What is your definition of 'sitting down' on your punches? I have heard several different defintions. Also what about any insight on the importance of this, and any training ideas to improve it?
Printable View
What is your definition of 'sitting down' on your punches? I have heard several different defintions. Also what about any insight on the importance of this, and any training ideas to improve it?
God.in.my.corner, you sure do ask a lot of good questions -- even when I (thin that I) know (part of) the answer they are almost always questions that I have wanted to hear answered, or else should have asked.
My understanding is that this is directly related to power by being the best or at least a good way to maintain balance as you impact.
We must in some way deal Newton's law of equal and opposite reactions; when we exert force on another (or the bag) WE are going to be forced back as much as we transmit force to him -- there is no way out of this, but there are several ways to deal with it.
To be clear, this doesn't mean we must GO BACK, only that there is a force applied to us in the opposite direction of the force we transmit.
Here are a few ways to deal with the force on us, some are better than others, some work better in some situations, and some can be combined:
- Actually move or lean backwards. Obviously, leaning backwards is usually a poor idea, but there are times, usually when pushing off rather than punching, that we want to move backwards as much as move the other person away (e.g., to just get some distance), so using the counter force to push OURSELVES off can be of some (limited?) value.
- Move forward with the punch -- the force still applies to us, but it STOPS our forwards motion rather than actually sending us to the rear. The most obvious problem with this is that we can 'run into HIS punch' and then we are impacted by not only his punch but our own forward momentum adds to it. This doesn't mean it is never used, but it must be used with great caution, care and correct timing and balance.
- Add forward forces ONLY at the time of the punch -- I mean here we don't try to move forward, but only as the punch lands we add something ELSE that WOULD have given us a forward motion, but since we meet that counter force the net result is little or know actual movement in either direction. Ideally the extra force just balances out and we remain "in balance" without having to move forward or back.
- Absorb the force using our muscles, tendons, and ligaments to act as springs -- the overall counter force is the same but the spring action lets us absorb and dissipate it over a longer time and disperse it with more control.
- Translate it into another direction -- either rotation or from our arm turn it towards the ground; this is actually more complicate and done one or more of the other methods, muscles as springs, leaning, or applying another force.
The recommendation for sitting into the punch is about AVOIDING the lean while using gravity and muscle elasticity to turn the horizontal force at the arm/shoulder into a more or less vertical force that can be absorbed by the body, especially the legs, and dissipated into the ground -- friction with the ground also plays a role here.
So we "sit" to avoid leaning; to keep the balance point over the middle of the stance or even a bit to the rear.
The sit not only avoids the lean, it uses the elasticity of our muscles and connective tissue (especially at knees and hips) to turn those forces from horizontal to vertical (dissipating them into the ground and by friction).
Dempsey's drop step is about adding another force (and maybe some momentum if you actually step forward) by using gravity asymmetrically (more on the front foot when you briefly remove it's support from the ground.)
The shoulder whirl (Dempsey describes this too but generally prefers the drop step) using TURNING motion not only to add to the forward impact but to translate between linear (front/back) forces and rotational forces.
Pushing with your back toe and turning the foot for the power hand is another method for adding forward momentum and absorbing the counter force.
Another POSSIBLE use for sitting down is to invoke gravity to create more forces using gravity (from the ground to the opponent and with the counter force back to the ground) -- this is usually done using rotation by having the front knee forward position causing the body to TURN to the inside of your lead hand (only works as I am describing it for the lead hand) -- if you put one foot forward and experiment with "dropping" at the knees (try to get that feeling of FALLING for just a brief part of a second) you will find that the front knee will tend to pull your forward hip forward (rotation) and this get added to the punch if timed correctly, and when you recover you absorb the counter force by using the elasticity of your muscular-skeletal system to rotate back rather than being pushed off balance to the rear.
Tai Chi frequently uses such tricks, and Bruce Lee's (true) 1-inch punch was working largely through this method.
I hope the above makes sense, is useful, and that I didn't mangle it too much by typing it in quickly off the top of my head.
And let's hope we get some really good descriptions and explanations of why it is important from the experts....
--
HerbM
I check the forum regularly for new posts and had hoped that somebody more learned than I would contribute further to this thread. I hope I don't take this off topic.
So, in an attempt to get the momentum going again.
I experience little breakthroughs with technique and skill building. Due to being a novice with much to learn and because I experiment and analyse a lot. This occurs frequently.
I recently have only just grasped the fundamental contribution to my punching power and speed that pushing off the floor gives me. Not the half-hearted cursory push I have been guilty of but the fully committed both feet style thrust. I relate this to the physical feeling I get when skipping rope. It all begins with the floor. I've read that many times and didn't really grasp it fully until very recently. Strangely, I learnt that by getting in to my stance in front of a wall and feeling the difference in weight and force I could push into the wall with the open palms of my hand. Moving onto shadowboxing I found my hands were propelled much faster.
At the moment I relate to "sitting down" on my punches as the moment when gravity acts on my weight at the same time the punch lands. I think of it as a result of the feet pushing.
Still getting there obviously. Somebody help please.
Gosh, I just reread what Herb wrote and feel he said it much more elequently and comprehensively.
Its all starts with the feet and knees, Hips have very little to do with it. Work on the idea Heels up Knees down, with the ears above the Coxxys, your centre of gravity always keep that line.
I understand the desire to get some useful conversation going on a topic of interest -- I get that feeling quite often myself -- but you seem to be making good progress and have a handle on it so there might not be much to add.Quote:
Originally Posted by jameso'hara
Thanks for the compliment as well -- not sure what I wrote was very "eloquent" but I did try for some level of completeness and worked for clarity (whether it shows or not.)
You might want to try the wall exercise with each of the types of force generators and dissipators that I listed and get a feel for where you get the most pressure and how it affects your balance etc.
For instance, I think you will be (a bit) surprised to see how standing in a normal boxing stance and pressing with the forward hand (like a jab) that when you drop at the knees just a little it will turn your body and press the hand into the wall....
Maybe it won't help much, but it will only take a few minutes to run through the list.
--
HerbM
Posterior chain. From the bottom of the feet to the crown of the head and vice versa.
Never really understood what people mean by sitting down on your punches. I just picture Cotto hitting the mits.
Upweighting?
When i throw for power it helps me if i dip the knee of whatever hand i throw with. For example if i throw a straight right (in an orthadox stance) i dip my rear knee, at the same exact time im pushing with my legs as well. I guess it sounds kind of wierd. Its almost two motions at once but for me its smooth and i get alot of power. If anyone can explain this better help me out. For me the sitting down on your punches would be the dipping of the knees.
To be more general i would say that someone that does not sit down on there punches is throwing arm punches. On the other hand, someone who does sit down on their punches is using there legs, hips and core body in the proper ways to get the most power from their punches.
Back to the original question here:Quote:
Originally Posted by cambay411
Since you used the phrase as a necessary component of generating maximum power, what definition are you using for this phrase "sitting down [their] punches"?
Cambay, you might have a better understanding and definition of the phrase to get us all thinking about the same thing....
Also a minor point: Couldn't one being turning without lowering, and therefore using hips, core, or shoulders?
--
HerbM
Seems to work for the front hand, but would you really do this for a rear (power) hand strike, i.e., dip the rear knee?Quote:
Originally Posted by cambay411
Are you unweighting the rear leg here, or perhaps fully unweighting the front leg and sinking into the back one (that makes sense but then both 'knees' would be flexing [slightly])?
If so, please try to explain and elaborate, or maybe their is another source for this you can point out...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbMSeems to work for the front hand, but would you really do this for a rear (power) hand strike, i.e., dip the rear knee?Quote:
Originally Posted by cambay411
Are you unweighting the rear leg here, or perhaps fully unweighting the front leg and sinking into the back one (that makes sense but then both 'knees' would be flexing [slightly])?
If so, please try to explain and elaborate, or maybe their is another source for this you can point out...?
Good question herb, thinking more into this i would say the dip in the knee for a straight right (orthadox) helps me transfer most of my wieght to my front foot while at the exact same time push with the balls of my foot on my rear foot. I also use the shift in energy to transfer power from side to side with my hips which also flows up threw my core and shoulders and finally my fist (hope that makes since lol). A better description of the motion i think is when throwing a right uppercut. Transfer wieght to front leg, dip the knee, twist the body and land the punch in one motion.
Ok. My coach would have me doing push-ups in the hundreds if I transferred most of my weight to my front foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by cambay411
I can sometimes get away with taking the weight OFF my front foot and transferring a good bit of that to my STRIKING hand (the rest goes temporarily to the rear foot) for just a 1/4 of a second during the impact -- this is what I understand from reading Dempsey.
As for doing this during an uppercut, I really don't understand that, since I am trying to drive up by straightening my already bent knees during the punch. For the uppercut I want my shoulder to get HIGHER with my body driving as my fist makes contact.
Just saying....
--
HerbM
Your front Heel is your Biomechanical break,your Hip cannot turn without assistance from the back leg, cant happen. The Drive comes from the abductors of the back leg which give drive and direction. If the Head moves balance is lost and you finnish up on the front foot, the break. Now that is where the adductors on the front leg come in to play bending the knee and lifting the foot at the same time as the back foot is doing its thing. Giving Oral stability, the Head stays where it is Balanced to Orchastrate movement
Foot should read Heel
[QUOTE=HerbM;891497]Ok. My coach would have me doing push-ups in the hundreds if I transferred most of my weight to my front foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by cambay411
I can sometimes get away with taking the weight OFF my front foot and transferring a good bit of that to my STRIKING hand (the rest goes temporarily to the rear foot) for just a 1/4 of a second during the impact -- this is what I understand from reading Dempsey.
As for doing this during an uppercut, I really don't understand that, since I am trying to drive up by straightening my already bent knees during the punch. For the uppercut I want my shoulder to get HIGHER with my body driving as my fist makes contact.
Just saying....
Herb wieght was a bad word to use there, i should have said energy. Also i would have to say your right i would not transfer all the my wieght or energy to my front foot, as i maintain a good stance and balance throughout. As far as the knee dip, maybe a better way to describe that would be to "turn the knee in". The main objective of this motion is not to drop the knee but to turn your body into the punch. On my right uppercut in an orthadox stance i turn the rear knee in while at the same time pushing with the balls of my rear foot. And all this energy i create sling shots into a strike. Thanks for helping Herb tell me anything i can do to improve my technique.
I think maybe some of my confusion is just due to your description, and maybe if you were showing it on video it would make (more) sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by cambay411
Again, though, I don't see how turning the front knee inside on a read hand punch could ever work. The effect would be to turn you back towards the rear hand (the wrong way.)
For an uppercut, not sure what turning "the rear knee in" would do, but we were early talking about dipping, weighting (or energy), or otherwise moving the FRONT KNEE even for back hand shots.
My guess is that if someone turns the rear knee in during an uppercut, this is just going to be awkward.
I know that it feels natural to me to turn my (striking hand) foot towards the center (clockwise for left, counter for right) but my coach doesn't want me doing that -- although he'll ignore a LITTLE bit of this if I don't emphasize it too much. As my shoulders/hips twist (for hooks) and extend (for uppercuts) it seems to make sense to just reposition my feet (by turning not lifting or stepping) to help control and direct the momentum as the strike occurs.
BUT don't BELIEVE me on hooks or especially uppercuts. Mine don't suck but they are far from perfect (according to my coach.) My jab(s) on the other hand are quite effective, both at setup and power (when I want that.)
I am doing my best to keep about 60% of my weight on my rear foot, even during a punch, unless I am CERTAIN of striking solid, and then at the last moment that Dempsey step seems to work very well for power on straight punches.
Shoulders and hip turning for hooks, shoulder and hip uncoiling for uppercuts.
Freddie Roach has some videos on YouTube for this stuff, and some of the coaches here do too, maybe Fran's MyBoxingCoach.Com.
Roach is the trainer with the MOST world champs (currently, and second only to HIS coach Eddie Futch), so I tend to believe him, except that when he disagrees with MY coach he isn't there to do my push-ups ;D
--
HerbM
Interesting Herb. I would say when i throw a punch with my lead hand i have about 60 percent on my front foot and 40 on the back, if that, has i stay pretty balanced. With my rear hand it is opposite. And when i say turning the knee in, it is a dipping kind of motion. My knee is pointing toward what im punching (i really wish i could show you this). Also, with whatever hand i strike with, i do turn that foot in with a squashing a bug or putting out a cigarette type motion (like i step on a bug then turn my foot in to grind and make sure i got it). If i throw a punch with my lead hand i actaully step into it and turn my foot in, with my rear hand i do not step i just turn my foot in. While i am punching i am on the balls of my feet. This is wrong? I am sorry because i am doing a horrible job describing this.
It doesn't sound right to me, BUT I am NOT qualified to tell you it is wrong.
I can ask questions, and tell you what my coach tells me, what I have read (Dempsey, Haislett, Frazier, etc), or what works for me.
The main reason I hear for not sending weight forward is that you run into counter-punches or you can't move freely until you put that weight back into the rear leg.
--
HerbM
The only time i go 60 percent wieght on the front leg would be on a power punch. Otherwise i stay pretty much balanced. Also all these movements i am talking about are small subtle movements. Like when i dip my rear knee, i turn my rear foot in and barely rotate that rear knee inwards. I will say i worked on taking some wieght off my lead foot and went 60 rear and 40 front. I seemed to be able to throw nice hard and crisp punches like this.
Well, if this discussion is helping you to find ways to improve your punches then it is well worth while to me as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by cambay411
Supposedly (I believe the following MOSTLY because I was told this), keeping the weight to the rear keeps us out of a lot of trouble, so if that is true and you have nice hard and crisp punches that would be a very good thing.
But, hey, I got yelled at again yesterday for no "turning my hips" on a hook, when I absolutely know for a fat that I am not only "turning my hips" but also HITTING WITH MY HIPS, i.e., driving the entire punch from my hips.
My suspicion is that Coach means something else, because when he demonstrated he turned his hips LESS -- unfortunately, he's not a "talker" and it was right at the end of the last round so I will ask today...
--
HerbM
Maybe your turning more at the waiste and not fulling turning your hips? Whatever the case im sure you will get it straightened out. Please keep me updated on what your learn from your coach. It seems like he knows the sweet science pretty well.
Turns out that in shifting outside, I was shifting further forward than he approves (out onto my front foot for a left hook) -- had very little to do with turning the hips, but rather that thing about keeping the weight BACK again.
My hips have really crappy flexibility (my knees too) so that is always an issue for me to go low and still keep my form upright (and therefore back). My head and shoulders tend to go forward as I squat, even though I work on this every day.
Mostly, it was just that he isn't always very clear about what he REALLY MEANS, even though he is generally a really good coach.