Overachievers in boxing

We've had a few underachievers thread so how about an overachiever one?

1. James J. Braddock-AKA the Cinderella man managed to win the HW title from Max Baer as a big underdog during the depression.

2. Rocky Marciano-Not only having really limited skill set but also was really short and undersized even in his era. Managed to be HW champ and undefeated.

3. David Reid-Having one messed up eye ever since he turned pro, still managed to win a alphabet title and make boat loads of money especially in his cash out fight with Trinidad.

4. Ricky Hatton-Really average skillset managed to beat Kostya Tszyu, land in the top 10 p4p list and make boat loads of money from his countrymen, estimated at 50 million pounds.;D

5. John Ruiz-Really bad skill set managed to make boats load of money and got to call himself HW "champ."

6. Wlad Klitschko-A really crappy china chin, managed to rule the division for years. This would have been unthinkable that a lineal HW champ can rule this long with such a bad chin. Probably the 1st time in HW history and making a lot of money.

7. Carlos Baldomir-Being a lineal Champ at 1 division and getting a million dollar pay day against Floyd despite being really limited in skills.

Anyone care to add?

Audley Harrison from a come from behind one Punch KO to getting a title shot from his limited past it Olympic gold medal.

Alfonso Gomez comes to mind. He beat Gatti, got a fight with Cotto, made some good paydays.

Certainly George Foreman in his comeback was quite an overachiever, winning the Heavyweight Title at age 45.

Roberto Duran achieved a tremendous amount late into his career.

Glen Johnson must be added to the list with 12 losses and he's 42 years old and the dark horse in the Super Middle tournament.

Nikolai Valuev (and his previous incarnation as Primo Carnera)

Timothy Bradley was the first name that sprung to mind. He's not a great boxer, he has little power, and his defense is average. Yet he's managed to beat everyone they put in front of him, including some very good fighters, and it arguable the best fighter in a deep division and a fixture on the P4P list.

Like Froch, he's the type of guy who's psychological make-up and determination makes up for any deficiency in skill they have.

Gavin Rees to even win a world title was unbelievably good fortune.

Micky Ward-two careers, Jeff Harding, Keith Mullings, Cruz Carbajal, Steve Littles, Baldo ?

Steve Collins achieved a helluva lot in comparison to his natural boxing talent

Depends how high they need to go to be classed as actually achieving something, but Irish taxi driver Martin Rogan didn't do bad seeing as he was still driving it while fighting.

KO'd an Olympic Gold and World Title contender.

Also have to add Evander Holyfield from 96-98 when everyone thought he was done after gassing out in the late rounds and being stopped by Bowe in their last fight. Went on to beat Tyson twice, beat moorer, etc.

Great idea for a thread! However I agree with very little of who you've listed: Wlad, Rocky, Holyfield, etc. Say what you will about Wlad he's technically superior to everyone he's set foot in the ring with, Rocky was skilled with his style or else he would have lost to Walcott or Charles if he was poor in skill, Holyfield was ALWAYS skilled technically.

When I think "Over achiever" in boxing I think of someone who lacks skills like speed, power, defense, technique, etc. Someone who wins fights they should have no reason winning.

My examples: James 'Buster' Douglas, Oliver McCall, Randy 'Tex' Cobb, Michael Bentt, Brian Vera, Mickey Ward, Danny Williams, Arturo Gatti, Carlos Baldomir...none of them were great with technical ability or anything but they had major wins and not due to them having any positive boxing abilities, just pure tenacity and will got them their wins vs certain competition.

The main over achiever in boxing history that has been overlooked is Joe Frazier. No defense at all, he was a 1 punch, 1 armed fighter, and he was a GREAT, GREAT fighter....Joe was no boxer he was a FIGHTER.

If you did an "underachievers" thread it would be 90 pages long!

Good call on McCall. Granite head and a good righthand goes along way.

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Originally Posted by Hulk

Alfonso Gomez comes to mind. He beat Gatti, got a fight with Cotto, made some good paydays.

Certainly George Foreman in his comeback was quite an overachiever, winning the Heavyweight Title at age 45.

Roberto Duran achieved a tremendous amount late into his career.

Glen Johnson must be added to the list with 12 losses and he's 42 years old and the dark horse in the Super Middle tournament.

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To me, "overachiever" is a guy who goes far in his career despite having limited talents. IMO, Duran does NOT even come close to fitting that category. Glen Johnson, however, is the poster boy of overachievers.

What about a Iran Barkley?

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

What about a Iran Barkley?

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He's a good example too. Also, I think John John Molina was an overachiever. He gave De La Hoya a good fight despite not being anywhere near him in talent.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

What about a Iran Barkley?

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He's a good example too. Also, I think John John Molina was an overachiever. He gave De La Hoya a good fight despite not being anywhere near him in talent.

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Molina was a capable boxer, tight little counter puncher prior. Was off long run...and coming up.

Sticking with homeland I'd put Jake 'The snake' Rodriquez on list. Couldn't break eggs but hustled way to title and good story.

Some weird picks in this thread. Olympic gold medal winners that went on to be world champion? Undisputed champs? All-time greats?

This small crop of fighters that reach the pinnacle can seriously be classed as overachievers? Isn't just that they were brilliant fighters?

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Also have to add Evander Holyfield from 96-98 when everyone thought he was done after gassing out in the late rounds and being stopped by Bowe in their last fight. Went on to beat Tyson twice, beat moorer, etc.

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I absolutely agree with this.

I also think Muhammad Ali was one of the biggest overachievers in sports history. Now that's not a criticism at all but more of an indication of his ability to rise up to the occasion when he supposedly had no chance.

Oh and Rocky Balboa.

Back a few yrs 70s early 80s , South African heavy Kallie Knoetze, limited skill but tremendous power in right hand used to turn fights around with one shot.

I used to think (many still do) that Carl Froch had overachieved, getting by on will power alone.

However after actuallly boxing in his last fight, I've believed he actually does have skills

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Also have to add Evander Holyfield from 96-98 when everyone thought he was done after gassing out in the late rounds and being stopped by Bowe in their last fight. Went on to beat Tyson twice, beat moorer, etc.

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I absolutely agree with this.

I also think Muhammad Ali was one of the biggest overachievers in sports history. Now that's not a criticism at all but more of an indication of his ability to rise up to the occasion when he supposedly had no chance.

Oh and Rocky Balboa.

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Exactly. Holyfield while was skilled was considered to be a shot fighter after the 3rd Bowe fight. I'll call bullshit on anyone that believed Holyfield would beat Tyson and go on to have a few more good years when almost everyone said he was a washed up fighter at the end of 1995. If that isn't overachieving at that particular point of his career than what is?

Now Muhammad ALi is another great definition of overachiever. He was considered to be past his prime when about to fight Foreman, considered to be wash up after losing to Norton the 1st time, but he went and achieved alot, regaining the HW title the 2nd and 3rd time along with many famous wins.

A lot of people in this thread seems to think that overachiever only means someone like Gatti or Baldomir that isn't highly skilled but went on to achieve things in the sport. No, overachieving means accomplishing goals when no one thought it was possible anymore. Holyfield and Ali while highly skilled at their peak wasn't expected to achieved what they did later in their careers because they were considered washed up. Now that is overachieving.

Having Wlad, Rocky Marciano, and Ricky Hatton on the thread doesn't make sense to me or maybe I don't really understand the thread.

I'm a bit confused by this thread too.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

If a brilliant fighter pulls off an upset it is surely because of their already established brilliance, they haven't overachieved because they've already achieved enough to make them great?

:-\

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I'm a bit confused by this thread too.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

If a brilliant fighter pulls off an upset it is surely because of their already established brilliance, they haven't overachieved because they've already achieved enough to make them great?

:-\

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I guess we just have different definitions on the word "overachiever." Just like we both disagree on the word "elite" or "coward." ;)

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I'm a bit confused by this thread too.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

If a brilliant fighter pulls off an upset it is surely because of their already established brilliance, they haven't overachieved because they've already achieved enough to make them great?

:-\

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I guess we just have different definitions on the word "overachiever." Just like we both disagree on the word "elite" or "coward." ;)

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I'm 100% certain that i've never used the word "coward" in more than 11,000 posts, unless merely repeating like now.

If, like me, you believe this word has no place in boxing then YES we fully agree, I don't actually know your definition or how it relates to fighters ;)

I wouldn't like to say that 'this is what it means to over achieve' because you can apply a different logic in a number of ways to come to a conclusion (obviously).
Another way of thinking is using Jermaine Taylor as an example of someone who reached for the stars, twice beating Bernard Hopkins to became undisputed world champion to then crash and fall at an alarming rate. By that logic you could possibly state Mike Tyson as a massive overachiever... Because lets face it, no one with that ridiculous side to side movement should be expected to accomplish anything in boxing right? ;D

Vaughn Bean - who is he and how did he get a shot at Holyfield?

Steve Robinson , a club fighter who won the warren boxing title , earned good money from being a hard working fighter , so far from world class its scary.

(time to stir the pot)

Floyd is an overachiever - if he had fought casa, koysta, hatton @140, margarito, cotto, williams, pacquiao a few years back those fights would take a lot of him and one would whooped on him by now, and none would be talking about him now ;D

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Hulk

Alfonso Gomez comes to mind. He beat Gatti, got a fight with Cotto, made some good paydays.

Certainly George Foreman in his comeback was quite an overachiever, winning the Heavyweight Title at age 45.

Roberto Duran achieved a tremendous amount late into his career.

Glen Johnson must be added to the list with 12 losses and he's 42 years old and the dark horse in the Super Middle tournament.

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To me, "overachiever" is a guy who goes far in his career despite having limited talents. IMO, Duran does NOT even come close to fitting that category. Glen Johnson, however, is the poster boy of overachievers.

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I meant Duran late in his career, when he was in his 40's and still beat Castro, Paz and got robbed etc.

1) It has to be Leon Spinks, all time greatest overachiever, he wins a SD against an old and tired Ali in his 8th fight, promptly loses the rematch and then is blasted out in 1 round by Gerrie Coetzee and 3 rounds by Larry Holmes. Career effictively over by age 28! Leon Spinks can lay claim to being undisputed World Heavyweight Champion...if ever there was an over achievement then this was it!

2) Billy Backus beats Welter king Jose Napoles on cuts and becomes undisputed World Welterweight Champion until the re match where he is KO'd in 8 by Napoles. Blink and you would have missed his career altogether. Considering Napoles standing in any top 10 all time Welterweight listings this was one helluva over achievement.

3) Buster Douglas, he survives the long count against Tyson and then pulls off the upset of the century only to be out in 3 rounds against Holyfield 6 months later. Buster Douglas will always be remembered as the man who beat the invincible Mike Tyson, can't take that away from him. Amazing over achievement.

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

1) It has to be Leon Spinks, all time greatest overachiever, he wins a SD against an old and tired Ali in his 8th fight, promptly loses the rematch and then is blasted out in 1 round by Gerrie Coetzee and 3 rounds by Larry Holmes. Career effictively over by age 28! Leon Spinks can lay claim to being undisputed World Heavyweight Champion...if ever there was an over achievement then this was it!

2) Billy Backus beats Welter king Jose Napoles on cuts and becomes undisputed World Welterweight Champion until the re match where he is KO'd in 8 by Napoles. Blink and you would have missed his career altogether. Considering Napoles standing in any top 10 all time Welterweight listings this was one helluva over achievement.

3) Buster Douglas, he survives the long count against Tyson and then pulls off the upset of the century only to be out in 3 rounds against Holyfield 6 months later. Buster Douglas will always be remembered as the man who beat the invincible Mike Tyson, can't take that away from him. Amazing over achievement.

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I think we have the same concept of what an "overachiever" is..... someone who reaches further than he should have, given his set of skills. Leon and Buster both are DEFINITELY in that category. Not too familiar with Backus, though.

IMO the biggest overachiver has to be Leo Gamez he is in the company of Roberto Duran.
Being the only 2 Latino boxers to capture 4 titles in 4 weight classes.
He has accomplished something that Arguello, JMM, Chavez, Napoles, MAB, Trinidad and many other Latino boxers have not been able to do.

Others that spring to mind;

Zivic
Randy Turpin
Schmeling
Ingemar

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

1) It has to be Leon Spinks, all time greatest overachiever, he wins a SD against an old and tired Ali in his 8th fight, promptly loses the rematch and then is blasted out in 1 round by Gerrie Coetzee and 3 rounds by Larry Holmes. Career effictively over by age 28! Leon Spinks can lay claim to being undisputed World Heavyweight Champion...if ever there was an over achievement then this was it!

2) Billy Backus beats Welter king Jose Napoles on cuts and becomes undisputed World Welterweight Champion until the re match where he is KO'd in 8 by Napoles. Blink and you would have missed his career altogether. Considering Napoles standing in any top 10 all time Welterweight listings this was one helluva over achievement.

3) Buster Douglas, he survives the long count against Tyson and then pulls off the upset of the century only to be out in 3 rounds against Holyfield 6 months later. Buster Douglas will always be remembered as the man who beat the invincible Mike Tyson, can't take that away from him. Amazing over achievement.

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Agree 100% with this...

Jersey Joe Walcott, Hasim Rahman, Corrie Sanders, Max Schmeling, Sam Langford(5'6" fought all kinds of weight classes)Johnny Nelson, Jake LaMotta.

"Son, forget about boxing, youre not cut out for it. You have 2 left feet, youre slow as molasses, youre awkward and uncoordinated, and you have no jab and no technique. Plus youre bald."

---a boxing trainer and expert after seeing Rocky Marciano in a gym try-out.