like Vitali Klitschko but come on facts are facts, he lost. Lennox Lewis wasn't in his prime. But then again i still think Vitali Klitschko gives him fits at any point in his career.
And lastly i call whipped.
Joe Calzaghe vs Jeff Lacy
James Toney vs Iran Barkley
This fight was neither it was a good see-saw battle.
:appl: well said
One last appeal to reason, then I'll quit whippin' you horses. Sometimes you have to look past the surface to see the truth. Watch the fight again, the two minutes after the doc calls the fight. Vit is screaming, begging, pleading to keep fighting. He's full of fight. Eye or no eye.
..
Yes, Vitali looks like he ran into an airplane prop. But Lewis looks like he knows he got lucky. He sure don't want to fight vitali any more.
Well I was there and Vitali was acting like a madman and not thinking straight...He has also been guilty of attacking opponents his brother lost to EG- He had to be restrained in the corner by at least 3 men when Wlad lost to Sanders....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hughey
C'Mon man you are starting to go from debating the subject to just obnoxious
He's still right, however. Lewis was very lucky, and he was behaving like a nutjob during the interview with merchant. He was very defensive and acting like everyone in the arena was completely insane for booing the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnWell I was there and Vitali was acting like a madman and not thinking straight...He has also been guilty of attacking opponents his brother lost to EG- He had to be restrained in the corner by at least 3 men when Wlad lost to Sanders....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hughey
C'Mon man you are starting to go from debating the subject to just obnoxious
Vitaly wanted to keep fighting and it was clear of that. Lewis took a giant sigh of relief then retired instead of giving vitaly a proper rematch, but I don't blame him for being smart and sensing that shark Vitaly smelled blood coming out of his old ass.