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Given the level of hate aimed at certain fighters, especially Manny, who garners zero respect from the armchair experts we are lucky to have here at Saddo's and on many other sites I was wondering which fighter is the one who we all truly respect?
Who is the fighter who is fighting the opponents we want him to, with no funny business, and who is the role model for phonies like Pac to follow?
Montiel and Cotto are candidates for that fighter you described.
nuthugging aside :D i really cant figure out how can they hate on what Pacquiao has done.
preceding every fight , believer where scarce and Manny's ass gonna be handed to him, After the spectacular showing the fallen hero is either shot, not that good , made for him and to some extent were paid to lose :(
Going up in weight usually is a handicap before Pac made it big. Now it looks the other way around if your name is Pacquiao.
carl froch - this guy comes to fight and will fight anybody, anytime. that's why i admire him so much. was impressed the way he absolutely dominated the tough arthur abraham. would like to see him fight andre ward and lucian bute in the future.
vic darchinyan - say what you will about vic but he's another one of those brave fighters who is willing to fight anybody. very awkward style but he brings it every time. after his loss to donaire, didn't sulk and came back to face tough opponents.
tomasz adamek - gotta love this guy. true warrior and stepped up to heavyweight and fighting heavies much bigger than he. i was glad he beat the crap out of chris arreola. however, might be too small for either klitschkos.
shane mosley - so what if he is past it and washed up! the guy's resume is second to none in terms of opponents fought. can't blame him for wanting a huge payday with pacquiao. have always admired his attitude and humbleness.
yonnhy perez - love this guy. love his style, heart and resolve. very likeable person as well. was torn between him and abner mares when they fought and glad neither of them lost against each other. very popular within the mexican community in california.
sergio martinez - this guy is such an incredible athlete, it's no wonder he's a top boxer. i think before he started boxing he was a professional soccer play and avid bicyclist. one of my favorites cause he wants the biggest and toughest fights.
timothy bradley - very underrated boxer who only wants to fight the bigger names. no doubt in my mind he's the top jr. welterweight. a bradley/khan fight would be an epic battle between two very fast and young fighters in their prime.
miguel angel cotto - look at his record and you will see he isn't afraid to fight anybody. a true boricua warrior who not only does boricuas proud but all latinos. very classy fighter with a great demeaner and humbleness. one of my favorite boricuas of all-time.
juan manuel lopez - even though he's young and hasn't been a champion for a long time, just look at his career opponents and it will confirm what a fearless warrior this cat is. love this guy (non-gayish) because of his classiness and level headedness.
juan manuel marquez - this guy seems to be getting better technically as he gets older. his defeat of katsidis was a thing of beauty. got dropped hard, was hurt, and will managed to impose his skills and will on a younger warrior like katsidis.
fernando montiel - i honestly didn't think he had much of a chance against the great hasegawa. was surprised to see he ended it so early. this is another underrated warrior who despite his diminitive size, regularly fights opponents much bigger than him. his war with donaire is going to be a treat for boxing fans worldwide.
Am I right in thinking that these guys could lose your repect if they started behaving with the same kind of antics that Pacquaio has?Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
If for example Sergio Martinez was to climb to the 168 lb super middleweight division and knock out Jean Pascal there you would lose respect for him, for dragging Pascal back down to his former weight class where clearly he couldn't perform?
Nonito Donaire ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Donaire has his own way of forcing catchweight fights. He allows his opponent to weigh whatever the maximum weight limit is for the division they fight in, he just stipulates that they must not be taller than the height restriction limit to get on a roller coaster in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius RainNonito Donaire ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
It's hard to put a list up with out someone (*ahem BILBO*) bashing it but I think Milmascars' list is pretty damn comprehensive.
Great list i agree with every single name.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
Do you think all these guys have a better resume than Manny too? If these started jumping up 3 or more weight classes and destroying the biggest names but at a catchweight 2 pounds below their rivals official weight, you don't credit their wins?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBGreat list i agree with every single name.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
So if Montiel moves up and knocks out Humberto Soto at a catchweight between superfeather and lightweight it would tarnish boxing and be a manipulative fight on Montiels part, or if Tomothy Bradley dominated Paul Williams at 158 lbs you would slate that win too?
I'd have to say Juan Manuel Marquez.
He is the most courageous fighter of our generation imo.
Evander Holyfield, hands down. No fighter of this era has a better resume than him in terms of opponents and Holyfield never ducked anyone or got accused of ducking. Not to mentioned the heart inside the ring. And this man still wants to fight any top HW including the Klit bros and Haye.
This man is also 1 of the most hated fighters ever because he shattered Tyson's myth.
Bil, what is your point mate ???
Why don't you just make a thread that defends Pacquiao's resume rather than make a thread for other people to make lists so that you can assume we would bash those in the event of some shit that hasn't even happened yet ???
Again, what exactly is your point?
My point was explained in the first post. Pac has an abundance of haters, people who refuse to give him credit for his victories. So I was asking what fighters they give more credit to than Pacquaio, i.e if you aren't satisfied with Manny's resume then who do you think is doing it better......Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grinch
bilbo,
you asked the question "who is the fighter who is fighting the opponents we want him to". you didn't say anything about resumes. whereas it's true that pacquiao has done incredible things in the past few years, he and his team continue to get ridiculed by fans all over the world for their choices of opponents.
evander holyfield is another fighter i forgot. great, great competitor!
Choices of opponents like margarito? Didn't you favor him to win against manny? And yet you still ridicule him, calling him a fraud/protected fighter. Doesn't make any sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
No i don't but i don't slate Manny Pacquiao i never have, im big fan of JMM but im not a Manny Pacquiao hater. And i think what he's done is incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboDo you think all these guys have a better resume than Manny too? If these started jumping up 3 or more weight classes and destroying the biggest names but at a catchweight 2 pounds below their rivals official weight, you don't credit their wins?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBGreat list i agree with every single name.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
So if Montiel moves up and knocks out Humberto Soto at a catchweight between superfeather and lightweight it would tarnish boxing and be a manipulative fight on Montiels part, or if Tomothy Bradley dominated Paul Williams at 158 lbs you would slate that win too?
I mean people were laughing at the thought of Manny Pacquiao vs ODLH, happening a few years ago. And now he's beating the best Welterweight's in the division with ease, people are slating him i don't get it.
Perhaps I didn't explain the original post well.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
Yeah basically what I am saying is, 'if Manny's resume has been disappointing since moving up from super featherweight a couple years ago in the eyes of critics on here, who do they think is fighting more significant fights and has acheived more than him in the past couple years?'
Also, following on from that, if the guys you think are achieving more were to then jump up three weight classes and dominate the cream of those higher weight classes, but at catchweights a couple pounds below the weight class, would you discredit those victories as not worth very much? So if Martinez dominated Jean Pascal at 173 lbs or Tim Bradley knocked out Paul Williams at 158lbs would these results not mean anything to you, or would you even go further, and cynically believe these fights were stacked in favour of the smaller guy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNo i don't but i don't slate Manny Pacquiao i never have, im big fan of JMM but im not a Manny Pacquiao hater. And i think what he's done is incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboDo you think all these guys have a better resume than Manny too? If these started jumping up 3 or more weight classes and destroying the biggest names but at a catchweight 2 pounds below their rivals official weight, you don't credit their wins?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBGreat list i agree with every single name.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
So if Montiel moves up and knocks out Humberto Soto at a catchweight between superfeather and lightweight it would tarnish boxing and be a manipulative fight on Montiels part, or if Tomothy Bradley dominated Paul Williams at 158 lbs you would slate that win too?
I mean people were laughing at the thought of Manny Pacquiao vs ODLH, happening a few years ago. And now he's beating the best Welterweight's in the division with ease, people are slating him i don't get it.
Ice definitely isn't the hater type. He may cheat at chess but his opinions on fighters are generally pretty rational. :p
I would of liked to have seen Manny Pacquiao, explore the Lightweight division a bit more. Because he basically skipped that division all together, when there was young hungry fighters.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboPerhaps I didn't explain the original post well.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
Yeah basically what I am saying is, 'if Manny's resume has been disappointing since moving up from super featherweight a couple years ago in the eyes of critics on here, who do they think is fighting more significant fights and has acheived more than him in the past couple years?'
Also, following on from that, if the guys you think are achieving more were to then jump up three weight classes and dominate the cream of those higher weight classes, but at catchweights a couple pounds below the weight class, would you discredit those victories as not worth very much? So if Martinez dominated Jean Pascal at 173 lbs or Tim Bradley knocked out Paul Williams at 158lbs would these results not mean anything to you, or would you even go further, and cynically believe these fights were stacked in favour of the smaller guy?
But again i can understand why he did, because of the big money fights vs Hatton, ODLH. But still you can't really fault the man, what he's done is incredible end of.
I like milmas's list. It's well done and thorough. I think you need to throw Jean Pascal on there. I know he allegedly ducked Miranda but he fought Carl Froch in England, a rugged Diaconu twice, and then bested Chad Dawson. And now he is fighting Bernard Hopkins.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan, but I am not quite sure about JuanMa Lopez being on there. We've wanted a Lopez/Gamboa fight for a while and it hasn't come to fruition. If Lopez is on there, shouldn't Gamboa be? Plus Lopen basically avoided fighting Celestino Caballero. I'm not going to call it a "duck," but it was close. And there is talk of Lopez fighting Litzau next? I'm glad Litzau is getting another pay day, but Lopez needs a more challenging fight.
I liked his list too. Certainly I respect all of those fighters and their acomplishments. Were they jump up three weights classes however and fight the best guys in thos classes at catchweights, I'd still think that improved their resume's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
If Carl Froch took on David Haye at 208 lbs and knocked him out, to me that would be the best acomplishment of his career by far. The fact that David had to weight in at 2 lbs less than his fight with Audley would not really matter to me much at all. Froch would be a legend in my eyes.
bilbo,
the big difference is that pacquiao isn't fighting any in their prime fighters at higher weights. imo, fighting and beating opponents at higher weight classes is vastly underrated, unless of course they're in their prime. do you not think marquez could have beaten de la hoya and ricky hatton too? cotto and clottey are different stories because they are much bigger than marquez and you've also got to consider marquez' age as well. while oscar is much bigger than marquez, if he came into a marquez fight in the same condition as he came in against pacquaio, marquez would have shut him out. but you cannot deny that at 37 yo., marquez has had a much better resume (with the exception of oscar's) than all of pacquiao's opponents at the higher weights. the reason why marquez/pacquiao needed to happen was because there was still a lot of questions to be answered after their two fights. most people thought marquez at least won the rematch.
the guys i mentioned, do fight opponents near their primes. sergio martinez has beaten pavlik and williams while those two were in their primes. and about pacquiao's resume, i never said it wasn't impressive. i'm just like any other fan who wants to see him challenged by a younger, in his prime opponent.
oh, and i forgot to put in jean pascal. i was originally going to put him in but i totally forgot. this guy is a beast and i'm beginning to recognize him for what a great fighter he can be. this guy has it all, toughness, chin, endurance and power. the only thing he needs is more wins against top opponents and he could be something very special in the not too distant future.
Their ages aren't important here. They were the guys at the top. Who aside from Floyd has Manny dodged that was higher rated from junior welter to light middle than Oscar, Hatton, Cotto, Clottey, Margarito etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
You say he keeps fighting old men, (and only one of them was old) but they were BEST opponents out there. What welterweight are you angry he didn't face?
He has faced Marquez, Hatton, De La Hoya, Cotto, Clottey and Margarito. That is pretty damn comprehensive. Aside from Berto there is nobody at welterweight who you could even conveivably argue is better than any of the guys he has already beat.
Go and have a look at the Ring rankings. Better yet, I'll copy and paste them here.
Champ: Vacant
1. Manny Pacquaio
2. Floyd Mayweather
3. Andre Berto
4. Miguel Cotto
5. Shane Mosley
6. Joshua Clottey
7. Jan Zevek
8. Vyacheslav Senchenko
9. Rafael Jackiewicz
10. Timothy Bradley
So of the 9 possible opponents Manny has already beaten Cotto and Clottey and he is likely facing Mosley next. He wants Floyd, but Floyd won't fight him it seems, and he would gladly fight Berto too. All the others are total unknowns apart from Bradley who only moved up in his last fight.
Your argument is ridiculous. Who should he have fought who he didnt?
I know it's controversial because the guy has mental issues, but Kermit Cintron fights anyone put in front of him. Certainly, he doesn't win those fights. But, you can't say he doesn't get in the ring. He's fought Paul Williams, Alfredo Angulo, Sergio Martinez, Antonio Margarito (2x) etc. Has he ever dodged anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
He's fought the opponents we want him to, but other than beating Angulo, there is always funny business when he's in the ring.
When you say 'most people' how many are you actually talking about? hundreds? thousands? hundred thousands? million perhaps? How many people's opinions were you able to obtain in that regards?Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
BTW, you gave out an excellent list. From that list, I'd go with Miguel Cotto.
Fighting tough opponents is only really commendable when you are the star. Cintron was the challenger in pretty much all of those fights and therefore glad of the shot and the payday.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI know it's controversial because the guy has mental issues, but Kermit Cintron fights anyone put in front of him. Certainly, he doesn't win those fights. But, you can't say he doesn't get in the ring. He's fought Paul Williams, Alfredo Angulo, Sergio Martinez, Antonio Margarito (2x) etc. Has he ever dodged anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Had he been an undefeated world champ with a big following then it would have been a brave decision to fight Angulo and Martinez etc.
But he was primarily playing the role of opponent with everything to gain and nothing to lose. It's not the same as a top p4p fighter choosing to fight those guys.
....all these guys should be given their proper credit. It's just as stupid to discredit floyd as it is to discredit pac for anything they've done in the ring. Fight person a,b, and c. And people will bitch that you avoided fighter d. Going on a quest to try and please fans is a silly one. Check fernando vargas and tommy hearn's bank acct's and see how much the fans really care about the punishment you take trying to please them. Didn't we just get done watching pac destroy tony ten minutes ago and people are already complaining about who he does and doesn't fight next.
What's truly baffling is that the same guy/s who complained about pac not facing tough opponents favored margo to win against manny in their fight. Poor margarito. Abandoned by his most loyal fan once he got beat up like a hamburger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar
Which leads me to believe that if a pac-jmm or pac-berto gets made, and if manny beats either of the two, the guy who favors jmm/berto would praise manny immediately after this purely hypothetical fight then the next week would again start complaining about manny being a fraud/protected fighter. Obviously this last paragraph is purely hypothetical. Just saying that judging from the events in the past, it could very well happen. :-\
most definitely kermit cintron belongs on the list of fighters who should be getting a lot of credit for having tough fights! i don't agree with the premise that you've got to be a top ten p4p fighter to be on this list. that's utter hogwash!
again, will someone explain to me why pacquiao deserves to be no. 5 on the all-time list? most of his fans think so and i just don't see how he can do this with all this cherry picking. no doubt he's an all time great but at #5? that's ridiculous! and i don't care how many division titles he's won! one of them was bullshit (david diaz) and two others were at catch weights. and besides, he hardly ever sticks around that division to defend his titles, which i think really separates the true great champions from the good champions.
again, with timothy bradley, alexander, amir khan, sergio martinez, andre ward, alfredo angulo, cotto at 154 with a catchweight, sergio mora, paul williams, yuri foreman, joan guzman, all available, why oh why did they handpick the ancient shane mosley? people, the guy is done, why should pacquiao even bother to fight him? why? because he's a safe fight, that's why!
look, after shane destroyed margarito, shane badly wanted to fight pacquiao even at 140. what did roach say? na, he's too good! (exact words). but only after he saw how washed up and vulnerable shane was against mayweather and the limited sergio mora, all of the sudden he's qualified as a viable opponent for pacquiao? double standards and contradictions, anyone?
Good Point. That's why he shouldn't be on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFighting tough opponents is only really commendable when you are the star. Cintron was the challenger in pretty much all of those fights and therefore glad of the shot and the payday.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI know it's controversial because the guy has mental issues, but Kermit Cintron fights anyone put in front of him. Certainly, he doesn't win those fights. But, you can't say he doesn't get in the ring. He's fought Paul Williams, Alfredo Angulo, Sergio Martinez, Antonio Margarito (2x) etc. Has he ever dodged anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Had he been an undefeated world champ with a big following then it would have been a brave decision to fight Angulo and Martinez etc.
But he was primarily playing the role of opponent with everything to gain and nothing to lose. It's not the same as a top p4p fighter choosing to fight those guys.
Still, credit to him, he's been up against some scary opposition.
The only fight you could argue was a brave risk though was Angulo. That was make or break for him. The others were all higher rated than him so he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratGood Point. That's why he shouldn't be on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFighting tough opponents is only really commendable when you are the star. Cintron was the challenger in pretty much all of those fights and therefore glad of the shot and the payday.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI know it's controversial because the guy has mental issues, but Kermit Cintron fights anyone put in front of him. Certainly, he doesn't win those fights. But, you can't say he doesn't get in the ring. He's fought Paul Williams, Alfredo Angulo, Sergio Martinez, Antonio Margarito (2x) etc. Has he ever dodged anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Had he been an undefeated world champ with a big following then it would have been a brave decision to fight Angulo and Martinez etc.
But he was primarily playing the role of opponent with everything to gain and nothing to lose. It's not the same as a top p4p fighter choosing to fight those guys.
Still, credit to him, he's been up against some scary opposition.
I'd fight Paul Williams for a few hundred k's as well and hurl myself out of the ring at the first opportunity.
Outside of PAC, Cotto fought Mosely earlier than Marg and May. Fought Marg when Marg had plaster and fought Clottey with a knockdown to boot.
JMM he's a 37 y.o. lightweight, at the top of the division. He never quits in the ring, fights through nasty cuts. He fights good competition and stays pretty active. He also is pretty respectful outside of the ring, not alot of trash talk coming from him.
For this year, I gotta give it to Robert Guerrero.
David Haye. When you beat Barret, Valuev, Ruiz, and Audley Harrison you deserve a mention.
There are a few factors that come to mind when people down play Pacs wins and some are valid. Cotto, and Margarito both came off career ending fights and were never the same. Hatton kinda got broken by Floyde and Oscar was at the end of his rope and was weight drain to shit. But pac resume still impressive and as for the fighters i think Holyfeild is way ahead of anybody.
LOL i didnt understand the 1st post.
The Hobbit's analogy is spot on.
for Juan Manuel Lopez to match Pac's 2nd Half accomplishment he needs to jump to Lightweight and Dominate guys like Humberto Sotto, Urbano Antillon and Michael Katsidis.
Sergio Martinez Manhandling Bernard Hopkins, Chad Dawson and Jean Pascal
Paul Williams beating up Lucian Bute, Carl Froch and Andre Ward