Angelo Dundee on David Haye - the senile old fool

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Legendary American trainer Angelo Dundee has seen WBA heavyweight champion David Haye in the flesh for the first time and predicts the Londoner will become one of the sport's all-time great heavyweights.

Haye is in training at Dundee's legendary Miami Fifth Street Gym and despite the man who guided Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard approaching his 90th birthday, he still casts his eye over his gym's fighters on a daily basis.

"I watched him and he was training in my Fifth Street Gym," Dundee told the BBC. "I was pleased - I felt like he belonged right to that gym. He's an interesting human being. It was my first time being in person with the kid. I'm impressed because I like the way he handles himself and I like the people around him. There's much more than meets the eye.

"I like everything about his style. I love a boxer, he can box and move. He feels at home in the gym and that's important because that's where the kids get in shape. he's blends with the gym. When Muhammad first came to Miami and to my gym he blended with the gym, the ring, the guys and he's one of the guys. David Haye can blend in anywhere, England should be proud of him.

"There's a smile on his face and he talks. We've got to have fighters that talk so you (journalists) have something to say and somethign to write and DH gives you everything. And he can fight that's the important thing.

"David Haye will go down in history, he's excellent, I'm very impressed.

"I'm the worst picker in the world and I don't want to jinx the kid but to me he should beat Klitschko. You've got to go one fight at a time and take them as they come.

"David Haye, after he knocks out Klitschko, will be with the top 15 (of all-time heavyweights). He's for real, he can fight and he knows what he's doing.

"Every era has a different great fighter and David Haye belongs to this era. I respect him as a heck of a fighter."

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Words fail me.

Angelo Dundee has lost the plot ! Top 15 of all time :o

the old fella is 90 so we need to give him that at least. Just remember what he was like prior to the Dela Hoya Pac fight to know not to listen to him.

It would be hard to agree with him. However, I feel like he's just excited to have a HW world champion training at his gym, especially because it could well be the last one he'll see due to his venerable age.
Considering this, it would be hard to expect him to say: "yeah, Haye is training at my Gym, he's a very sympathic fella but I feel like he's boxing like shit and will get mauled within 6 rounds".
I think it's just excitement and a bit of a kuddos for a HW champion training at his gym, really. Beside, such comments are good to stir up the whole promotion and to give more attention to his gym.

He's getting a paycheck to hype a fight. What's he gonna say?

I don't agree with what he's saying despite being a Haye fan. He will not be top 15 after he beats Klit (which he will do) he needs to do MUCH more for that kind of accolade.

I do hope Haye is listening to Dundee though. Despite being an old man I still think he can teach ANYONE new tricks. IMO Dundee is the greatest trainer of all time.

I've always liked Dundee, but he's as full of shit as a Xmas turkey if he actually believes Haye will defeat Wlad Klitschko and go on to become a top 15 all-time heavyweight. Remember this is the same bullshitter who predicted Ali was going to defeat Larry Holmes, despite Ali already showing early signs of pugilistic dementia, I take everything Dundee says with a grain of salt.

Like someone said, Dundee is getting paid to Hype/promote the fight, and Haye is using and advertizing Dundee's his gym in Miami, so it's what you can expect.

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

I've always liked Dundee, but he's as full of shit as a Xmas turkey if he actually believes Haye will defeat Wlad Klitschko and go on to become a top 15 all-time heavyweight. Remember this is the same bullshitter who predicted Ali was going to defeat Larry Holmes, despite Ali already showing early signs of pugilistic dementia, I take everything Dundee says with a grain of salt.

Like someone said, Dundee is getting paid to Hype/promote the fight, and Haye is using and advertizing Dundee's his gym in Miami, so it's what you can expect.

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For a start Haye will beat Wlad and I'll remind you of my prediction on the 3rd July.

But really what did you expect Dundee to say Ali was going to do vs Holmes? He was training Ali for christ sake. Have you ever known a trainer go into a world title fight saying his guy was going to lose?

Let the great man say what he wants.

Angelo Dundee knows more about boxing than ANYONE and everyone combined on this site.

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

I've always liked Dundee, but he's as full of shit as a Xmas turkey if he actually believes Haye will defeat Wlad Klitschko and go on to become a top 15 all-time heavyweight. Remember this is the same bullshitter who predicted Ali was going to defeat Larry Holmes, despite Ali already showing early signs of pugilistic dementia, I take everything Dundee says with a grain of salt.

Like someone said, Dundee is getting paid to Hype/promote the fight, and Haye is using and advertizing Dundee's his gym in Miami, so it's what you can expect.

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For a start Haye will beat Wlad and I'll remind you of my prediction on the 3rd July.

But really what did you expect Dundee to say Ali was going to do vs Holmes? He was training Ali for christ sake. Have you ever known a trainer go into a world title fight saying his guy was going to lose?

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OK, rjj tszyu, and i'll remind you July 3rd, after Wlad annihilates Haye, and makes your prediction look foolish. :cool:

Angelo Dundee first came to prominence because Carmen Basilio liked the way he wrapped his hands- not because of his 'genius.' He was picked to 'train' Ali precisely because he would not train him: after the experiment with Archie Moore training Ali, it was decided to put him in the hands of somebody that wouldn't try to teach him anything. Leonard was the same way- he was finished product when he got to Dundee and was there because Dundee wouldn't/couldn't mess with his style. He is considered a great trainer because he once said "You're losing it son" to a fighter that already knew that and was fighting accordingly.
Or, in short form, he's been senile since the mid-1950s.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Angelo Dundee first came to prominence because Carmen Basilio liked the way he wrapped his hands- not because of his 'genius.' He was picked to 'train' Ali precisely because he would not train him: after the experiment with Archie Moore training Ali, it was decided to put him in the hands of somebody that wouldn't try to teach him anything. Leonard was the same way- he was finished product when he got to Dundee and was there because Dundee wouldn't/couldn't mess with his style. He is considered a great trainer because he once said "You're losing it son" to a fighter that already knew that and was fighting accordingly.
Or, in short form, he's been senile since the mid-1950s.

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Good points grey, just because Dundee has been around boxing a long time and "trained" Ali & Leonard is no reason to think he's some kind of boxing genius, just fortunate to have associated with 2 great fighters.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Angelo Dundee first came to prominence because Carmen Basilio liked the way he wrapped his hands- not because of his 'genius.' He was picked to 'train' Ali precisely because he would not train him: after the experiment with Archie Moore training Ali, it was decided to put him in the hands of somebody that wouldn't try to teach him anything. Leonard was the same way- he was finished product when he got to Dundee and was there because Dundee wouldn't/couldn't mess with his style. He is considered a great trainer because he once said "You're losing it son" to a fighter that already knew that and was fighting accordingly.
Or, in short form, he's been senile since the mid-1950s.

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So now you think Ali and Leonard were the finished article after the olympics??

Retard springs to mind!!

Now, if you are calling me a 'retard', that is just out of line. I have never, in any way, disrespected you. If we differ in opinion, it should at least be civil.
But I would humbly suggest you read up a bit on your boxing history.

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Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Angelo Dundee knows more about boxing than ANYONE and everyone combined on this site.

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Yup. Including knowing how to hype a fight!

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Now, if you are calling me a 'retard', that is just out of line. I have never, in any way, disrespected you. If we differ in opinion, it should at least be civil.
But I would humbly suggest you read up a bit on your boxing history.

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So in your opinion were Ali and Leonard the finished article before they even turned pro then?

My boxing knowledge is just fine by the way. As far as calling you a retard....... Sorry it was early and I was tired and out of line.

I think you guys are being harsh on Angelo, Haye is the nearest thing the heavyweights have to Ali at the moment.

Haye has speed, agility, a big mouth, accurate counter punching etc. No Haye will never be a top 15 heavyweight i find that comment a bit odd. We will really see what Haye has in July, he's so totally unproven because of all the tamato cans he's faced, but to me he shows flashes of real skill in the ring now and again.

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Now, if you are calling me a 'retard', that is just out of line. I have never, in any way, disrespected you. If we differ in opinion, it should at least be civil.
But I would humbly suggest you read up a bit on your boxing history.

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So in your opinion were Ali and Leonard the finished article before they even turned pro then?

My boxing knowledge is just fine by the way. As far as calling you a retard....... Sorry it was early and I was tired and out of line.

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Fair enough.
Leonard was trained from his first day boxing by Janks Morton and Dave Jacobs and they continued on with him in the pro ranks. Dundee was brought in with the understanding that he not interfere with their program: his primary function was in selecting opponents and working the corner on fight night. The day to day gym work and training was done by Jacobs and Morton.
With Ali, he didn't like Archie Moore trying to teach him things son he was sent to Dundee because he'd let him do things his way. At the time Ali and Dundee were often criticized because he wasn't seen to be developing as a pro: excessive movement, no body punching, not fighting inside, and insisting on punching to the top of the head were all considered 'not good' and something he needed to be broken of. Of course, it all turned out ok for him (though he did have sore hands his whole career), but Dundee didn't teach him a whole bunch.
And I shouldn't have made the crack about your boxing knowledge.

Grey does know his stuff i've seen him in the training boards, i think he's some famous trainer. I wish he would tell me in a PM ;)

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Now, if you are calling me a 'retard', that is just out of line. I have never, in any way, disrespected you. If we differ in opinion, it should at least be civil.
But I would humbly suggest you read up a bit on your boxing history.

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So in your opinion were Ali and Leonard the finished article before they even turned pro then?

My boxing knowledge is just fine by the way. As far as calling you a retard....... Sorry it was early and I was tired and out of line.

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Fair enough.
Leonard was trained from his first day boxing by Janks Morton and Dave Jacobs and they continued on with him in the pro ranks. Dundee was brought in with the understanding that he not interfere with their program: his primary function was in selecting opponents and working the corner on fight night. The day to day gym work and training was done by Jacobs and Morton.
With Ali, he didn't like Archie Moore trying to teach him things son he was sent to Dundee because he'd let him do things his way. At the time Ali and Dundee were often criticized because he wasn't seen to be developing as a pro: excessive movement, no body punching, not fighting inside, and insisting on punching to the top of the head were all considered 'not good' and something he needed to be broken of. Of course, it all turned out ok for him (though he did have sore hands his whole career), but Dundee didn't teach him a whole bunch.
And I shouldn't have made the crack about your boxing knowledge.

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Ok I know where you are coming from now. This is my understanding and opinion of Dundee!

Dundee was great at getting Ali ready for his fights by picking VERY GOOD sparring partners and making him learn how to fight effectively against his next opponent. Been looking for some old videos I have seen before of them at work in the gym and Angelo giving instructions to Ali, then seeing Ali absorb the instructions or admittedly sometimes completely ignoring him (part of what made Ali so great was his own boxing brain). I have found something but not the one I have seen in the past. This is more Dundee commentating on Ali's sessions rather than showing his ability to get his message across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni-3zx8TvAk

Also People like "Sugar" Ramos, Willie Pastrano and Luis Rodriguez learned a hell of a lot from Dundee and IMO are better examples of how good a trainer he was as they were not blessed with as much god given talent as the 2 most famous Dundee "students"!

I knew Dundee wasn't an ever present in Leonards camps but I was under the impression he had a tendency to join with 4 weeks remaining and then the tactics and game plan were worked on from there between Dundee and Leonard. This is not an uncommon practice for top trainers though, I know Manny Steward had a similar philosophy with Hamed (although I disagree with it personally). You certainly seem to know your boxing though and despite my rude rant this morning I have enjoyed our little chat. Again I apologize for that!

If Angelo nurtured the natural talent that Ali and Leonard had then credit to him, from what you are saying the great Archie Moore could not do it. Dundee was not trusted by the Black Muslims and so Ali showed great loyalty by sticking with him during that early period too.

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Originally Posted by Master

If Angelo nurtured the natural talent that Ali and Leonard had then credit to him, from what you are saying the great Archie Moore could not do it. Dundee was not trusted by the Black Muslims and so Ali showed great loyalty by sticking with him during that early period too.

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Great point. It would have been very easy to leave Dundee at that point. Ali knew he was onto something good if you ask me!