WTF? Is this some sort of joke? Glen Johnson replacing Kessler in the super six?

@danrafaelespn - So you want to know who's LIKELY to replace Mikkel Kessler in Super Six & face Allan Green? Well you're in the right place. Glen Johnson

Please this event is turning into a farce, can Johnson even make 168? What a joke, the bigger joke is I would actually fancy him to do a number on Green ;D, Showtime should of just guaranteed Green two or three dates on the network leading to a big fight or something similar, and had the other two as semis.

I just read this myself, and i couldn't believe it. First off i thought they would just eliminate Green all together, then to find out that there would be a replacement and to hear it may be Glen Johnson. I just see him having trouble making weight. My suprise is not that i don't think he can fight, it's more of a weight issue, i think he KO's Green.

I am all for Johnson getting big fights, he deserves it. I am just concerned about him coming in weight drained, at his age that could be disaterous. Of course I will be rooting for Glen, Alan Green just annoys me with his excuses all the time. Wasnt he blabbing about having to go up in weight right after losing the Ward fight? I dont know how he has trouble with weight being a vegan and all. Personally I think thats why he doesnt have great energy in fights, he always seems sluggish late.

I would never have guessed that Johnson would be in the running. Likewise, you struggle to see him making SMW at his age and having been at the heavier weight for so long.

Bit odd if true.

This is a Super Middelweight tournament. Not Light Heavyweight. Johnson ain't made 168 in 10 muthafukkin years. I doubt he can make it. I doubt this fight happens

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

This is a Super Middelweight tournament. Not Light Heavyweight. Johnson ain't made 168 in 10 muthafukkin years. I doubt he can make it. I doubt this fight happens

---

Exactly. What a crock of shit.

Johnson, if he makes it, is going to drag his old ass into the ring so fucking weight-drained that he won't be able to hang with Allan fucking Green. He'll get KO'd within 6 rounds.

It would be a fucking ludicrous situation if Green somehow made it into the semi-finals instead of Froch or Dirrell because of this.

The ultimate irony for seen everything "Road warrior". He's being brought in for his name and visability....and I dont think it comes off unless they do a bullshitz catch weight. Frankly....he does deserve it more than Green who's 15 minutes off last 'effort' is running 14 too long for me.

This is just a money maker for the organisers. If they just skipped straight to the semis they would lose out on money that the next 2 fights would generate. It is just boxing politics winning over common sense again. And to think how excited by this tournament most of us were in the beginning???

As for Johnson, I think he probably could make weight if he does it gradually enough, he's not a huge LHW really, then again he's very old by boxing terms but I'd still bet on him battering Green even if he is weight drained!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

This is just a money maker for the organisers. If they just skipped straight to the semis they would lose out on money that the next 2 fights would generate. It is just boxing politics winning over common sense again. And to think how excited by this tournament most of us were in the beginning???

As for Johnson, I think he probably could make weight if he does it gradually enough, he's not a huge LHW really, then again he's very old by boxing terms but I'd still bet on him battering Green even if he is weight drained!

---

Actually I think Show Time would love to say "fuck you Green" and just go on to the next round. But they can't. The signed contracts they used against Ward and Dirrell would without a doubt be used against them. Green despite being a replacement, coming off a loss and just plainly being unworthy is technically still alive. The four guys most likely to move forward are Ward, Dirrell, Froch and Abraham, anyway, but Green does have a shot. If Ward beats Dirrell and Green scores a knockout win against someone, Green will move on and Dirrell will be out. It makes sense from Green's perspective to stay in and go for a knockout against a replacement opponent, because there's big money waiting in the semifinals and finals.

Oh shit and that's completely possible! I mean if he gets Bika, and he KO's Bika, he has more points then the guy who fought Froch, Abraham and Ward :o That's nuts. Crazy to think about.

Shame it has ended like this... wouldn't supprise me if Robin Reid ends up winning the whole thing :-X

A very good idea turning out damn wrong in the end, that is.

I would have figured that Edison Miranda, Saiko Bika, and maybe Peter Quillin should have been asked to join up

why isnt lucian bute involved ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

why isnt lucian bute involved ?

---

He's with HBO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chinchekked

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

why isnt lucian bute involved ?

---

He's with HBO

---

And he has a mandatory defense vs Jesse Brinkley :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chinchekked

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

why isnt lucian bute involved ?

---

He's with HBO

---

And he has a mandatory defense vs Jesse Brinkley :rolleyes:

---

thats shit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chinchekked

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

why isnt lucian bute involved ?

---

He's with HBO

---

And he has a mandatory defense vs Jesse Brinkley :rolleyes:

---

thats shit

---

Point one is that Green has had an uphill battle this whole tournament. I'm not defending Green here, but when he was scheduled to fight Kessler, no one said anything about the repurcussions of Green winning when a win by Green produced the same result as it does if he fights Johnson. Don't forget he started as a long shot because he came in with one loss already on his record and then he was immediately fed to Ward, the champion of the tournament. That would be tough for any supermiddleweight, let alone the underdog of the tournament. Imagine Froch in that position. How would he fare?

Point two is that Dirrell hasn't had a great tournament either and I don't think I'm alone in saying that I wouldn't be too unhappy if he didn't make it to the next round. Dirrell stunk out the joint worse than Green (versus Ward) when he fought Froch in Nottingham in a very winnable fight for him in my opinion. Froch at least generally has a fun style to watch whereas the same can't be said for Ward and Dirrell still made it horrible viewing. In his next fight, he took a debatable win over Abraham although I tend to believe he wasn't acting, that's besides the point. One loss due to negative fighting and one win on a DQ - he hasn't earned one victory himself. If he loses to Ward, why does he deserve to make it through when his only win was on a DQ? Moreover, he fought Abraham at home. Green won't fight one fight in his backyard wherever that is.

Now with Froch, I generally believe that he should make it to the next round, but if he's knocked out cold by Abraham, I understand how he could be eliminated. He should have won his match against Kessler. I believe Kessler is/was on the slide. And his win against Dirrell was more due to Dirrell's negative fighting than his winning. Bottom line, one loss against Kessler who is on the slide and one unimpressive win over Dirrell. That is why to me, Froch's fight versus Abraham is huge for his chances to advance. He beats Abraham and he has had a better run in the Super Six than Abraham himself, which merits advancement. However, if he were to lose, his resume doesn't look too solid because that's two losses and one unimpressive win. Not a very compelling CV if you ask me. A dominating performance by Green knocking out Bika or Johnson, which is what Green needs to advance, does more for me than Froch's win over Dirrell if Froch loses to Abraham.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chinchekked

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

why isnt lucian bute involved ?

---

He's with HBO

---

And he has a mandatory defense vs Jesse Brinkley :rolleyes:

---

thats shit

---

It was a smart move though. Satisfy the mandatory and wait for the Super Six losers, Kessler, Pavlik, or Hopkins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chinchekked

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

why isnt lucian bute involved ?

---

He's with HBO

---

And he has a mandatory defense vs Jesse Brinkley :rolleyes:

---

thats shit

---

Point one is that Green has had an uphill battle this whole tournament. I'm not defending Green here, but when he was scheduled to fight Kessler, no one said anything about the repurcussions of Green winning when a win by Green produced the same result as it does if he fights Johnson. Don't forget he started as a long shot because he came in with one loss already on his record and then he was immediately fed to Ward, the champion of the tournament. That would be tough for any supermiddleweight, let alone the underdog of the tournament. Imagine Froch in that position. How would he fare?

Point two is that Dirrell hasn't had a great tournament either and I don't think I'm alone in saying that I wouldn't be too unhappy if he didn't make it to the next round. Dirrell stunk out the joint worse than Green (versus Ward) when he fought Froch in Nottingham in a very winnable fight for him in my opinion. Froch at least generally has a fun style to watch whereas the same can't be said for Ward and Dirrell still made it horrible viewing. In his next fight, he took a debatable win over Abraham although I tend to believe he wasn't acting, that's besides the point. One loss due to negative fighting and one loss on a DQ - he doesn't have ONE real win. Why does he deserve to make it through? Moreover, he fought Abraham at home. Green won't fight one fight in his backyard wherever that is.

Now with Froch, I generally believe that he should make it to the next round, but if he's knocked out cold by Abraham, I mean I see the point in his elimination. He should have won this match against Kessler. I believe Kessler is/was on the slide. And his win against Dirrell was more due to Dirrell's negative fighting than his winning.

---

People seem to forget Green was a replacement. He did not have his own terms on contract. All he did was inherit the terms of Jermain Taylor's contract. And according to that contract this fight was set to be Taylor's home fight. It's pretty obvious there not gonna fight in Arkansas without Taylor. But I'm sure they'll work out some kind of arrangements that should be satisfactory to Green. He actually does have a little pull here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chinchekked

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

why isnt lucian bute involved ?

---

He's with HBO

---

And he has a mandatory defense vs Jesse Brinkley :rolleyes:

---

thats shit

---

Point one is that Green has had an uphill battle this whole tournament. I'm not defending Green here, but when he was scheduled to fight Kessler, no one said anything about the repurcussions of Green winning when a win by Green produced the same result as it does if he fights Johnson. Don't forget he started as a long shot because he came in with one loss already on his record and then he was immediately fed to Ward, the champion of the tournament. That would be tough for any supermiddleweight, let alone the underdog of the tournament. Imagine Froch in that position. How would he fare?

Point two is that Dirrell hasn't had a great tournament either and I don't think I'm alone in saying that I wouldn't be too unhappy if he didn't make it to the next round. Dirrell stunk out the joint worse than Green (versus Ward) when he fought Froch in Nottingham in a very winnable fight for him in my opinion. Froch at least generally has a fun style to watch whereas the same can't be said for Ward and Dirrell still made it horrible viewing. In his next fight, he took a debatable win over Abraham although I tend to believe he wasn't acting, that's besides the point. One loss due to negative fighting and one loss on a DQ - he doesn't have ONE real win. Why does he deserve to make it through? Moreover, he fought Abraham at home. Green won't fight one fight in his backyard wherever that is.

Now with Froch, I generally believe that he should make it to the next round, but if he's knocked out cold by Abraham, I mean I see the point in his elimination. He should have won this match against Kessler. I believe Kessler is/was on the slide. And his win against Dirrell was more due to Dirrell's negative fighting than his winning.

---

People seem to forget Green was a replacement. He did not have his own terms on contract. All he did was inherit the terms of Jermain Taylor's contract. And according to that contract this fight was set to be Taylor's home fight. It's pretty obvious there not gonna fight in Arkansas without Taylor. But I'm sure they'll work out some kind of arrangements that should be satisfactory to Green. He actually does have a little pull here.

---

I agree.

My point basically is that if Abraham and Ward win, they clearly are at the top of the class in this tournament and the rest of the entrants have borderline qualifications, Froch with unimpressive win over Dirrell at home, Dirrell with his DQ win over Abraham at home, and Green with a KO win over Bika or Johnson. At that point, it's a preference thing. To me, a knockout win over Bika or Johnson does more than Dirrell's DQ win over Abraham, and I think Green should advance.

If Ward and Abraham lose, Ward, Dirrell, Abraham, and Froch should advance even if Green wins because Green will get what he knows could have been the case if he lost just one match going into the tournament plus he will be making his departure on a win, which should propel him into a match with Bute. Everyone's happy.

If Ward wins and Abraham loses, I like Ward, Froch, Abraham and Green to advance because again to me, Green KO Johnson/Bika > Dirrell DQ Abraham.

The only sticky situation would arise if Ward loses and Abraham wins. I think at that point Ward, Dirrell, Abraham, and Froch should advance although it's a closer call.

I cannot see this happening, there are better super middle weights and Glenn could not do the weight and be competitive.

It's finally official.....i imagine allan looked down at his feet two or three times threw down his comic and did a happy dance. Not sure if he'll beat johnson but it'll be a whole lot easier than kessler and better than being thrown out of the tourny all together. Anyone taking johnson to win it all lol ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mar

It's finally official.....i imagine allan looked down at his feet two or three times threw down his comic and did a happy dance. Not sure if he'll beat johnson but it'll be a whole lot easier than kessler and better than being thrown out of the tourny all together. Anyone taking johnson to win it all lol ?

---

If he can make weight I'll take him...he's tough, has a hell of a chin and has some solid power. If he fights someone like Dirrell or Ward he'll likely get outboxed no matter what the weight, but Kessler, Froch, Abraham...when pressure meets pressure things don't always turn out well for the favorites.


I do wonder why no Hopkins-Johnson II....that would be a good even fight these days!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mar

It's finally official.....i imagine allan looked down at his feet two or three times threw down his comic and did a happy dance. Not sure if he'll beat johnson but it'll be a whole lot easier than kessler and better than being thrown out of the tourny all together. Anyone taking johnson to win it all lol ?

---

If he can make weight I'll take him...he's tough, has a hell of a chin and has some solid power. If he fights someone like Dirrell or Ward he'll likely get outboxed no matter what the weight, but Kessler, Froch, Abraham...when pressure meets pressure things don't always turn out well for the favorites.


I do wonder why no Hopkins-Johnson II....that would be a good even fight these days!

---

I completely agree. I don't like this matchup for Green.

Dirrell should be out bur Green should never have been allowed to knock on the front door. Bute should have been in from the beginning and when you put Johnson in and continue with a loser like Green, something smells bad.

Johnson should be able to handle Green but as bad a fighter as Green is, I hope Johnson doesn't drain himself to make weight. I know he can but it's too sudden, too soon. Johnson does not have to lose the weight the way that Jones did after Ruiz but as previously pointed out, he has been at the 175 mark for at least ten years and muscle memory is a bitch on your body.

In response to the title of this thread, the Super Six just got seriously "un-super" if thats even possible.... I say Johnson doesn't make weight, and i'd put a bet on that right now....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chinchekked

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

why isnt lucian bute involved ?

---

He's with HBO

---

And he has a mandatory defense vs Jesse Brinkley :rolleyes:

---

thats shit

---

Point one is that Green has had an uphill battle this whole tournament. I'm not defending Green here, but when he was scheduled to fight Kessler, no one said anything about the repurcussions of Green winning when a win by Green produced the same result as it does if he fights Johnson. Don't forget he started as a long shot because he came in with one loss already on his record and then he was immediately fed to Ward, the champion of the tournament. That would be tough for any supermiddleweight, let alone the underdog of the tournament. Imagine Froch in that position. How would he fare?

Point two is that Dirrell hasn't had a great tournament either and I don't think I'm alone in saying that I wouldn't be too unhappy if he didn't make it to the next round. Dirrell stunk out the joint worse than Green (versus Ward) when he fought Froch in Nottingham in a very winnable fight for him in my opinion. Froch at least generally has a fun style to watch whereas the same can't be said for Ward and Dirrell still made it horrible viewing. In his next fight, he took a debatable win over Abraham although I tend to believe he wasn't acting, that's besides the point. One loss due to negative fighting and one loss on a DQ - he doesn't have ONE real win. Why does he deserve to make it through? Moreover, he fought Abraham at home. Green won't fight one fight in his backyard wherever that is.

Now with Froch, I generally believe that he should make it to the next round, but if he's knocked out cold by Abraham, I mean I see the point in his elimination. He should have won this match against Kessler. I believe Kessler is/was on the slide. And his win against Dirrell was more due to Dirrell's negative fighting than his winning.

---

People seem to forget Green was a replacement. He did not have his own terms on contract. All he did was inherit the terms of Jermain Taylor's contract. And according to that contract this fight was set to be Taylor's home fight. It's pretty obvious there not gonna fight in Arkansas without Taylor. But I'm sure they'll work out some kind of arrangements that should be satisfactory to Green. He actually does have a little pull here.

---

I agree.

My point basically is that if Abraham and Ward win, they clearly are at the top of the class in this tournament and the rest of the entrants have borderline qualifications, Froch with unimpressive win over Dirrell at home, Dirrell with his DQ win over Abraham at home, and Green with a KO win over Bika or Johnson. At that point, it's a preference thing. To me, a knockout win over Bika or Johnson does more than Dirrell's DQ win over Abraham, and I think Green should advance.

If Ward and Abraham lose, Ward, Dirrell, Abraham, and Froch should advance even if Green wins because Green will get what he knows could have been the case if he lost just one match going into the tournament plus he will be making his departure on a win, which should propel him into a match with Bute. Everyone's happy.

If Ward wins and Abraham loses, I like Ward, Froch, Abraham and Green to advance because again to me, Green KO Johnson/Bika > Dirrell DQ Abraham.

The only sticky situation would arise if Ward loses and Abraham wins. I think at that point Ward, Dirrell, Abraham, and Froch should advance although it's a closer call.

---

SOLD!

I wasnt happy with it when I heard but youve convinced me with that post. A KO over Johnson is probably more impressive than a dodgy dq win over Abs and a stinker with Froch and its better than a loss to Kess aswel. so fair enough.

The problem I have is although im pleased for Glenn cuz the road warrior deserves a payday, im not sure really DESERVES to be in the super 6 cuz it isnt super anymore. Glenn is a washed up old man whos coming off a series of losses. He has 14 infact and he will be weight drained too so how is that super. I worry for his health if he meets Abs. He is underestimating how much weight making will take out of him at his age.

I would take Johnson to beat Abraham. Green couldn't do anything to keep Ward off his chest, that's how Glenn has been fighting for 100 years. No way he loses but I don't think he'll get the KO he needs either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amat

I would take Johnson to beat Abraham. Green couldn't do anything to keep Ward off his chest, that's how Glenn has been fighting for 100 years. No way he loses but I don't think he'll get the KO he needs either.

---

Do you mean Green? I think Johnson should avoid Abraham at all costs. His style is not meant for Abs. He would be walking on to thunderous punches from the 1st bell.

No I mean Abraham. He just faced a harder puncher then Abraham in his last fight, Abraham doesn't throw a whole lot and I think Johnson's activity would cause Abraham to become a little gunshy. Plus we've never seen Abraham fight without being able to move forward. Johnson has 1 gear but it's steady and would take rounds from AA, who gives away rounds far to often. I think he would take a close decision, or get the short end of a close decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GAME

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amat

I would take Johnson to beat Abraham. Green couldn't do anything to keep Ward off his chest, that's how Glenn has been fighting for 100 years. No way he loses but I don't think he'll get the KO he needs either.

---

Do you mean Green? I think Johnson should avoid Abraham at all costs. His style is not meant for Abs. He would be walking on to thunderous punches from the 1st bell.

---

I am with Amat here mate, if Johnson can hang and take bombs and arguably in some peoples case beat Cloud I can't see him worrying to much about AA arsenal of punches if Johnson can do the weight fine and if his level is still that it was against Cloud, I think Abrahams style could suit Johnson more active granite chin, I wouldn't b surprised if Johnson took a decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skel1983

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GAME

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amat

I would take Johnson to beat Abraham. Green couldn't do anything to keep Ward off his chest, that's how Glenn has been fighting for 100 years. No way he loses but I don't think he'll get the KO he needs either.

---

Do you mean Green? I think Johnson should avoid Abraham at all costs. His style is not meant for Abs. He would be walking on to thunderous punches from the 1st bell.

---

I am with Amat here mate, if Johnson can hang and take bombs and arguably in some peoples case beat Cloud I can't see him worrying to much about AA arsenal of punches if Johnson can do the weight fine and if his level is still that it was against Cloud, I think Abrahams style could suit Johnson more active granite chin, I wouldn't b surprised if Johnson took a decision.

---

How about Ward versus Johnson? Because assuming Johnson KO'd Green and Ward beat Dirrell, Johnson would be facing Ward in the semi's. And we'd get a rematch of Froch/Abraham.

Now that I think about it, is there anyone that could beat Ward in the tournament?

I just read on Dan Rafael's espn chat that Johnson inherits Kessler's round point total in the case of a tie in total points and thus, he advances with a win of any kind, not just a KO. That does not really seem fair to me that he should advance and not others with just a win. I'm not sure if did, but I take it back if I ever said that. Green, on the other hand, needs a KO to advance because of his low point total.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I just read on Dan Rafael's espn chat that Johnson inherits Kessler's round point total in the case of a tie in total points and thus, he advances with a win of any kind, not just a KO. That does not really seem fair to me that he should advance and not others with just a win. I'm not sure if did, but I take it back if I ever said that. Green, on the other hand, needs a KO to advance because of his low point total.

---

Ugh. This means I actually might be forced to cheer for Green, one of my most despised fighters, against Johnson, one of my most respected fighters. Fucking Showtime...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saddo

Shame it has ended like this... wouldn't supprise me if Robin Reid ends up winning the whole thing :-X

---

I actually did laugh out loud when I read that.

Well then Johnson is in the semis lol.

Why is this a bad thing? I mean did Abraham have a fight at 168 before being included in the tournament? Johnson being a top 5 guy from 175 means he can be a top 5 guy at 168 right? And Ward would outbox Johnson the same way Dawson did in their second fight. Johnson's attack is to basic for someone as crafty as him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skel1983

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GAME

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amat

I would take Johnson to beat Abraham. Green couldn't do anything to keep Ward off his chest, that's how Glenn has been fighting for 100 years. No way he loses but I don't think he'll get the KO he needs either.

---

Do you mean Green? I think Johnson should avoid Abraham at all costs. His style is not meant for Abs. He would be walking on to thunderous punches from the 1st bell.

---

I am with Amat here mate, if Johnson can hang and take bombs and arguably in some peoples case beat Cloud I can't see him worrying to much about AA arsenal of punches if Johnson can do the weight fine and if his level is still that it was against Cloud, I think Abrahams style could suit Johnson more active granite chin, I wouldn't b surprised if Johnson took a decision.

---

You guys seem to rate Johnson quite highly. Do you think he can win the whole thing?

I havent completely written Froch off yet but Ward is favourite. Green has no hope. Abraham has a punchers chance. I cant forget Johnsons loss to Woods years ago and everytime I see him box he is getting beaten by someone different so Id be surprised if he won. He'll make it past the group stage though because all he has to do is outpoint Green and even Miranda did that. Dirrel might be the most talented but next to Green he is the most fragile mentally. Doesnt like it whe things arent going his way and falls apart. I reckon Froch, Abraham, Ward and Johnson will be the final 4. Ward vs Abs in the final depending how it is seeded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amat

Well then Johnson is in the semis lol.

Why is this a bad thing? I mean did Abraham have a fight at 168 before being included in the tournament? Johnson being a top 5 guy from 175 means he can be a top 5 guy at 168 right? And Ward would outbox Johnson the same way Dawson did in their second fight. Johnson's attack is to basic for someone as crafty as him.

---

How is it a bad thing? It's an utter disgrace. Johnson inherits Kesslers points, so it's a given that Johnson would have beaten Froch? Ridiculous.

Johnson beats one guy, not even top ten rated, to advance to the semi's whilst Direll, Froch, Abraham and Ward have been beating the shit out of each other. Pathetic.