Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Both of these fighters should of had much more heralded careers IMO. Just curious as to who people view as the biggest squanderer of God given ability between the two....and why?
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
I don't think either had a "bad" career.
McCall had serious mental problems what with his crack addiction and stuff. I don't think he was that talented. What a chin he had though - inhuman.
Zab was very talented but a mental midget. It's just as important to be strong mentally as physically. He got what he got.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
I don't agree with this lack of discipline shit expecially with Judah, just because he had crazy skills there is alot more to a fighters make up than that, he just didn't have the whole package to make him a great fighter, nothing to do with discipline.
He said for the Cotto fight he was in the best shape of his life and was battered silly by a fighter who is just all round a better fighter plain and simple imo.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Yeah basically what has been said here so far. You can't really look at either of them as squandered talent, because they were elite fighters for a decent chunk of time. Both guys had some serious demons in one way or another and neither were mentally strong. The fact that they both have a screw or two loose probably lent to their success in the ring as much as it detracted from it in a way, you really can't overstate how imporant a fighters mentality is during training or the fight itself.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
The rumors of Zab Judah squandering his money, out all night in Vegas and under training have been one after another throughout his career. There has to be some truth to this. He is a wealth of talent, and could have gone down as one of the best ever. His 2nd worst decision was having his father in his corner for all those fights. He could have used a good tactician to teach him how to deal with different fighters better, and to keep it together down the stretch.
And, don't give me the Cotto/Judah fight as a reference. Judah took 3 horrific low blows in that fight that were just ungodly. Cotto should have never been allowed to fight that way without consequence. And Judah almost had him down/out of there at a couple points in the fight. One, being right before Cotto punched him square in the nuts-suck
I don't really get Oliver McCall. He was just huge powerful and obviously in incredible shape for fights. But I just didn't watch enough of him to know what the deal was. The guy has been in the ring with everyone, and is a dangerous fight for anyone even at 40+yrs.
I have to go with Judah by way of ignorance to McCall's career.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonnyFolds
The rumors of Zab Judah squandering his money, out all night in Vegas and under training have been one after another throughout his career. There has to be some truth to this. He is a wealth of talent, and could have gone down as one of the best ever. His 2nd worst decision was having his father in his corner for all those fights. He could have used a good tactician to teach him how to deal with different fighters better, and to keep it together down the stretch.
And, don't give me the Cotto/Judah fight as a reference. Judah took 3 horrific low blows in that fight that were just ungodly. Cotto should have never been allowed to fight that way without consequence. And Judah almost had him down/out of there at a couple points in the fight. One, being right before Cotto punched him square in the nuts-suck
I don't really get Oliver McCall. He was just huge powerful and obviously in incredible shape for fights. But I just didn't watch enough of him to know what the deal was. The guy has been in the ring with everyone, and is a dangerous fight for anyone even at 40+yrs.
I have to go with Judah by way of ignorance to McCall's career.
You mean sound effects and demonstrating how to punch your opponent isn't effective? I think the worst punishment in the world would be to have to sit behind the Judah family at a movie theater watching a scary/action movie:o:o:o:o
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
I gotta disagree, zab is a big waste of his potential. I don't see anything in zab's record that shows any type of greatness. He beat witter and since has really not beaten anyone of major significance. Most of his hype was based on potential, not what he's actually done in the ring. It's a huge mixture of dicipline and focus that is his problem.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Interesting pairing and I really see them like a man/ boy contrast. While Judah is far more naturally gifted he's always been the choreographed runner up talking the loudest but saying the least. Fell victim to his own hype and when the chips were down he faulterd mentally and physically. Peel away the shine and really....his biggest conquests were...Ward (who basically had two careers) Witter and Spinks, cough.*
McCall was just what you see is what you get. With one glaring exception I'm not sure he has had mental lapses in action,though the drugs would suggest otherwise and may have help him see his way through those punches. He was always very strong, durable and as much a threat at the end of a fight as in the beginning.*
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mar
I gotta disagree, zab is a big waste of his potential. I don't see anything in zab's record that shows any type of greatness. He beat witter and since has really not beaten anyone of major significance. Most of his hype was based on potential, not what he's actually done in the ring. It's a huge mixture of dicipline and focus that is his problem.
Bingo.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonnyFolds
The rumors of Zab Judah squandering his money, out all night in Vegas and under training have been one after another throughout his career. There has to be some truth to this. He is a wealth of talent, and could have gone down as one of the best ever. His 2nd worst decision was having his father in his corner for all those fights. He could have used a good tactician to teach him how to deal with different fighters better, and to keep it together down the stretch.
And, don't give me the Cotto/Judah fight as a reference. Judah took 3 horrific low blows in that fight that were just ungodly. Cotto should have never been allowed to fight that way without consequence. And Judah almost had him down/out of there at a couple points in the fight. One, being right before Cotto punched him square in the nuts-suck
I don't really get Oliver McCall. He was just huge powerful and obviously in incredible shape for fights. But I just didn't watch enough of him to know what the deal was. The guy has been in the ring with everyone, and is a dangerous fight for anyone even at 40+yrs.
I have to go with Judah by way of ignorance to McCall's career.
Well how about we take every single fight he has had since 2005 of any significance? We have these threads about Judah all the time they are pathetic in truth his mental game is part of his make up end of story he has shown time and time again he is just not good enough over 12 rounds at the top level no disgrace with that but it's a fact.
We could sit all day and pick at certain fighters attributes and say imagine if fighter A had a chin or fighter B had stamina etc etc.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Judah has/had wayyy more talent than McCall, so I would have to say that Judah wasted his talent more.
Still he was JW and WW champion of the world. And may grab a title at JW yet again.
And he went tit for tat with Floyd Mayweather for the first 8 rounds or so of their fight as well as dropping Mayweather and not gettin credit for it.
So not too shabby...
I think McCall aside from the second Lennox fight, really made the most of what God gave him.
Which is a huge physique, a GREAT chin, and some pretty good power.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
ZAB....
If Zab had the right teaching with his talent he easily could have been undefeated on the night that he faced Floyd and would have stood a very serious chance in beating him...
He could have easily beaten KT, Spinks, Baldomir, clottey, cotto...
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonesJrMayweather
ZAB....
If Zab had the right teaching with his talent he easily could have been undefeated on the night that he faced Floyd and would have stood a very serious chance in beating him...
He could have easily beaten KT, Spinks, Baldomir, clottey, cotto...
Judah has no one to blame but himself, he lost due to his lack of focus and for being weak mentally not because he wasn't taught how to use his talent, and i don't think he ever would have EASILY beaten Clottey, Tszyu, or Cotto
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
I think Zab Judah had actual boxing talent and at times he refused to throw punches, he refused to be active in the ring, and he got cocky plenty of times and it cost him: Tszyu, Spinks (he could have EASILY won that first fight), Baldomir, and hell had he been 100% focused vs Floyd he could have won that fight.
McCall as Manny Steward said "Was just a club fighter"....he had big power, a great chin, but no real SKILL. He got lucky vs Lewis, he probably could have been managed better but that's about it.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonesJrMayweather
ZAB....
If Zab had the right teaching with his talent he easily could have been undefeated on the night that he faced Floyd and would have stood a very serious chance in beating him...
He could have easily beaten KT, Spinks, Baldomir, clottey, cotto...
Judah has no one to blame but himself, he lost due to his lack of focus and for being weak mentally not because he wasn't taught how to use his talent, and i don't think he ever would have EASILY beaten Clottey, Tszyu, or Cotto
"We all hit the bag the same, we all run the same, we all jump rope the same"
That means that the one who can apply those abilities in a manner in which they were taught or disciplined to do will most likely win. His father was a shit trainer, period. With his speed, power, and athleticism he easily could have been undefeated up until the fight with floyd.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Judah just never improved as a fighter, he had wholes in his game that were always there and never went away. He would make mistakes someone just turning pro would make; pulling straight back with his right hand low, trying to go for the 'home run' all the time rather then just winning rounds behind his pure boxing ability, not throwing enoug punches etc. This is just because either Zab is a knucklehead who didn't think he had any room to improve or because his dad was his trainer and like the rest of the world, Zab didn't know wtf his dad was sayin 90% of the time. Who knows, Zab can still be a player though his physical abilities have definitely fallen off a notch and that's sad to see. I guess you can only drink so much Patron before you start to wane physically though. Zab is definitely the answer to this question though. I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous but this is the guy who people had called 'Whitaker with power' coming up. I know that was ridiculous then to bestow somebody with that moniker but it is indicative of the raw talent he had. The Carlos Baldomir fight is kind of indicative of Zab though. He had all the momentum in the world, took a Spinks rematch for no money in his home town and beat his ass. He was working Baldomir over like he should have for the first 7 rounds, got hurt because he did one of his lazy mistakes of moving straight back in the path of a right hand and just never recovered. When you're that fast and things aren't going your way, you're not landing clean, you must win off activity. Judah did the inverse and tried to win on the home run.
Something he should have learned from the Rafael Pineda fight, or the first Spinks fight, but he never learned. Guys with a little bit of craftiness to them are always going to trouble Judah even if they don't half of the physical ability. Usually a fighter picks up that craftiness as their career progresses, Judah just never learned.
Still though, PEOPLE'S CHAMP BABY P4P NUMBER 1. JUUUUUUUUUDDDDAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
The mental aspect of Boxing is just as important as the technical aspect. Zab never had it upstairs, and he never really became anything other than potential. He is what he is.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
Well yea that's the point of the thread, Judah's lack of discipline cost him more. And to illustrate how much it cost him, he is a 2 weight champion and still pretty much didn't fulfill anything close to what his potential was.
Re: Oliver McCall or Zab Judah...whose lack of discipline has cost them more?
The Zab Judah story is one that has polarised opinion for years on this forum. He won his first 28 fights and was undefeated for 5 years (Witter, Ward, Green, Millett were all victims) then whammo he gets nailed big time and despite his protests he owes Jay Nady a debt of gratitude for saving his life that night.
2004 was the year of mystery, he loses to Spinks and was very lucky to get the decision against Pineda, he then beats Spinks in the rematch in perhaps the best performance of his career, then inexplicably loses to Baldimir! He certainly hasn't ducked anybody, Cotto, Mayweather, Clottey yet has not been able to score a win against a genuine A grade fighter? I really don't know what to make of Zab and what his future holds, Amir Khan perhaps? Hatton down the line? He has one last roll of the dice at 140lb and about 12 months to do something about it, i'm not sure about the discipline factor anymore. This is a guy who had all the talent you could wish for from a fighter, but like a lot of sports sometimes it has a lot to do with what's going on above the shoulders more than anything else.