when i go to a boxing gym i see people with weights while they shadow box and i was wondering why they do it is it to improve speed or power or something else if it is something else what is it for
Printable View
when i go to a boxing gym i see people with weights while they shadow box and i was wondering why they do it is it to improve speed or power or something else if it is something else what is it for
Speed, i do this everyday for about 3 rounds
I also do it everyday, but I hear a lot of mixed things about doing it. some people say it actually slows down your speed, and the extra weight makes your mind wanna drop your hands. I dont know if I agree with that. does everyone else use dumbells to shadow box?
i've done it, i hate it(so that may mean it works), theory is that it makes you like(or feel like) greased lightning after you let the weights down and just use hands. i think Scrap had a post about its the snap back not the push out that makes you quick, so if you agree to that this may be of mediocre help. i think this was started by the Russians, but i could be wrong
Its a load of crap if you ask me, emulating having 2.5-5kg hands, how is that boxing specific? over using all sorts of muscles that really arent required to throw a good shot? resistance is good but the majority of the resistance is in the wrong direction due to gravity in this case, theres much better ways to add resistance to the trigger muscles of a shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
Thats just how i see it, i do see lots doing weighted shadow boxing so maybe they get somthing from it that im not aware of, all i see is a bad feel and drilling poor technique i find it hard to see the benefits of it outweighing the cons.
the thing im thinking of it strengthins the muscles needed in the certain punch
actually i also have seen lots of folks "hurt" their elbows because they use 5 lbs and snap it like a punch...ow.
Throughout a punch there are different Feels, the explosion as we call it comes at the last 4" ofthe punch,. or direction if you like.With Rubber or Elastic, the feel is better than Iron as iron is constant, elastic is not. Plus it elastic, brings the fist back qiucker a good habit to have.
I use 3lbs weights and i dont have any pain or problems with this. its like putting a weight on your bat before you go to hit the ball(baseball) everyone does that. It makes your hands feel lighter and easier to throw
I see what your saying and i see what people are trying to emulate while doing this however i just think its not the best of ways to do things in boxing, listen to scrap and you will be doing yourself a favour. elastic isnt going to cause the same overly tense guard as weights because the resistance isnt there until its activated by your movements either by a punch or defencive manouver or a simple guard/muffs on.Quote:
Originally Posted by the killer
also with the weights as you build momentum throughout the shot it no longer requires much intense contraction throughout the movement as momentum of the weight builds, whereas elastic will add resistance as the punch develops which is one of the oldest strength building principles right there so that must be a nice added benefit.
Not to mention its going to have you boxing from a slightly different stance than usual as youve drastically changed your centre of gravity by having big weights in your hands so your probably going to be well off balance, it seems to me your guaranteed to end up leaning/reaching on the front foot unless you have overly good posture. in time both these bad habits caused through the training and the effect of the training method itself will start costing you speed rather than developing it. doesnt sound like good speed training to me, doesnt sound like good anything training really.
One thing works everything, Conciuosness, ask Andre ;D.
Now things are getting interesting, id like to hear what andre has to say on this regarding all messages being sent and recieved to the brain, obveously if things arent right there (in the head) at the time needed then there is going to be a big problem no matter how much ability you have or how much has been done in preperation.
alright now im interested...
Aww fruit ..its New years day I have a ache where my consciousness is meant to be :p.
I feel like I got weights strapped to both hands and both feet
that should answer it for you.;D
I would NOT do it often put it that way.
Balance and awarness would eventually shift and start to align with the habit of adjusting to the weights I think.
It's good in moderation..couple times a week if that, don't snap hard on ur punches it's more of going through the motions like lifting other weights, do high rep sets,it helps build up the muscles that fatigue when you go 10 rounds and your arms feel like logs, it's a good exercise for stamina in your arms but you must place focus on proper form and returning hands to guard ALWAYS..this is where it is beneficial, as in a 8th round when your gloves feel like 100 pounds and you can't keep that guard up, thats the main point of this exercise while speed and strength can be helped to an extent, it is not it's main purpose, there are other more effective ways to train those areas with different exercises
And heavy weights should not be used, 3-5 pounds at the most, for this but any more and could cause joint damage if not properly supervised, besides your gloves (depending on weight class) may be 14oz. no where near needing condition for a 5lb. glove
And resistance bands are much better for the joints than free weights and cause less potential for injury
Instead of concentrating on the punch and speeding it up.
You already know how to punch,so
concentrate on the return to position as fast as you can.
Then go the next step; deliver it, return it, but you have the second punch out there already done and dusted in your minds eye before the first one has even been launched.
You do this in your mind and your body will eventually follow the prompts you are giving it.
you can do this just in your mind alone if you feel a block to this, then start right at the start inside your head.
Then know where the opponents reaction will take their closest arm naturally to your own first delivery or feign and have the second punch delivered into the space they leave.
Move bodily so that you help the path into that space.
Build up speed combos combined with moves that really count,really make them pay for their reactions, know your opponents natural reactions to a set and work in between the gaps and in between his timing.
double slit - crystalmage1234 - blip.tv
Did you see this yet Scrap?
Im into all the stuff you put up thanks, I'll be checking right into them. ;D
Love it ;D. they say coaching isnt Rocket Science, done properly it is ;D.
So is what hes saying meaning that by some kind of meditation theyve found a way to sort of open peoples awareness levels further than is usually used in some cases of mental lock, also i got the idea they were saying that we shouldnt educate further and further in specific set areas as much otherwise we risk losing out on overall potential of the brain? and trying to expand knowledge in other areas is what the brain is designed for and you will get the best performance from it by educating in this way? i could have gotten all ofthis wrong but ill be watching it a few times lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Im going to watch the videos a few more times before i come down on tuesday scrap and we will disscuss it further, very interesting stuff. and somthing to apply to boxing.
Andre when you say in the 1-2 sort of example ''in your minds eye youve already completed the punch'' do you mean you are just throwing the first punch while your actually thinking about and concentrating on the following punch and just letting the first punch develop and finish without giving it much thought or concentration? sort of preloading the shot in your mind until its time to throw that shot?
I understand what your saying about the single shot example i think, pulling the shot back i think if you mean the same thing,just not really thinking about extending the shot instead sort of pre mentally loading the return of the shot? am i right with any of this or have i got it all wrong? lol
He is talking isolation and why its wrong in fundamental movement and thought, see you tuesday
He is talking isolation and why its wrong in fundamental movement and thought, see you tuesday. incorperate that into Dumbell routines as part of the whole, what have you got.
Im saying once you know .you know. stop thinking about it.
Stop building muscles into the pathway of knowing.
Better off with elastic,following Scraps ideas is going to poop on weights on arms.
I was sort of suggesting that if you cant flow freely in the zone without pre-thoughts slowing you down;
Then- re practice by breaking it down into sections like I suggested. But notice as you build up you are dropping the last thought process because;well dam it, you Know it already, get over it. ;D That creates speed and creates free flow.
If theres a habit of physically thinking that slows you, then go right back and do nothing at all physically . just do the whole combination in your mind while you are sitting there relaxing and do it over and over until you are no longer thinking you are just flowing,
then stand up and do it see how fast you are then.
This isnt the be all and end all, its just one way of ticking something off.
Heres an interesting exersize. have your sparrring partner load up to hit you,nose to nose you are both in a square shouldered stance both hands can reach the target for both men . Adjust your stances as you would if fighting in a phone box.Should be like a half side stance.
Now let him launch shots freely with one arm and you try and stop him before he lands the shot. Thats tough you are nose to nose here. This is great for his disguised launching practice on you.:D you are trying to disrupt the path of his arm.
:mad: Not so good for you. He should be like a gun slinger drawing a gun and nearly smacking you at will.
Now rest your attacking glove or wrist on his rear fore arm and let him do that again with his other attacking arm, you stop his shot with your free hand when you feel it coming.
Side note: (Funny thing is you even mess up his shot and take the power out by disrupting his rear arm specially if you push lightly towards his center.)
Want to go one step more ?
Close your eyes!
Surprise you can still stop him.
This should really allow you to practice and devise some smart and unusual nose to nose stuff once you combine slight ankle turns and shoulder rolls,half switching stance to get from one side of his arm to the outside of his arm or back in etc and a slip and release of the rear guard style of short punch to it all, to force his reactions.
This is very free flowing no time to think its all on balance and reaction and you can feel it if the feeler is out.
you have to do this with your sparring partner, you can't be trying to knock each others heads off either, this a two way street an exercise that could with patience take you beyond pre thought.
;D Ahh fuk.
How far down the rabbit hole do you really want to go?
Ithink i get the idea scrap, and if it is what i think it will make for an interesting chat.
Ilike the idea of those andre, im not a confident inside fighter so i tend to find myself using elbows to dissrupt shots and turn then into punches or just generally keep them off balance, i find this way of infighting helps me land hard shots if forced inside much easier than lean and bash type stuff and after i can get straight back on the outside where im comfy.
This is all sounding pretty normal at the moment andre, im a big believer in feel when it comes to fighting and always have been so it doesnt sound strange to me at all, i guess ive always 'felt' that feel is the more accurate or sensative of the senses in some situations lets go further down the rabbit hole ;D
Well you can eventually use this feeling you get throgh the oppositions movment and balance and reactions to be able to slip around him so that you can be outside.
Or the reverse you can feel the openings arise and slip a blow straight up them as they do.
Elbows are great in there to be able to fold down from your glove (little finger side of wrist is the best feeler) on his forearm arm, to an elbow so that you keep control, automatically allows you to shift. in and land the other arm harder while smothering and still feeling his intention. Its all part of the dance. Brief clinch and push or grab and swing do what ever is the reverse of his reactions to you,(If you push he will come forwards) If you pull him he will push out or backwards) That when you help him along. Theres not too many rules a ref is going to land on you when both of your balance points are that close, hes thinking about separating you anyway, any movment saving him work and if you are punching or re-setting a position immediately he will be fine with a slight bit of control occuring.
Best if you are going to start reaction working with a partner. Start both in front stance and sword fight using only one arm, forget gloves. Right arm verses right arm or left verses left arm and get the feeling first.
You learn alot, interruption of movement, displacement of balance,feeling the gaps for when to explode up openings that arise. Shifting of your centre line to deflect in coming blows, Dragging in a prey with a slight turn. folding elbows then launching a shot from there while choking out their shot, minimizing footwork, and you gain contact reflexes in your forearms. Its fun to disrupt their front foot with your foot too, slight drag or tap as they move etc,toe tread, even sneak your foot down under theirs as it lands so their balance is ruined for a sec, but be hitting them as they adjust dont waste it, :-).
Thanks andre thats a good one, i think well try this one if we can do it properly. is there any safety reason why you said for right hand vs right only? once you get the hang of that can you do right vs left ?
When you say sword fight, do you mean to sort of use your forearm on your opponents applying pressure with a push and pull here and there to manipulate their balance distort their shots and create openings? maybe a good idea to throw in some tagging, like tap them with your fingers on the back of the neck or traps as a point to keep it tidy and stop it from turning into a wrestling match, what do you think? maybe be careful for accidental eye gouges? lol
As an aside to the strain on joints, in my 2nd year of training (still fairly clueless) I was doing punch outs drills with 5 lb weights, trying to build strength and speed. What I mostly gained, was a hurt lower back from the strain that took the better part of another 2 years to recover from. Even today I still find myself more susceptible to lower back injuries.
There aren't too many short cuts to speed and power. I've learned it is a process of developing the body, and all of it, not just a few specified areas with a few specified drills. Trying to work something like this drill, without a properly built up core, strong legs and upper body ready for the stress it may apply, is nothing short of a recipe for disaster.
Train the parts of the body where you are Ticklish. the senative areas. They are sensative for a reason.
Nooops. Punching with weights just adds gravity, or a downward resistance. Why the heck does anyone want to train with downward resistance while punching. It'll help only if you're required to let your 5-year old son hang on your arms during fights. Seriously, it'll probably help if you're training for uppercuts. Remember, a punch, particularly straights and jabs, is forward movement, a thrust. So you want a resistance against that movement. It's better to use one of those pulley-type exercise equipment in the gym, you know the ones with handles with retracting cords attached to them, whatever you call 'em.
Better yet, you should do some isometric excercises, a form of resistance exercise using artificial resistance instead of weights, adapting them for shadow-boxing. But it'll be much better if you perform the ones that develop the whole body, not just punching arms. But that's a whole new topic so do the research yourselves, I'm sure there are plenty of info about it on the net.
Shadow-boxing karate style combined with brisk-walking has been my daily excercise routine for several years. I sit hours for meditation everyday so I need to exercise to keep my circulation going, so I developed my own exercise. Unlike the usual boxing way, my style uses isometric form so it's both a resistance and an aerobic form of exercise rolled into one, which is an ideal form of exercise. And particularly good point about this form is that I can control the intensity of my workout by simple adjusting the intensity on isometric contraction of the muscles I use. Usually I work out at a medium intensity; light intensity when I'm tired or little sick, and high intensity when I feel like it or when I overfed myself. So before I eat an extra piece of rich creamy cake, I ask myself 'am I willing to work for it?' I usually end up just sipping a tea instead.
There's an excellent karate kata, or form exercise, called Sanchin which is a form isometric exercise combined with yoga-type breathing that develop the whole body, as well as punching power. I saw a karate master, a Sanchin master as well, in Okinawa who was in his 50's and yet had a fully ripped, well-chiselled body. I've developed a simplified version of it for non-karate athletes but it's almost impossible for me to teach it online, more so since I'm from a pre-tech generation and I need to at least be able to make some diagram-illustrations for computers to show that, especially the foot movements, and there's no 'kickings' in this exercise so it can be easily adapted for non-karate athletes. Maybe I'll talk about it more when I have time...
Yeah we used to do it with a relaxed semi gripped hand so fingers didnt come into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneFlint
You got the idea, its a feeling thing you are building up contact reflexes, its just an exercise to link feeling and balance into your brain via reaction is what it does.
You'll be able to read their intentions,once it gets to that stage you can bluff intentions then it becomes like a chess match.
Square shouldered nose to nose with contact to two arms is a touch advanced and could get messy if you hadnt gone the sword fight single arm routine at first.
Its a Wing Chun training regime.Minimal movement is required to get a space a shoot up if you knock an arm out of the way a good practitioner would be around that and smacking you up the outside of that move,its to be started slow and subtle and built up to free style. Eventually some dudes do it blindfolded.
It would eventually give any fighter a great feel for when they can slip past their opponents arms in close.
Good stuff andre, thats what i love about boxing, because of the rules and lack of weapons it makes it like a game of chess, good idea about the fingers not getting too involved, keep it sport specific as possible, i like the idea of leg fencing and disrupting footwork, done tidily and developed properly in a subtle manner these could be what im looking for in terms of defence on the inside it could add another layer, and give me a bit more confidence, spot on ;D. Im definently going to be doing this one more aswell as a few other things a bit similair, maybe building up and adding a bit of leg fencing or footwork disruption, work things out a bit see what can be done, its interesting because its not somthing ive looked at much before or thought about but it opens up a whole new realm or level in which you can work your opponent, theres a lot to be thought about in boxing and as an outside fighter i tend to usually think more on the terms of outside work, learning all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYeah we used to do it with a relaxed semi gripped hand so fingers didnt come into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneFlint
You got the idea, its a feeling thing you are building up contact reflexes, its just an exercise to link feeling and balance into your brain via reaction is what it does.
You'll be able to read their intentions,once it gets to that stage you can bluff intentions then it becomes like a chess match.
Square shouldered nose to nose with contact to two arms is a touch advanced and could get messy if you hadnt gone the sword fight single arm routine at first.
Its a Wing Chun training regime.Minimal movement is required to get a space a shoot up if you knock an arm out of the way a good practitioner would be around that and smacking you up the outside of that move,its to be started slow and subtle and built up to free style. Eventually some dudes do it blindfolded.
It would eventually give any fighter a great feel for when they can slip past their opponents arms in close.
i was really surprised when i tried the elbows and found that it worked just as effective as grabbing the head, in muay thai clinching is done similair controlling the head to create openings and walk them into your knees by dissrupting and manipulating their balance. if you control an elbow its suprising how easy it is to move somebody and spin them and it doesnt even look like your doing anything to the untrained eye, is any of it allowed in amature or would you get called for it if it was too obviouse?
Yeah you would get called for it. Grabs are out, but if you control with one glove while attacking with the other on the way in, then they wont be looking at you suppressing their lead arm if your punch lands with your other hand at exactly the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneFlintGood stuff andre, thats what i love about boxing, because of the rules and lack of weapons it makes it like a game of chess, good idea about the fingers not getting too involved, keep it sport specific as possible, i like the idea of leg fencing and disrupting footwork, done tidily and developed properly in a subtle manner these could be what im looking for in terms of defence on the inside it could add another layer, and give me a bit more confidence, spot on ;D. Im definently going to be doing this one more aswell as a few other things a bit similair, maybe building up and adding a bit of leg fencing or footwork disruption, work things out a bit see what can be done, its interesting because its not somthing ive looked at much before or thought about but it opens up a whole new realm or level in which you can work your opponent, theres a lot to be thought about in boxing and as an outside fighter i tend to usually think more on the terms of outside work, learning all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYeah we used to do it with a relaxed semi gripped hand so fingers didnt come into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneFlint
You got the idea, its a feeling thing you are building up contact reflexes, its just an exercise to link feeling and balance into your brain via reaction is what it does.
You'll be able to read their intentions,once it gets to that stage you can bluff intentions then it becomes like a chess match.
Square shouldered nose to nose with contact to two arms is a touch advanced and could get messy if you hadnt gone the sword fight single arm routine at first.
Its a Wing Chun training regime.Minimal movement is required to get a space a shoot up if you knock an arm out of the way a good practitioner would be around that and smacking you up the outside of that move,its to be started slow and subtle and built up to free style. Eventually some dudes do it blindfolded.
It would eventually give any fighter a great feel for when they can slip past their opponents arms in close.
i was really surprised when i tried the elbows and found that it worked just as effective as grabbing the head, in muay thai clinching is done similair controlling the head to create openings and walk them into your knees by dissrupting and manipulating their balance. if you control an elbow its suprising how easy it is to move somebody and spin them and it doesnt even look like your doing anything to the untrained eye, is any of it allowed in amature or would you get called for it if it was too obviouse?
There is a lot of crap on the net regarding this but these two are practicing chi sao in an advanced way.
Although remember this is a dance of such and an exercise in gaining feelings in contact reflexes. It is a base to sparring and free sparring usually occurs on the end of this type of thing when two practice together and contact is broken.
The arm movements they start with for the first few seconds of each set are predetermined, but the outcomes are not.
You can tell the guy in blue is more advanced, at 124 or so he closes his eyes and turns away and shows what can be achieved.
Watching two of equal freedom go at it blindfolded is interesting to watch but I cant find any online yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc
Actually these two are not too bad at all.
Two hands no eyes is a lot harder than they make it look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqZuR88t2k&NR=1