Boxing News
I pretty much agree with this article.
Printable View
Boxing News
I pretty much agree with this article.
i like it mate and i agree
all i hear is how crap the heavyweights are at the minute
they arent, the klits and maybe haye would have lived with any heavyweight of any era, the klits in particular are just so far ahead that its hard to form rivalries at the top
the second tear of heavyweights would have given fighters like tyson and ali a much tougher test than they do the klits, if tyson and holyfield were around today instead of the klits everyone would be raving about the division
i think the lack of an american anywhere near the top is a problem, and is what gives the division more of a bad name
I agree, I think the Klits are starting to prove they would be rather dominant in any era except maybe against Lennox Lewis. The more they fight the less I can think of anyone else that I would favor to beat either of them more often than not. I am also trying to remember a heavyweight or even any fighter who has been this dominant over opponents for as long as Wladimir Klitschko has. He has literally been fighting the top opponent available for nearly 5 years and he has barely lost a round.
if them 2 were american the americans would be raving about the HW division
and yeah, neither of them seem to ever loose a round nowadays and yep they would probably dominate any era
if only they werent so dull
It's always been my opinion that there are very few really golden eras on Heavyweight boxing. I think perhaps only 2 infact - The era of Ali, Foreman, Frazier & Norton and the era of Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis & Tyson (although they were all at deifferent stages of careers and didn't all fight at thi time) There has always been 1 or 2 dominant fighters and then a lot of average to good contenders. I thnk the 'contenders' in the two era I mentioned were probably better than any other era including the current one. E.G Ray Mercer, Tommy Morrison, Michael Moorer, Razor Ruddock to name a few a far better than today's offering, outside of the Klits!
i dont think you are right
i think they look worse because the klits are so much better
they are bigger names but not neccessarily better boxers
Fair play mate it's all subjective, but I'm pretty sure if we actually looked at the top 10 'contenders' for example from 1992 and pitched them against the top 10 'contenders'' of today I don't think the majority would see many favourable outcomes for today's bunchQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
ICB -please do the match ups ;D
I think the problem with boxing in general is the media (especially the American and British media) don't address the issue of the "talent gap" between the Klitschko's and their opponents in a positive light. Sure both have their reasons for doing so but the boxing commentators these days are doing the fans of the sport a great disservice by always (and I do mean ALWAYS) complaining about styles and how boring and blah blah blah....meanwhile you look at UFC, sure they have their fair share of bad fights, but their commentators USUALLY point out the good things. If you watched Edgar vs Penn II you basically see a rudamentary boxing match, but you listen to Joe Rogan and it's the greatest most wonderful awe inspiring match ever on the other hand you watch Klitschko-Peter II and all you hear is Teddy Atlas bitch about Wlad holding and Sam Peter not working on the inside, "making deals with himself", and you never hear much about Wlad openning up, they may have said 2 words about Wlad using the uppercut, Brian Kenney did try to keep Teddy from being so hard on the fighters, but the fans watch but they also listen and if you tell someone "look for the holding" odds are they'll see more of it, if you tell them to "watch for the power punches" odds are they'll see more of it. They never say "watch for Floyd's elbows" or "watch Floyd try not to engage his opponent until the end of the round" whenever he fights, so why be so hard on the Klitschko's? The British media (really one person specifically) doesn't give the Klitschko's their due credit, but I will say, the way they hype up Chicken Little and the way they've hyped up Audley Harrison to be a "dangerous challenger" is a big step in the right direction...I just wish that there weren't so many "homers" in boxing...I mean Larry Merchant and Cris Arreola was laughable...as was the British commentators describing John Ruiz getting repeatedly rabbit punched as some sort of cheeky attempt to have a point taken from his opponent
another haye hating post
i am starting to get the gyst of this forum
Lyle thats a blatant LIE! :mad:
What's a lie about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
The guy is talented but you've got to understand, when people are doing all these "look at me, look at me" attention whore things, they can't expect people to look past certain things. Its not all going to be good for the guy. Had he been humble and respectful, there's more of a chance that people like myself would give him the benefit of the doubt....but the dude is an asshole, he's a talented fighter but he's an asshole, and he CHOSE to be one.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThe guy is talented but you've got to understand, when people are doing all these "look at me, look at me" attention whore things, they can't expect people to look past certain things. Its not all going to be good for the guy. Had he been humble and respectful, there's more of a chance that people like myself would give him the benefit of the doubt....but the dude is an asshole, he's a talented fighter but he's an asshole, and he CHOSE to be one.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
how old are you?
...Are you kidding me?
are you kidding me?
I would argue that a lot of these guys like Peter in shape, Povetkin, Eddie Chambers in shape, Chagaev, Ibragimov would do really well in any era of boxing. I think they could beat a lot of the guys from the 90's, and maybe even guys like Holyfield, Bowe, and Tyson on the right night.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
I think guys like Lewis and the Klitschko brothers are a new breed in boxing that simply have too much size and athleticism for them to lose baring poor preparation or a special punch landing. Wladimir used to be less defensively aware and he used to get caught with stupid punches considering his chin. I don't think its a bad thing he takes his lack of punch durability into account when he fights. Vitali looks awkward as hell, but he is undeniably effective.
Let's get to the point...."I know you are but what am I?".....Infinity!Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
Infinity and 1Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongLet's get to the point...."I know you are but what am I?".....Infinity!Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
ha you cant beat it :lickish:
and dont say infinity and 2 coz it doesnt exist
I disagree Taeth, the Likes of Chambers, Peter, Chagaev etc would be pulverised by the likes of Mercer, Morrison Ruddock etc IMO. Christ, Chagaev got a very dodgy decision over Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethI would argue that a lot of these guys like Peter in shape, Povetkin, Eddie Chambers in shape, Chagaev, Ibragimov would do really well in any era of boxing. I think they could beat a lot of the guys from the 90's, and maybe even guys like Holyfield, Bowe, and Tyson on the right night.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
I think guys like Lewis and the Klitschko brothers are a new breed in boxing that simply have too much size and athleticism for them to lose baring poor preparation or a special punch landing. Wladimir used to be less defensively aware and he used to get caught with stupid punches considering his chin. I don't think its a bad thing he takes his lack of punch durability into account when he fights. Vitali looks awkward as hell, but he is undeniably effective.
As for Lennox, he was a great HW but the 2 best names on his record were both past their best when he fought them. Now I always think Lewis-Tyson would be a tough one to call if you could put them in together prime for prime and I would probably still just swing for lennox but I think the Holyfield who battered Douglas or the man who beat Bowe in the rematch would have just been too good and too relentless for Lewis. IMO Evander should have called it a day after the Lennox fights and by now he would be regarded as the 3rd greatest HW of all time.
I'd love to be able to take a prime Muhammad Ali (whenever that was) and a 25 year old Foreman and put them in todays era. They would absolutely dominate IMO and Ali's speed, skill and accuracy would cause everyone including the Klits and Haye nightmares and Foremans Power would just knock all 3 clean out within 6 rounds each. Ali wasn't that bad a puncher either it's just it's overlooked a lot because it wasn't phenominal like his speed and skill and Foreman and Frazier were around Knocking everyone that moved out at the time too.
Somehow in hindsight it's very easy to gloss over the flaws of guys like Mercer, Morrison, Ruddock, etc. I'm not disrespecting your view in any way shape or form, those guys were very solid fighters, but I'm just saying it's not like they didn't have their off nights just like today's crop of heavyweight contenders. Looking back on guys like Morrison it's easy to recall his big wins and how exciting of a fighter he was, but it's harder to recall the real troubles he had with mediocre fighters that nobody thinks are good, like Michael Bentt or Joe Hipp.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
I think if we are to compare these guys we should probably compare certain fights to emphasize points for and against those contenders, eg I think Lamon Brewster could beat Tommy Morrison just based on Mercer-Morrison or Morrison-Bentt and Klitschko-Brewster I, but on the other hand I also think Morrison could outbox Lamon given Morrison-Foreman and Brewster-Lyakhovich. If you look at a whole career in an unbiased fashion you will have ups and downs and on some nights Ray Mercer should have been THE Heavyweight Champion of the world and on other nights he would be lucky to be considered a contender. The guys today can only fight who is in the division at the time, they shouldn't be judged against anyone else until their career is over or like Wlad they are a champion...then you can compare a little more fairly.
But it's ok to form some theories as to how ____ would do in today's division. I find myself wondering how Joe Mesi would handle a lot of these guys. I think that guy, although no great shakes as a pure boxer, was a very entertaining fighter and he was a very good puncher. I think he would have fallen short of a title but he would have given his all for it, it wouldn't have been some wasted opportunity. I think he would pair up well with a lot of the smaller heavyweights but perhaps Eddie Chambers gives him trouble. The bigger guys would crush him, he was too easy to hit. Mesi vs Povetkin or Boytsov would have been classic brawls (not comparing them to any of the all-time greats but the styles these guys have/had would have been great to see)!
Top 10 in 1992
1 Evander Holyfield
2 Razor Ruddock
3.Riddick bowe
4 Lennox Lewis
5 Michael Moorer
6 Larry Homes
7 George Foreman
8 Tony Tucker
9 Ray Mercer
10.frank bruno
Top 10 2010
1 Wlad
2 Vitali
3 Haye
4 Povetkin
5 Adamek
6 Chagaev
7 Chambers
8 Boytsov
9 Valuev
10 Dimitrenk
I don't see anybody from 3-10 in 2010 beating anybody from 3 - 10 in 1992 and that includes the 2 grandads!
Damn, you are right! That is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Totally Agree BIG, and I'm a Haye fan!Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
This is that moment when you go ''Oh fuck! It's TRUE!'' :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
2 divisions in class there mate.
I think in 1992 Holmes, Foreman, Bruno, and Ruddock were very beat able and IMO Bowe would have been tested by big punchers (look at his record, who's the biggest banger he fought?). Bert Cooper gave Michael Moorer hell, you've got to figure he may have had trouble with a few of the guys listed. Tony Tucker barely beat Oliver McCall in 1992, it's not unbelieveable that someone 3-10 would give him a very hard fight.
I'm not saying this is the greatest heavyweight era ever but the thing is the individual fighters have up and down years and they differ so let's not act like in 1992 all those heavyweights would just roll through this era.
No, but they were way more talented overall from 1-10 compared to this era.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I totally agree. Look at the difference in shape between then and now. They were much more dedicated fighters in those days and it showed. The 4 best conditioned fighters now are the 3 champs and Adamek and surprise surprise they are the 4 making most noise! The rest of the HW's now are all burger eating bums!Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo, but they were way more talented overall from 1-10 compared to this era.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Look at their shape, fine....but that means fuck all, look at their form. Mercer was EASILY outboxed by an ancient Larry Holmes in 92, Bowe was 100% finished in 1993, Ruddock was the Arreola/Peter of his era, big talent but never reached his true potential. Moorer was dangerous but got blasted by a 45 year old 1 dimensional power puncher...what a power puncher but very 1 dimensional. Frank Bruno was pretty much finished at the top level by 1989 (his 2nd loss to Tyson) but he was popular in England, had the fight vs Lewis, and eventually won the title off McCall after that but hell how hard is it to outbox McCall?
Lewis, Holyfield, Foreman, Mercer, and MAYBE Moorer and Bowe were more than 50/50 vs today's heavyweight top 10 but the rest of them, their best days were behind them by 1992.
I'm sorry to say this bro. But this is nuthugging to the extreme. You're seriously downgrading and dissing the 2nd greatest HW era in order to make this current era that the Klits fight in look so much better, but the truth is it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
A lot of real boxing fans have given the Klits their due as the best HWs of this era, but this era also is quite weak. That's a fact and reality, live with it. Just like Louis bum of the month club or Marciano fighting old and shot HW's. It's the reality this era is really bad and weak.
Really? I mean the primes of Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, and Lewis didn't ALL overlap and plenty of more average fighters peaked and went away during all that era. I don't think it's beyond a resonable doubt that the top 10 of today could challenge those guys. Is it far fetched for a few? Yes, but it's also not unreasonable to look at the 1992 of Ray Mercer and say Thompson and Chambers beat him easily or that you look at a 1992 Frank Bruno that gets dropped more than a few times by Arreola and Sam Peter.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
No way. I think Bruno beats both easily, and to be honest Bruno is waaaaaay worse than the rest of the list from 1992. As for Chambers and Thompson beating Mercer, again no way. I really can't believe you've tried comparing Ruddock to Arreola too. That fat fuck is shite, Ruddock was a very decent fighter. As for Big George being one dimensional, Maybe at that age yes but the same could easily be said about jab, jab, grab Wlad.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongReally? I mean the primes of Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, and Lewis didn't ALL overlap and plenty of more average fighters peaked and went away during all that era. I don't think it's beyond a resonable doubt that the top 10 of today could challenge those guys. Is it far fetched for a few? Yes, but it's also not unreasonable to look at the 1992 of Ray Mercer and say Thompson and Chambers beat him easily or that you look at a 1992 Frank Bruno that gets dropped more than a few times by Arreola and Sam Peter.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
The difference between Bruno and guys like Arreola and Peter is how well they take a punch. Cris and Sam can dish it out AND take it.
Ray Mercer got outboxed by a Larry Holmes who never won another meaningful heavyweight fight ever again after beating Ray in 1992. There's the possibility that guys like Chmabers and Thompson bother him.
Ruddock was a more polished fighter than Arreola, but he did have trouble with his weight and he didn't take care of himself and whenever he stepped up he got beat....sound familiar?
As for Wlad being one dimensional...sure, but Wlad is in his prime and athletic enough to cut the ring off and there's no where/way to hide from him in the ring....with Foreman he was slower and if he got in vs a guy that would stick and move he would be in trouble...hell Tommy Morrison outboxed him easily.
its a myth that bruno couldnt take a punch
he lost to witherspoon in round 13 was it? tim had a dig
lost to lewis and tyson who were 2 of the biggest punchers in history
and he lost in a early fight to james smith, who could punch, but it was before bruno had really developed
Agreed!!Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
Bruno could take a helluva dig, he just couldn't cover up and give himself time to recover. It was always a culmiination of punches that 'did' him
Amen, those lists don't lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
The division today is poor. The article itself even talks about washed up fighters like Hasim Rahman.
I think fanboys of the Klitschko brothers don't want to admit that their hero's are dominating a division that is weak. Not the brothers fault but it is a fact.
Cris Arreola has never knocked any contender out just lower level guys. His power is not in the same range as a natural power puncher like Bruno. If the likes of Travis Walker can put Arreola down, his chin ain't gonna stand upto too many right hands from Bruno.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
In the lists Bruno is 10th and Dimitchenko. Dimitchenko gets taken out in the sameway as Anders Eklund did.
Glad you mentioned Tommy Morrison - another contender that the current crop don't have.
I agree Foreman at that age was def slower, but to me that is testament to how great the guy really was. He was old enough to be most of the other fighters dads and he was still causing problems. I mean did you ever see Morrison fight that way ever again or before the Foreman fight? I'd have loved to have been able to stick Big Georg in his prime in with Tommy, it would have been brutal, something along the lines of the Frazier fights but Morrison wouldn't be able to keep getting up which was amazing from Joe but is totally irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong