There's not any doubt that Ali was one of boxing's greatest HW champions, one of the most recognized/idolized people in the world, and made an impact on society, but is he an American hero?
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There's not any doubt that Ali was one of boxing's greatest HW champions, one of the most recognized/idolized people in the world, and made an impact on society, but is he an American hero?
I cannot really comment as I am not American but he is certainly a universal hero!
He's certainly one of mine. Not for being a boxing immortal but for showing how civil disobedience is properly done. I disagreed with his action refusing to step forward and enter the service and being associated with slugs like the Black Muslims doesn't speak well of him. But he didn't run to Canada and he didn't sit there and say "woe is me." Instead he accepted his punishment as the cost of sticking to his principles. Ali acted like a man does.
Heros needn't be perfect.
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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Good points, nobody is perfect, especially when we're young. Being the HW champion at the age of 22 must be an intoxicating experience. One thing you can say about Ali, like him or not, he did stick to his principals and he was a man. (anyone who doesn't believe this needs to watch "the thrilla")
There's never been anyone quite like Ali in or out of the ring, so yeah, i'd say he was an American hero.
Cassius Clay was a top boxer who took bad advice from some questionable people.
He is no hero of mine , but I am not American.
someone could come up with a list of a thousand reasons why Ali shouldn't be a hero to anyone
but it wouldn't matter he would continue to be so
so in answer to your question - yes
He's my idol. Although I found some of the remarks he made about Smokin Joe needlessly offensive and not always tounge in cheek.
He stood by his principles and risked losing everything (whether you agree for what he was standing up for or not is irrelevant) - very few people do that who have far less to lose.
The problem with giving someone hero status is that you expect them to be perfect and the simple fact is we are all human and none of us are perfect.
I'm English so can't really answer the original question but yep in my eyes the guy is a legend and a hero.
I don't knock Ali's skill or his impact on the sport and certainly he is a hero to some Americans....I am not one of them. I do not mind people seeing him as a hero, I mean he certainly seemed to stand against the war in Vietnam and being as big of an icon as he was at the time and with the rise of the "counter culture" hitting at the same time I think that has a lot to do with why people think so highly of him. For example, when (former news anchor, now host of HBO's Real Sports) Bryant Gumbel talked about the result of Ali-Frazier I he said "You got the feeling like the bad guys won"...now I for one take offense to that because Joe Frazier wasn't white, he wasn't pro-War, he wasn't "the anti-Ali" in anything other than his fighting style. But the cult of personality that is/was Ali branded Joe Frazier as some sort of collaborator with the status quo because he didn't talk trash, he didn't get involved in politics...and that's a shame for Joe because he basically shared the same view of the war with Ali but he just had a different personality is all...same with Foreman.
Joe Louis is an American hero to me...he served his country honorably, he opened doors for African-Americans to excell and acheive in areas they had previously been unable to participate in for example he got African-Americans onto the PGA tour, he worked towards getting the Armed Forces desegregated, and he won one of the most important fights of the last century.
What eats at me is that when the Counter Culture hit the trail blazers of the past (especially Joe Louis and Jesse Owens) were not trusted, they were not respected, and they were all but shunned by the very people they aimed to help clear a path for just because they had EARNED the respect of the average American of the previous generation. I just wish things hadn't happened that way...and after Louis' death I'm sure Ali felt the same way, I just think it's a shame that those two great champions couldn't have shared a greater bond.
This is a GREAT answer. Joe Louis is as big a hero as Ali was in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Depends on what American's you are talking to.
For most Americans, he was a heroic sports figure. For the repressed "Black Islamic" people he was inspiring, because he was a voice. As a Parkinson's survivor, he moves on with his life which is an inspiration to those who want to throw in the towel. As a symbol of American integrity and values, you'll get some debate but the majority will say he was an true Ambassador just the same.
In case you are still wondering the answer is Yes! he is an American Hero, but not to all Americans.
There are parts of both Ali's personal and professional life that I think of as heroic. The man is definitely an Icon. I don't think of him personally as one of my heroes but I can understand why others would.
Louis is a bigger hero than Ali. Ali calling Louis a sell out and his constant bad mouthing of him is one of the most fucked up things ever. It was totally uncalled for. And it's one of the reason I will always say fuck AliQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThis is a GREAT answer. Joe Louis is as big a hero as Ali was in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Ali was a great boxer and whilst I do admire him for refusing to allow himself to be drafted up, I do take issue with a number of his political and social stances. He was somewhat racist and his attitudes were demeaning to women.
I have no doubt that Ali is American and in turn I do think he is a hero of boxing. As a moral and social force, I think that it takes more than one principled stand against the draft to make a hero in those respects.
True, even bad Mike Tyson has always given his dues to the greats that went before him. Ali was an uncouth pottymouth in that regard. He gave little respect to anyone and would say whatever he could get away with. A total twat in that regard and yet we all look at him as some kind of hero. Look at the stick Mayorga gets on the boards today for the things he says. In terms of rhetoric, Mayorga is no worse than someone like Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseLouis is a bigger hero than Ali. Ali calling Louis a sell out and his constant bad mouthing of him is one of the most fucked up things ever. It was totally uncalled for. And it's one of the reason I will always say fuck AliQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThis is a GREAT answer. Joe Louis is as big a hero as Ali was in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Ali does appear to have been somewhat put on a pedestal and the unsavoury aspects of his life have been dusted under the furniture.
Yeah Tyson was very humble and respectful when it came to talking about the greats that came before him and that comes from Cus D'Mato really preaching the gospel of the greats to him and showing film of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
One guy Ali did have respect for was Jack Johnson and I totally understand that because politics aside he was Ali before Ali ever took a breath much less stepped in the ring. Jack Johnson didn't have any agenda other than Jack Johnson...he was a real pioneer in that manner.
I am American, and although I personally only routed for Ali one time (vs Holmes), I can say he certainly IS an American hero.
With Ali's current health condition being what it is, I know it's hard for me to feel any animosity toward him. Whatever "sins" he may have been guilty of in his youth should now be forgiven and long forgotten. I sincerely hope the man is able to enjoy what's left of his life in peace.
BTW, I think it's safe to say, if there is such a thing these days, Muhammad Ali is without any doubt, an American Hero, I know he is in my book.
Question for the Americans.
It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.
What became the USA was largely initially populated by religious outcasts from Europe, the Pilgrims most famously, but also Roger Williams, William Penn etc. who all chose faiths other than those they were born into. So it was no surprise that the first clause of the Bill of Rights speaks to freedom of religion. From there springs a long American tradition of "conscientious objection." That is that people who seriously examined the issue of war and found on religious grounds they couldn't justify war could be exempted from military service. Such exemptions began during the American Revolution and have continued since. To give just one example of how widespread and accepted this tradition is in the USA, even during WWII over 10,000 men were exempted from service on grounds of conscience. So Ali was standing firmly in an American tradition when he did this. Now many believe he was merely a robot for the thuggish Black Muslims, but I'm convinced he was sincere. His ongoing search for the right branch of Islam for him through his adult life has convinced me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
But many people do think he betrayed the nation. I am not one of them. While I disagreed with his decision? The way he conducted himself throughout the process was exemplary in my view.
Sorry for the long-windedness.
So a hero is one who goes off to fight in an immoral and phoney war on the whims of the government? The ones who refuse to toe the line or keep to the manufactured script are not? I disagree with that line of thinking. I admire Ali for refusing to go to war and think that was actually a very heroic gesture. It might have also been a selfish gesture on his part, but as a stand I think it was quite apt and it is hard to interpret it as not also being a gesture of principle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
As much as I loath organised religion, I do think that is something that boils down to personal choice. If Ali believed that was what he wanted to believe then so be it. I don't understand how being a Muslim could make him anti-American either.
I think there are grounds for dismissing Ali and his views, but the war and being a Muslim are things that I find hard to condemn as anti-American. You could argue that Daniel Elsberg was unpatriotic, but I look at it on the other side of the coin. Those with vested interests and extreme levels of power are quite often themselves far from patriotic or just.
Ali was just an individual finding his way through life. Sometimes he seemed extremely misguided, but in other respects he seemed like a man with his own evolving values. Obviously there were contradictions, but you find that with any evolving intelligent being.
I am not American though, so shall step aside from the soapbox. :p
Let's be really clear about one thing. Ali wasn't then a "Muslim" in the ordinary sense. He was a Black Muslim, aka the Nation of Islam. An American whacko sect formed in the 1930's by a slick huckster named Fard and then taken over by Elijah Muhammad, another huckster. These guys believe things like a scinetist named Yakub created white men as devils, that a large spaceship carrying God had been launched from Japan in the 1920's and that a fleet of UFO's used by God are always around. Not exactly mainsteam Islamic belief huh? These jokers slaughtered Malcolm X for apostasy as well. While Islam may or may not be anti-American (it is certainly opposed to religious freedom), the Black Muslims advocate Black Separatism among other things. That is clearly not an idea consistent with American ideals.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesSo a hero is one who goes off to fight in an immoral and phoney war on the whims of the government? The ones who refuse to toe the line or keep to the manufactured script are not? I disagree with that line of thinking. I admire Ali for refusing to go to war and think that was actually a very heroic gesture. It might have also been a selfish gesture on his part, but as a stand I think it was quite apt and it is hard to interpret it as not also being a gesture of principle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
As much as I loath organised religion, I do think that is something that boils down to personal choice. If Ali believed that was what he wanted to believe then so be it. I don't understand how being a Muslim could make him anti-American either.
I think there are grounds for dismissing Ali and his views, but the war and being a Muslim are things that I find hard to condemn as anti-American. You could argue that Daniel Elsberg was unpatriotic, but I look at it on the other side of the coin. Those with vested interests and extreme levels of power are quite often themselves far from patriotic or just.
Ali was just an individual finding his way through life. Sometimes he seemed extremely misguided, but in other respects he seemed like a man with his own evolving values. Obviously there were contradictions, but you find that with any evolving intelligent being.
I am not American though, so shall step aside from the soapbox. :p
Now Ali has long since broken with them and become a Sufi I believe.
As for Daniel Ellsberg? I think he committed Treason. It may have been what his conscience required, but it was still Treason.
Still, he was a Muslim in the broad sense of the term and as you yourself point out, the freedom to practice whatever strand of religion you believe in is in itself a long enshrined American value. Admittedly, it sounds like a somewhat extreme set of values being enshrined, but I happen to view all religions as equally absurd in that regard. Seperatism is quite awful, but equally bad are Christians who venomously condemn gays or threaten to burn the Koran. I don't think Christians are particularly anti-American either though. Anti-Americanism is too broad a term and I don't think you can say people of any faith are either pro or anti a government system. Extremist elements are probably more inclined to that way of thinking though and to that extent can see how those ALi was associating with might be viewed as somewhat "anti American" or at least against elements of what the government was representing.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiLet's be really clear about one thing. Ali wasn't then a "Muslim" in the ordinary sense. He was a Black Muslim, aka the Nation of Islam. An American whacko sect formed in the 1930's by a slick huckster named Fard and then taken over by Elijah Muhammad, another huckster. These guys believe things like a scinetist named Yakub created white men as devils, that a large spaceship carrying God had been launched from Japan in the 1920's and that a fleet of UFO's used by God are always around. Not exactly mainsteam Islamic belief huh? These jokers slaughtered Malcolm X for apostasy as well. While Islam may or may not be anti-American (it is certainly opposed to religious freedom), the Black Muslims advocate Black Separatism among other things. That is clearly not an idea consistent with American ideals.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesSo a hero is one who goes off to fight in an immoral and phoney war on the whims of the government? The ones who refuse to toe the line or keep to the manufactured script are not? I disagree with that line of thinking. I admire Ali for refusing to go to war and think that was actually a very heroic gesture. It might have also been a selfish gesture on his part, but as a stand I think it was quite apt and it is hard to interpret it as not also being a gesture of principle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
As much as I loath organised religion, I do think that is something that boils down to personal choice. If Ali believed that was what he wanted to believe then so be it. I don't understand how being a Muslim could make him anti-American either.
I think there are grounds for dismissing Ali and his views, but the war and being a Muslim are things that I find hard to condemn as anti-American. You could argue that Daniel Elsberg was unpatriotic, but I look at it on the other side of the coin. Those with vested interests and extreme levels of power are quite often themselves far from patriotic or just.
Ali was just an individual finding his way through life. Sometimes he seemed extremely misguided, but in other respects he seemed like a man with his own evolving values. Obviously there were contradictions, but you find that with any evolving intelligent being.
I am not American though, so shall step aside from the soapbox. :p
Now Ali has long since broken with them and become a Sufi I believe.
As for Daniel Ellsberg? I think he committed Treason. It may have been what his conscience required, but it was still Treason.
I certainly think Ali was quite racist and alluded to that earlier as one of the elements that puts me off him. I struggle to relate to a lot of his views regarding race and women, at least those views espoused quite openly whilst still active as a fighter. I don't really know for sure what he believes these days as it is rare that we hear anything of him. He is often at big events, but we see him carrying the Olympic torch and at charity events, we don't hear the man speak anymore.
Elberg is moving off of topic somewhat, but the point I am making is that it is an extremely general term to state something as anti-American. In the eyes of most on the left at least, Elsberg is regarded as a patriotic American. Not anti-American in the slightest, but you will get those on the right arguing quite the opposite. You have a similar argument going on with Bradley Manning today.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think your view on Ali is well put and hard to argue with very much. As far as "Anti-American" goes, in my view it can be comprised of two things, being in opposition to clear American interests (but ONLY clear ones) or in opposition of basic (but only basic) traditional American values (pluralism, freedom of expression, freedom of religion etc.). It is NEVER in ANY nation's interest to lose a war. It just isn't. And both Ellsberg and Manning acted to make such an event more likely. Now to be fair, dissent, especially dissent in which the actor is willing to pay the price? Clearly in line with basic traditional American values.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesStill, he was a Muslim in the broad sense of the term and as you yourself point out, the freedom to practice whatever strand of religion you believe in is in itself a long enshrined American value. Admittedly, it sounds like a somewhat extreme set of values being enshrined, but I happen to view all religions as equally absurd in that regard. Seperatism is quite awful, but equally bad are Christians who venomously condemn gays or threaten to burn the Koran. I don't think Christians are particularly anti-American either though. Anti-Americanism is too broad a term and I don't think you can say people of any faith are either pro or anti a government system. Extremist elements are probably more inclined to that way of thinking though and to that extent can see how those ALi was associating with might be viewed as somewhat "anti American" or at least against elements of what the government was representing.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiLet's be really clear about one thing. Ali wasn't then a "Muslim" in the ordinary sense. He was a Black Muslim, aka the Nation of Islam. An American whacko sect formed in the 1930's by a slick huckster named Fard and then taken over by Elijah Muhammad, another huckster. These guys believe things like a scinetist named Yakub created white men as devils, that a large spaceship carrying God had been launched from Japan in the 1920's and that a fleet of UFO's used by God are always around. Not exactly mainsteam Islamic belief huh? These jokers slaughtered Malcolm X for apostasy as well. While Islam may or may not be anti-American (it is certainly opposed to religious freedom), the Black Muslims advocate Black Separatism among other things. That is clearly not an idea consistent with American ideals.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesSo a hero is one who goes off to fight in an immoral and phoney war on the whims of the government? The ones who refuse to toe the line or keep to the manufactured script are not? I disagree with that line of thinking. I admire Ali for refusing to go to war and think that was actually a very heroic gesture. It might have also been a selfish gesture on his part, but as a stand I think it was quite apt and it is hard to interpret it as not also being a gesture of principle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
As much as I loath organised religion, I do think that is something that boils down to personal choice. If Ali believed that was what he wanted to believe then so be it. I don't understand how being a Muslim could make him anti-American either.
I think there are grounds for dismissing Ali and his views, but the war and being a Muslim are things that I find hard to condemn as anti-American. You could argue that Daniel Elsberg was unpatriotic, but I look at it on the other side of the coin. Those with vested interests and extreme levels of power are quite often themselves far from patriotic or just.
Ali was just an individual finding his way through life. Sometimes he seemed extremely misguided, but in other respects he seemed like a man with his own evolving values. Obviously there were contradictions, but you find that with any evolving intelligent being.
I am not American though, so shall step aside from the soapbox. :p
Now Ali has long since broken with them and become a Sufi I believe.
As for Daniel Ellsberg? I think he committed Treason. It may have been what his conscience required, but it was still Treason.
I certainly think Ali was quite racist and alluded to that earlier as one of the elements that puts me off him. I struggle to relate to a lot of his views regarding race and women, at least those views espoused quite openly whilst still active as a fighter. I don't really know for sure what he believes these days as it is rare that we hear anything of him. He is often at big events, but we see him carrying the Olympic torch and at charity events, we don't hear the man speak anymore.
Elberg is moving off of topic somewhat, but the point I am making is that it is an extremely general term to state something as anti-American. In the eyes of most on the left at least, Elsberg is regarded as a patriotic American. Not anti-American in the slightest, but you will get those on the right arguing quite the opposite. You have a similar argument going on with Bradley Manning today.
To come back to Ali, I don't believe Ali acted in an anti-American matter as an individual. I believe the Nation of Islam did and does so on a routine basis. That he broke with them speaks well of him.
Ali should be an all American hero he believed and he achieved just like the American dream.
In terms of boxing, he can be regarded as nothing less than a hero. He was phenomenal and to come back after that long layoff and stake his claim at the top was an exceptional achievement. A special fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Gonna get accused of trolling even though I'm not....
Can he really be an american hero? After all he did refuse to go and invade someone elses country and kill a load of innocent people. Usually it's the other weay round to be called a hero these days.....
And thats before we get sarted on the fact hes a muslim....
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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
I agree with you, Ali is no hero and can never be. He is put on this pedestal only because of his illness. Great boxer yes, disrespectful piece of sh*t yes.
Ali was for Ali and that's it, how can anyone call him an American Hero when he cared about no one but himself. ?
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Originally Posted by stebsQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
I agree with you, Ali is no hero and can never be.He is put on this pedestal only because of his illness. Great boxer yes, disrespectful piece of sh*t yes.
Ali was for Ali and that's it, how can anyone call him an American Hero when he cared about no one but himself. ?
This whole statement bothered me since I hit (submit reply).
It sounds harsh and it's wrong, he can be considered a hero by many as someone who stood up and spoke out for the civil rights movement in America.
Yep Ali was a disrespectful cold hearted punk to Joe Louis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseLouis is a bigger hero than Ali. Ali calling Louis a sell out and his constant bad mouthing of him is one of the most fucked up things ever. It was totally uncalled for. And it's one of the reason I will always say fuck AliQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThis is a GREAT answer. Joe Louis is as big a hero as Ali was in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Louis had a great comeback to him once tho.
Ali: "Joe all you ever did was fight the bum of the month."
Louis: "You woulda been one of the bums."
To be fair Ali did also say that Louis was the greatest. Most champions had criticism from older champs, Johnson to Dempsey, to Louis, to Ali, to Holmes to Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkYep Ali was a disrespectful cold hearted punk to Joe Louis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseLouis is a bigger hero than Ali. Ali calling Louis a sell out and his constant bad mouthing of him is one of the most fucked up things ever. It was totally uncalled for. And it's one of the reason I will always say fuck AliQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThis is a GREAT answer. Joe Louis is as big a hero as Ali was in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Louis had a great comeback to him once tho.
Ali: "Joe all you ever did was fight the bum of the month."
Louis: "You woulda been one of the bums."
Ali was a cult of personality and extremely popular due to the counter culture. Much like a certain President of a certain country, people projected views on Ali...and the big reasons he was popular with the counter culture were: he was loud, charismatic, black, against the war, and not a Christian it made him seem more exotic and spiritual to the group of people who strayed from their parents views and beliefs to the generation before Rocky Marciano was a hero: quiet, humble, hard working, and had more of a grind it out fighting style. Ali also had a more free loose style which also helped him stand out.
Contrary to popular belief I've got no issues with Islam...but "The Nation" is a bunch of crooks and thugs and they are bat shit crazy, crazier than Scientologists!
Crazier than fundamentalist mormons ???Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Yes...when their leader says he visited Elijah Muhammad on a spaceship hovering over the Earth...I say he's a bit out there.
That was funny...and true!Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
He might be ones favorite boxer.......(not mine)
But American Hero? He is quite the opposite in every aspect imaginable.
Put it on the next presidential ballot so we can get everyones vote...I bet everything it would be a convincing NO....nothing American about the fuck
He won the Olympic gold medal for you guys, how American hero can you be. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mafiajoey
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Originally Posted by MasterHe won the Olympic gold medal for you guys, how American hero can you be. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mafiajoey
He said he threw it in a river as he was disgusted with America, so how can he be a American hero.
He said that was untrue I believe, when his book came out and he was questioned on it, he said he'd lost it somehow but he hadn't thrown it in a river. That was something the Nation of Islam fabricated. He actually said he was so proud of that medal he didn't take it off for weeks after the OlympicsQuote:
Originally Posted by stebsQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterHe won the Olympic gold medal for you guys, how American hero can you be. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mafiajoey
He said he threw it in a river as he was disgusted with America, so how can he be a American hero.
I am not American but if he's not then I don't know who would be. The term "hero" could mean many different things to many different people though.
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Originally Posted by IamInuit
I guess "hero's" are a little like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. In my humble opinion Ali is a hero to many Americans, and just guessing, i'd say if you ask most black Americans if Ali was a hero, the overwhelming majority would say yes.
I agree that "hero" could mean many different things to many different people, like someone said, hero's don't have to be perfect and none ever are.