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I was disappointed with Hayes Performance I thought he could have finished Ruiz of several times but he just didnt seem botherd, he was content to just land a few big shots and back of! Did anyone else catch the other fights? None of which were any good apart from the Groves figth he wasnt to bad.
Really ? i mean what did you expect ? John Ruiz is a pretty durable guy, except getting caught cold by David Tua, he's always shown a pretty solid chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattboxingfan
David Haye boxed smart looking to counter, he scored 4 knockdowns busting up John Ruiz's face. Action wise it was ok considering John Ruiz come to fight, plus because were not exactly being treated, to much action in the HW division right now.
And David Haye is only the 2nd man to stop John Ruiz, out of John Ruiz's 55 fights. So all in all i think it was a good performance, yes ok John Ruiz isn't some great HW. And he is very limited plus he isn't exactly in his prime at 38.
But still John Ruiz is a durable guy, with some underrated wins under his belt. And he probably should of had 2 wins over Nikolai Valuev, so he was still pretty fresh.
Im not sure what you was exactly expecting mate, i don't think David Haye could of done much better.
Well from where I was it just seem'd like he hurt him a couple of times and wouldnt follow up on it. All credit to Ruiz he came to fight and pressured Haye from the go but he got hurt a few times and Haye could have pressed for the KO. Ill have to watch the video but from where I was standing he looked hurt more than once!
VS very limited power punchersQuote:
Originally Posted by ICB
He took those shots from James Toney too.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleVS very limited power punchersQuote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And Rahman's punch power was decent I thought.
Andrew GolotaQuote:
Originally Posted by LyleVS very limited power punchersQuote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Hasim Rahman
Evander Holyfield
Jimmy Thunder
Tony Tucker
Kirk Johnson
All of these guys have good power.
Rahman MAYBE.....Holyfield?!?! Evander was NEVER a "power puncher" neither was Andrew Golota. Kirk Johnson was OK but looking at the actual fight you can see why I kind of discount him. James Toney was never a proven power puncher at heavyweight.
David Tua was the only guy (maybe Rahman) that Ruiz has fought that you can say "He's a power puncher".
Well i wouldn't say Evander Holyfield is a power puncher, but he has a fair dig. He was the first guy to knockdown iron chinned Ray Mercer, he floored Riddick Bowe and had him KO'ed but had no energy, he stopped Mike Tyson, stopped Buster Douglas, ETC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
As for Andrew Golota again i agree not a real power puncher, but he still hits hard enough. Everytime i've seen Andrew Golota, he seems quite powerful to me, especially with his straight right hand, which butchered Riddick Bowe in there two fights, and made Riddick Bowe a brain damaged totally destroyed fighter.
The reason Haye doesn't go overboard when he hurts someone is Carl Thompson.
He learnt from punching himself out.
It's a positive he now fights like this not a flaw.
I still don't know how Carl Thompson, survived that onslaught from David Haye. I know Carl Thompson had experience in up and down wars. But still that was a hell of a beating, and that was a great performance from Carl Thompson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
But it was a good learning experience from David Haye, and it made him a better fighter. And even if he would of beat Carl Thompson, he would of lost to Giacobbe Fragomeni.
i was supprised on how much Haye got tagged last night and to be honest i remember thinking if that was any of the klits connecting it would be lights out for haye.
maybe i'm just not giving an old Ruiz much credit.
one thing i know is.... if Haye had have finished him in the first that would have sent out a very impressive message and i think that is the frustration mattboxingfan is getting at.
Evander Holyfield put Mercer down with a body shot, Bowe didn't fight the big boppers either, and well Douglas had been stopped before and just was in no shape to fight when he fought Evander. I give him credit for rocking Tyson though. Holyfield also used his head pretty good too, so let's not forget that.
Fenster...so he paces himself a bit? Well well well, I thought that was just a Klitschko thing.
I think Evander was a very good accumulative puncher rather than a big one punch guy, but his power was more than respectable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
....in the 1990's perhaps but not in the 2000's. The last time Evander KO'd anyone of note was Michael Moorer in the rematch in 1997.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
He is not thick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I understand why you're pissed Lyle. Haye made a Ruiz fight entertaining. That's pretty bloody amazing. Everyone ENJOYED it.
We both know it's an almost guarantee that Wlad-Ruiz would have won BORE of the year. The fight would have consisted of Wlad sticking his lance in Ruiz face on the way to a one-sided snoozy UD.
I think it was a good seasoned performance by Haye and Ruiz tried his best but Haye did not tire and was not chinny which Ruiz may have secretly hoped. Ruiz has not been at his best since that good run when he won the title against Holyfield and should retire.
Haye put on a good exciting performance.
Ruiz really surprised me though. He came forward most of the fightand you could see he really wanted to win, he was more competitive than i thought he would be. He didn't even have that much trouble hitting Haye.
Haye showed us his power as usual, and he boxed well for the most part, he probably could of taken Ruiz out sooner if he stepped on the gas a little bit sooner.
From what i seen though, I still see Haye having nothing but a punchers chance against Wlad and that still isn't a big chance considering Wlad isn't exactly easy to hit. If Ruiz didn't have much trouble hitting him then Wlad won't at all.
Haye has 0 chance against Vitali as well. Vitali can throw 100 punches a round, is durable and can bang. All that equals no chance for Haye.
What will happen when Wlad lands a flush right cross or solid left hook?
Haye will comeback with a KO right hand and a nice left hook for the way down! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Your probably right here actually but I think that is more to do with his torn rotator than he just lost his power. The lump on Rahmans head could be argued to be a result of power! Or maybe just good head movement :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle....in the 1990's perhaps but not in the 2000's. The last time Evander KO'd anyone of note was Michael Moorer in the rematch in 1997.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
....you think he'll take it that well?Quote:
Originally Posted by mattboxingfan
Well it won't be that he'll just stand there and let Wlad hit his guard for the rest of the fight like Chambers did when he landed on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle....you think he'll take it that well?Quote:
Originally Posted by mattboxingfan
I really think you are underrating just how serious a threat Haye can be to the Klits. Haye is a lot faster and hits a damned site harder than "Slow feet reasonable hand speed" Eddie Chambers. Wlad knew he could walk through pretty much everything Chambers could hit him with as he has no power at the top level yet he still wasn't confident enough to take many risks in the fight. Now I can respect that his style takes some skill and discipline but Haye will cause him trouble he has not seen the likes of in a long time even if Wlad does pull off the win, which I am not too narrow minded to completely write off at all as Wlad is a world champion fighter and has good power and Hayes biggest weakness like Wlad has to be his chin.
The biggest weakness if this fighter was to challenege Wladimir is DISCIPLINE. Wladimir doesn't hand out any gifts or openings and he WILL control pace and range....any wide "hopeful" punches thrown by this challeneger will be blocked and met with harsh retaliation.
So it's been a while since Wlad has seen a quick dangerous puncher has it? How long has it been for your boy? He's NEVER seen anyone like Wlad and as Manny Steward said about Sam Peter those many years ago "When he fights Wladimir we're going to welcome him to BIG TIME BOXING"
To be fair, I think Hayes chances against the Klitschkos have got to be just as good or better than the other HWs out there right now. Think about it. All the big names are out. The rest are overweight or just dont have the motivation. Who else is there?
To the point of the thread, Haye did good for the tools he has got. Ruiz is simply a durable guy. And dont count the Tua KO because I believe Ruiz has improved defensively and in his ability to take a hard punch since way back then.
That question could quite easily be reversed. Don't get me wrong, i'd be surprised if Haye beat either brother, but he has enough skill, movement, speed and power to at least make it interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
It's probably equally as likely that Wlad would fold if Haye landed flush, especially early on. I admit if Wlad or Vitali land flush it's lights out, but Haye's movement has been good. He needs to stop reaching with his punches, but he's working on a style that can work on the Klits.
The likelihood is that Haye goes down or out... the problem is that Wlad has to get to that point first... it's a forgone conclusion that if he hits any heavyweight with a fully loaded right on the chin then they're going down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Not the issue though.
You could ask the same question with the rolls reversed - what will happen 'when' Haye lands a flush right cross?
Fair enough response, but I think Wlad's defense is pretty underrated he's improved a lot. Meanwhile the other guy we're talking about has hands down and tries to be cute, Ruiz touched him a time or two, Barrett knocked him down...he doesn't have the best balance, he can throw wide at times, and his power at heavyweight is NOT 1 punch = lights out power....it's above average but it's not amazing.
Wlad has been caught a time or two but he hasn't been rocked in a long time, I think that's partially due to his improved confidence and better game plan, he has faith in what he does and perhaps that is a reason Chagaev didn't hurt him when he hit him and caught Wlad pretty good at the end of one round and Wlad didn't react in any negative fashion and Ruslan has decent power about average.
I just don't think anyone in the heavyweight division right now can get around Wlad's 1-2 and improved defense and hell most guys that fight him don't even try after a round or two.
Jimmy Thunder.Dear god ;D...Knocking Ruiz out in that fashion,he nearly turned his back at the end and quit...is impressive and we should all send Mr. Haye a thank you card...Holyfield can hit with sharp fast combinations and had a very underrated left hook.Hurt and stunned some of the thickest and best with it.One shot no,but a hurtful combo hitter.
Haye is pretty flawed in set up and defense.Lacks fluid combos and can be crowded and arms and legs start coming apart wide.He's a cocky puncher,lowering arms,throwing from hips at times etc.Who ever can...and they will have to....walk through his pot shot sharp and jarring one-twos stands a very good chance of exploiting his gaps.Ruiz though battered was on his feet at end and had some moments.
Thats a pretty fair assessment Lyle. Its often said that Wlad vs Haye is a 'whoever lands first' fight and to some extent I agree with that. But the thing is I would say that 7 or 8 times out of 10 it would be Wlad that lands first. That still gives Haye a 2 or 3 out of 10 chance though which I think is what most people are saying. I think most people are just saying that you shouldn't dismiss Haye's chances completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I agree. I'm watching the fight right now (just finished the fourth round) and while Haye has looked extremely impressive offensively (though I wish he'd use his jab a bit more because it was very effective), he's gotten hit by a couple of shots, mostly straight right hands, that could have him in trouble against the Klitschko's. In particular, he got tagged and staggered by a straight right in the first round that could have been devestating from a puncher like Wlad, though he wasn't obviously hurt by the punch. He also looked gassed at the end of the fourth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saddo
Aside from that though, he has looked very good. His speed is impressive and his power seems to be legitimate at HW and overall it was a very good performance.
I like brackets.
He's been fighting guys who don't have the ambition or fitness to execute any form of a gameplan that resembles anything other than survial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
...and yet guys that are better than anything your boy has stepped in the ring with.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
Wlad makes people play on his terms and nobody has the vision or the skill to take that away from him.
He's not my boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle...and yet guys that are better than anything your boy has stepped in the ring with.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
Wlad makes people play on his terms and nobody has the vision or the skill to take that away from him.
Dress it up however you like, he hasn't faced an inshape and dangerous fighter for a long time.
[quote=ono;857536]OK, whateverQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
What's the deal with all these qualifiers? In shape AND dangerous....well it's also been a while since Wlad fought a white Jamaican too ;D. Recently Wlad fights the guys that are his mandatories because SOMEONE wouldn't take a fight with him. Ruslan Chagaev was an unknown quantity due to his injury and only a 20 some fight record but I would venture to say he was "in shape" and in being unknown I would say he was kind of dangerous. Eddie Chambers at 209 was "in shape" sure he carries extra weight in order to actually be a heavyweight but he's in shape. Tony Thompson was in shape albeit he wasn't dangerous with power but he is most assuredly dangerous in terms of style. Sultan Ibragimov was in shape and dangerous although he certainly didn't fight like it. Sultan has fast hands and his career shouldn't be judged solely on how he fought Wlad or Ray Austin.
Does Povetkin qualify as "in shape" or "dangerous"??? He's next on the hit list......when has the WBA title holder fought an "in shape" and "dangerous" heavyweight???......I would venture to guess NEVER
[QUOTE=Lyle;857540]By your own words: When Valuev fought Chagaev (because you just called Chagaev in shape and dangerous) Therefore, Valuev fought an "inshape and dangerous" fighter lolQuote:
Originally Posted by onoOK, whateverQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
What's the deal with all these qualifiers? In shape AND dangerous....well it's also been a while since Wlad fought a white Jamaican too ;D. Recently Wlad fights the guys that are his mandatories because SOMEONE wouldn't take a fight with him. Ruslan Chagaev was an unknown quantity due to his injury and only a 20 some fight record but I would venture to say he was "in shape" and in being unknown I would say he was kind of dangerous. Eddie Chambers at 209 was "in shape" sure he carries extra weight in order to actually be a heavyweight but he's in shape. Tony Thompson was in shape albeit he wasn't dangerous with power but he is most assuredly dangerous in terms of style. Sultan Ibragimov was in shape and dangerous although he certainly didn't fight like it. Sultan has fast hands and his career shouldn't be judged solely on how he fought Wlad or Ray Austin.
Does Povetkin qualify as "in shape" or "dangerous"??? He's next on the hit list......when has the WBA title holder fought an "in shape" and "dangerous" heavyweight???......I would venture to guess NEVER
no matter who you rate, like or root for, we must all be in agreement that klit - haye fight should happen
i still think they both beat him but would prefer him to face Wlad as he will always have a punchers chance.
Vitali would destroy him IMO ;)
[quote=Lyle;857540]Ruiz was in shape and relatively dangerous thus why neither of the Klits have fought him.....;D (thsi should be intresting)Quote:
Originally Posted by onoOK, whateverQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
What's the deal with all these qualifiers? In shape AND dangerous....well it's also been a while since Wlad fought a white Jamaican too ;D. Recently Wlad fights the guys that are his mandatories because SOMEONE wouldn't take a fight with him. Ruslan Chagaev was an unknown quantity due to his injury and only a 20 some fight record but I would venture to say he was "in shape" and in being unknown I would say he was kind of dangerous. Eddie Chambers at 209 was "in shape" sure he carries extra weight in order to actually be a heavyweight but he's in shape. Tony Thompson was in shape albeit he wasn't dangerous with power but he is most assuredly dangerous in terms of style. Sultan Ibragimov was in shape and dangerous although he certainly didn't fight like it. Sultan has fast hands and his career shouldn't be judged solely on how he fought Wlad or Ray Austin.
Does Povetkin qualify as "in shape" or "dangerous"??? He's next on the hit list......when has the WBA title holder fought an "in shape" and "dangerous" heavyweight???......I would venture to guess NEVER
At this point in time if anyone has any kind of chance vs one of the brothers it's going to be vs Vitali, he's older, he's slower, he's not punching as hard and I think he is about at retiring age.
Wladimir is 100% on his game right now, there's not a fighter more comfortable in the ring than he is right now and from the opening bell Wlad owns the pace of a fight with only his left arm. The jab is great but the ability to hook off the jab is PHENOMENAL and the right cross is just icing on the cake.
....lots of guys are dangerous to the WBA title holder. There aren't many figthers that are dangerous to The Klitschko'sQuote:
Originally Posted by mattboxingfan
he's always been the better fighter of the 2... i just still feel he has a lennox lewis type of chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
if you can punch you have more of a chance with Wlad (Ross Purity puncher beat Wlad but lost to vitali)
if you can box your better going against Vitali (Chris Byrd boxer beat Vitali but lost to wlad)