If the Klits (or David Haye) were American do you think that the HW division would be frowned upon quite so much both within and without of the Boxing world?
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If the Klits (or David Haye) were American do you think that the HW division would be frowned upon quite so much both within and without of the Boxing world?
No it wouldnt, it would make for classic viewing because the powers that be would make sure that both guys dont fill out arenas fighting guys that are ranked #8 #9 by the wbc, wbo when they are clearly already miles ahead of everyone else as it isQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
both would of already fought the likes of haye, povetkin, valuev etc by now and both would of been conclusively rich enough to retire on their current earnings and allow the new crop to come through
are you kidding me, people were still talking shit about how bad the HW division is when guys like Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd, Brewster, and Briggs held titles, the HW is crap doesn't matter where the guys are from
Here's my take on the Heavyweight division........
1 Wladmir klitschko
2 Vitali Klitschko
3 David Haye
4 Tomasz Adamek
5 -
6 -
7 -
8 -
9-
10 -
11 -
.......
100 - All the other fat pile of shit excuses for heavy weights.
Fixed that for you ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
ElTerrible open your eyes and ears man, in the US guys that NEVER hate on heavyweights have been holding a grudge against both Klitschko's for not apparent reason. As for Chicken Little, he dug his own hole for himself....it's unAmerican to talk shit and not do anything. Talking shit and having an enemy back down is one thing, but to talk shit and never even try to back it up....that's what we call "Bush League"
Bert Sugar, Larry Merchant, and Teddy Atlas have all commented on Klitschko fights in a manner where they blew things completely out of proportion and what sucks is they are all highly respected by some boxing fans but more the average Joe's who just so happen to catch a fight. They'll see a fight and see Bert with his stogie and his fedora and recognize him and think "I can trust that guy's opinion" and then Bert spouts pure hatred and says neither Klitschko deserves to fight again and they are boring and bla blah blah.....it's not good for the sport it's not good for our boxers, it's not good for our fans, and I hate to say it because I like Bert, but it's fucking wrong. People can say all they want about how "The Klitschko's are only good because of their size" that's bullshit, they are good because of their technique, their training, their skills, their athletic ability, AND their size. There have been plenty of BIG heavyweights that have ended up only making big impressions on the canvas eg Primo Carnera whom I might add that bert Sugar said would "Kill Klitschko"....that's outrageous I think even the haters of Wlad would say he easily handles Primo. There IS a bias at least among some of the older generation.
Plenty of Americans like the Klitschko's but a few with microphones in front of them are speaking against them.
I think Americans would be a lot more excited about Haye than the Klits if they were all American. Haye is good to watch and takes risks. If Haye gets his head down and starts fighting real opponents after Audley I think he can still be a star over there.
IMO he lost his chance to win over the fans in the US by backing out of the fights vs Wlad and Vitali. I still wouldn't like the guy but I'd at least have some respect for him had he followed through with his challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
i think one thing leads on to the otherQuote:
Originally Posted by HattonTheHammerNo it wouldnt, it would make for classic viewing because the powers that be would make sure that both guys dont fill out arenas fighting guys that are ranked #8 #9 by the wbc, wbo when they are clearly already miles ahead of everyone else as it isQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
both would of already fought the likes of haye, povetkin, valuev etc by now and both would of been conclusively rich enough to retire on their current earnings and allow the new crop to come through
i think you thought you answered no but really you answered yes
Things can change in one fight though Lyle. Calzaghe had been round years without really hitting big fame, but then he beat Lacy very convincingly and bam he was a superstar.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIMO he lost his chance to win over the fans in the US by backing out of the fights vs Wlad and Vitali. I still wouldn't like the guy but I'd at least have some respect for him had he followed through with his challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
Now if Haye, a good looking (without being gay), Trash talking, exciting fighter who lets face it is in the glamour division that is short of a bit of glamour these days, does take on a Klit after Audley and does win on HBO and it is good to watch, then I think that the American public will take to him.
...it's not like he just punked out once AND beating Audley Harrison ain't gonna cut it, neither is having a rematch vs Valuev (which IS coming btw)...there's 1 way to remedy this and that for him to fight a KlitschkoQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
Fixed it again for you sunshine.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongFixed that for you ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
...I don't know much about Derek Chisora, but I know one thing, I know he'd KO Audley without breaking a sweat.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerFixed it again for you sunshine.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongFixed that for you ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
he he har har de harQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
the klits cant do no wrong can they?
NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44he he har har de harQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
the klits cant do no wrong can they?
Its kind of hard to have a meaningful fight when the division is pretty thin on legit contenders to begin with, everyone is avoiding Wlad, busy, hurt, and already signed to a different fight. Chicken Little, Povetkin, Adamek, Solis, Valuev....they can't or won't fight Wlad, what do you want the guy to do wait around for someone like Dempsey did?
There are better opponents than Chisora out there but I know where your coming from, believe me, he really he isn't that good at all. He was in a real tough fight with Sexton and Sexton was very lucky to beat Martin Rogan in the first fight. Rogan actually stopped fighting because he thought the ref should be stopping the fight and literally 1 min later the doctor stopped the fight because of a swelling Rogan had on his eye. That was the last time Rogan was the tough bastard that a lot of people had grown to love and he was not the same man in the rematch although it would be harsh to take too much from Sexton as he had improved...... Just not as much as the Sky commentators make out.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
But no I do know where you are coming from and one thing I admire about Wlad is that he remains active despite the lack of opponents. I would target someone like Arreola though if I was Wlad, Yes it is a guaranteed win, BUT it is a tougher fight than Chisora and he would get some much needed coverage in America!
Oh I would love to see that fight (Wlad-Arreola)....hopefully Cris can get his ass back in decent shape, win a few decent fights and get another crack at it. Chisora is fresh, new, and hell you never know what a kid is going to do if they get a title shot. Wlad and Manny are just going to tweak their style to create more action and more drama and hopefully it works out for them...Wlad could run the division with his outside fighter technique for a LOOOOONG time, if he goes more Lennox Lewis he's good enough to reign for a long time still but it causes a little more excitement in the division.
No it's just a poor division full stop why delude ourselves?
Poor division or no, I find it interesting and will always find it interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by piye
To answer the initial question:
Excited, No.
More accepting, Yes.
what about - less slagged off?Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
Logically, I'd assume so. They would of had a different kind of exposure via the media.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44what about - less slagged off?Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
vastly different do you reckon?Quote:
Originally Posted by J da BombaLogically, I'd assume so. They would of had a different kind of exposure via the media.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44what about - less slagged off?Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
As Americans? Fuck yeah!! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44vastly different do you reckon?Quote:
Originally Posted by J da BombaLogically, I'd assume so. They would of had a different kind of exposure via the media.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44what about - less slagged off?Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
so conclude, the HW division is rubbish because the american hws are rubbishQuote:
Originally Posted by J da BombaAs Americans? Fuck yeah!! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44vastly different do you reckon?Quote:
Originally Posted by J da BombaLogically, I'd assume so. They would of had a different kind of exposure via the media.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44what about - less slagged off?Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
or you could say
the HW is in fact alright but there arent any decent american heavyweights
think about that?
As long as America has Vegas., the biggest boxing shows will be always be in Vegas.
As long as the Heavyweight division is void of a good American, America isn't gonna have a vested interest in the Heavyweight division. This has a knock-on affect on American coverage.
American coverage is (IMO) vital in this sport at the moment. Even though the K-BROS are selling out areas in Germany, they are practically excluded from the mainstream (albeit HBO but that is effectively mainstream).
I mean things could (in theory) change whereby Germany becomes the hub of world boxing. And to be honest, with the effort they put into their shows, it could be a good thing... But unlikely.
So to answer your question, it's not really a matter of who's good because really how can you define good (or exciting) but it's just a question of who you can market.
I blame Rocky.
Scrap that, I blame Chuck Wepner :p
I don't totally agree with that. Yes it would help if America had at least one half decent HW BUT, look at Ricky Hatton and Manny Pacquiao. Neither are American yet both are/were superstars over there who people were willing to pay to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
All the HW's out there are very hard to sell for one reason or another. The Klits are boring to the non boxing purist and David Haye just doesn't fight enough, although he has the potential to be be very marketable!!
I agree with you 100% but my point is that the K-Bros are the best fighters in the (heavyweight) division. That obviously should mean they should generate the most interest if not in boxing, then at least in their own division.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuI don't totally agree with that. Yes it would help if America had at least one half decent HW BUT, look at Ricky Hatton and Manny Pacquiao. Neither are American yet both are/were superstars over there who people were willing to pay to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
All the HW's out there are very hard to sell for one reason or another. The Klits are boring to the non boxing purist and David Haye just doesn't fight enough, although he has the potential to be be very marketable!!
But they don't.
And the sad thing is, IMO if they were American (and this is by no means a disrespectful comment to any European outfits), they obviously wouldn't be any more exciting but they would at least have the luxury of better coverage and would probably be more universally respected.
Pacquiao and Hatton are more well known over here, but it has to do with fighting styles than anything. Pacquiao is especially way above Hatton in America in terms of being known because of his exciting style and keeping on winning fights. Again it has to do with a crowd pleasing mainstream action style, which sadly both Klits lack.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuI don't totally agree with that. Yes it would help if America had at least one half decent HW BUT, look at Ricky Hatton and Manny Pacquiao. Neither are American yet both are/were superstars over there who people were willing to pay to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
All the HW's out there are very hard to sell for one reason or another. The Klits are boring to the non boxing purist and David Haye just doesn't fight enough, although he has the potential to be be very marketable!!
is it a big a deal tho when in other divisions the main man isnt american?
are americans more happy to accept a non american champ?
up until the last 10 or so years the Heavyweight champion of the world has always been american, is it the quality of the fighters that has changed the overall opinion of the HW division or is it the change of nationality?
hurry up and have an opinion of your own eric, your boring me ;D
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
ok heres mine
theres nothing wrong with the HW division, in fact the two at the top are as good as (if not better than) any in history, there arent as many names running down the order but that is because the two at the top are so dominant and its harder to make a name in big fights when titles arent on the line
america is the centre of the world as far as boxing is concerned, and historically, they have always had the heavyweight champ.
The HW division will be considered rubbish by americans (where most of the "experts" ply their trade) until an american heavyweight at least looks like having a slight chance of winning a version of the title
all this talk about the HW division being crap is american propaganda
I whole heartedly agree erics44!
Prime example Bert Sugar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKfQQAhuCRE
Bert says "Primo Carnera kills Klitschko"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZfin8VIL4Y
Bert says "People will still want to see Jones-Hopkins II" and that "Jones-Hopkins II could rival Ali-Frazier III and Leonard-Hearns II"
Que Ridiculo!
The Klitchkos are boring and Hayes a big cowardy custard.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
how come youre full of red seanie?Quote:
Originally Posted by SEANIEThe Klitchkos are boring and Hayes a big cowardy custard.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
So are you saying that you think the Heavyweight division is still Boxings premier division?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
ok heres mine
theres nothing wrong with the HW division, in fact the two at the top are as good as (if not better than) any in history, there arent as many names running down the order but that is because the two at the top are so dominant and its harder to make a name in big fights when titles arent on the line
america is the centre of the world as far as boxing is concerned, and historically, they have always had the heavyweight champ.
The HW division will be considered rubbish by americans (where most of the "experts" ply their trade) until an american heavyweight at least looks like having a slight chance of winning a version of the title
all this talk about the HW division being crap is american propaganda
no, but im saying the reason that it isnt is more to do with the americans being rubbish than the whole division being rubbishQuote:
Originally Posted by J da BombaSo are you saying that you think the Heavyweight division is still Boxings premier division?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
ok heres mine
theres nothing wrong with the HW division, in fact the two at the top are as good as (if not better than) any in history, there arent as many names running down the order but that is because the two at the top are so dominant and its harder to make a name in big fights when titles arent on the line
america is the centre of the world as far as boxing is concerned, and historically, they have always had the heavyweight champ.
The HW division will be considered rubbish by americans (where most of the "experts" ply their trade) until an american heavyweight at least looks like having a slight chance of winning a version of the title
all this talk about the HW division being crap is american propaganda
mr sugar summed it up dude
Don't know. They must think I'm a Commie.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44how come youre full of red seanie?Quote:
Originally Posted by SEANIEThe Klitchkos are boring and Hayes a big cowardy custard.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
commies are cool nowadays man, it must be something elseQuote:
Originally Posted by SEANIEDon't know. They must think I'm a Commie.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44how come youre full of red seanie?Quote:
Originally Posted by SEANIEThe Klitchkos are boring and Hayes a big cowardy custard.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
I cant stand Bert Sugar!Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44no, but im saying the reason that it isnt is more to do with the americans being rubbish than the whole division being rubbishQuote:
Originally Posted by J da BombaSo are you saying that you think the Heavyweight division is still Boxings premier division?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by J da Bomba
ok heres mine
theres nothing wrong with the HW division, in fact the two at the top are as good as (if not better than) any in history, there arent as many names running down the order but that is because the two at the top are so dominant and its harder to make a name in big fights when titles arent on the line
america is the centre of the world as far as boxing is concerned, and historically, they have always had the heavyweight champ.
The HW division will be considered rubbish by americans (where most of the "experts" ply their trade) until an american heavyweight at least looks like having a slight chance of winning a version of the title
all this talk about the HW division being crap is american propaganda
mr sugar summed it up dude
I'm starting to feel that Boxing will suffer in the long run if HBO continue to not show any heavyweight fights. I know there are worse things happening in boxing but at this point it's very unrealistic for HBO to assume that boxing coverage can resume without people knowing who the Heavyweight champion of the world is!
I agree that the K-Bros are the best out there and would probably beat every previous heavyweight champ bar Lennox Lewis but thats just due to the simple fact that they are all (The K-Bros & Lewis) very comfortable in their 6ft 5ins+, 240lbs+ frames in which they hold considerable advantages in.
I'm rantin on again... I apologise :rolleyes: