Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Pay attention to the muthafukkin title. Mexican-American fighters. That means fighters that are US born and are of Mexican decent. So that means Mexican fighters like Julio Cesar Chavez, Erik Morales and the rest are not eligible. I'm also well aware Antonio Margarito is US born. But wasn't raised in the US. His situation is indeed unique. He went to Mexico as an infant and was raised as if he was born there. He speaks Spanish and little to no English. And unlike the other fighters I don't think Margarito has even been referred to as being Mexican-American once in his life. So with that, I decide to count him as if he was born in Mexico. The list was made like in 10 minutes. So there's a chance I left somebody out. But the list is without a doubt on point. Anybody that disagrees can go fuck themselves.
- Oscar De La Hoya
- Orlando Canizales
- Manuel Ortiz
- Danny Lopez
- Michael Carbajal
- Bobby Chacon
- Johnny Tapia
- Genaro Hernandez
- Paulie Ayala
- Tony Lopez
- Fernando Vargas
- Danny Romero
- Gaby Canizales
- Mando Ramos
- Diego Corrales
- Juan Díaz
- Robert Guerrero
- Jesse James Leija
- Art Aragon
- Solly Smith
- Alberto Davila
- Richie Sandoval
- Roberto Garcia
- Victor Ortiz
- Louie Espinoza
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
What about MAB???
Just kidding. Good looking list.
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Good list and pleased to see vargas placed quite high too.
I reckon Guerrero and Ortiz have enough time to move up over the next few years.
Would like to see Juan Diaz get back on form
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!
I think you got most of the right names. I'd argue Carlos Palomino belongs even though born in Mexico. He moved to the US as a toddler IIRC. Isn't the same true of the Ruelas' Brothers? If Margarito is excluded, shouldn't these guys be included? But, your list, your criteria.
Here are some that would be on my list. Oscar Alborado (154 strapholder), Raul Marquez (154 strapholder), Ernie Lopez was a tremendous welter and fought for the undisputed crown twice, Jaime Garza (122 strapholder), how about Tony Ayala Junior?, Hell Mike Ayala was far more accomplished than Victor Ortiz.
But again, my compliments. Our debate would be over the last 7-8 names out of 25.
The bad news is you have the order screwed up in my view. The first two are too high, as is Tony Lopez while Art Aragon, Manuel Ortiz, Mando Ramos are too low. I'd move some other guys around too. A valiant effort though.
I'd love to talk more, but I'll be busy fucking myself for a while now.
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Swap Diego C around with Fernando V make me happier.
Just always thought Varges over rated himself I've never had faith in his mental attitude.
Glad you got Carbajal up high up there.
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
It's all about the Paisa bro.
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!
I think you got most of the right names. I'd argue Carlos Palomino belongs even though born in Mexico. He moved to the US as a toddler IIRC. Isn't the same true of the Ruelas' Brothers? If Margarito is excluded, shouldn't these guys be included? But, your list, your criteria.
Here are some that would be on my list. Oscar Alborado (154 strapholder), Raul Marquez (154 strapholder), Ernie Lopez was a tremendous welter and fought for the undisputed crown twice, Jaime Garza (122 strapholder), how about Tony Ayala Junior?, Hell Mike Ayala was far more accomplished than Victor Ortiz.
But again, my compliments. Our debate would be over the last 7-8 names out of 25.
The bad news is you have the order screwed up in my view. The first two are too high, as is Tony Lopez while Art Aragon, Manuel Ortiz, Mando Ramos are too low. I'd move some other guys around too. A valiant effort though.
I'd love to talk more, but I'll be busy fucking myself for a while now.
The Ruelas brothers have been called and considered Mexican fighters a lot of times. Margarito I don't think has ever been called a Mexican-American fighter before. So I excluded them just for that reason
I stand by my placements (who would you have 1 & 2?). Oscar has his critics. But they can't change facts. Decorated amateur career that included an Olympic Gold Medal and several other championships. As a pro he won 10 championships in 6 weight classes. He defeated 20 title holders and 2 ATG (should of been 4). Not to mention after Tyson and before Mayweather/Pacquiao Oscar pretty much carried Boxing on his back. Canizales is a Hall of Famer. He made i believe a total of 16 title defenses. He cleaned out the Batamweight division. He finished at 50-5. But that very easily could of been 54-1. His last 4 losses were all by SD that easily could of gone his way. The man had an iron chin. To my knowledge I don't think he was ever dropped. Can't recall.
Ortiz I have at 3. I don't consider that low. Ramos was a difficult one. I originally had him top 5 when I started. I gave him a lot of credit for challenging for a title at 18 years old I believe it was. And for winning it at 20. What hurt him was he didn't do much as champion and the fact that he was pretty much washed up at 24 years old. What hurt the original Golden Boy Art Aragon was never being champion. He was hella popular. And if it came down to who banged the most best looking broads it's a 3 man race between him, De La Hoya and Ramos. Sadly for him that's not the case
There are some fighters I left out that could easily be swapped in. The Ayala's, Raul Marquez, Garza, Alborado and maybe even Steven Luevano. I also do think I might of reached a little to much on Louie Espinosa. But I'm satisfied. The Mexican list will be much, much tougher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Swap Diego C around with Fernando V make me happier.
Just always thought Varges over rated himself I've never had faith in his mental attitude.
Glad you got Carbajal up high up there.
Corrales was a little tough. I didn't wanna over place him just cuz he's deceased. At the same time he did have good accomplishments. I could swap him with Vargas and be ok with it. I mean I understand people's views on Vargas. And he did underacheve a little. And his career was kind of short. But he did fight Yory Boy Campas, Raul Marquez, Ike Quartey, Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya, Wilfredo Rivera, Ricardo Mayorga, Winky Wright and Shane Mosley in that short career
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
I thought Corrales was Puerto rican, but he's part Columbian, part Mexican. So does he count for this list?
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
I thought Corrales was Puerto rican, but he's part Columbian, part Mexican. So does he count for this list?
His mom is Mexican
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
It's a good list. I'm stumped trying to think of someone that isnt on the list that should be.
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Rios and Mickey Garcia may be worthy once they get a few more big fights under their belts. Theres also up and comers like Mike Alvarado, Danny Garcia and Jesse Vargas, who may have a shot at breaking into the top 25.
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Informative...VD is there really a Mexican and American-Mex rivalry? can you name some, aside from infamous ODLH-JCC Sr.
Btw former champion Steve Luevano is also American-Mexican right?
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
I always thought that Alberto Sandoval was a better fighter than Richie, despite the championship, and I'd go with Antonio or Julio Diaz over Luevano.
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!
I think you got most of the right names. I'd argue Carlos Palomino belongs even though born in Mexico. He moved to the US as a toddler IIRC. Isn't the same true of the Ruelas' Brothers? If Margarito is excluded, shouldn't these guys be included? But, your list, your criteria.
Here are some that would be on my list. Oscar Alborado (154 strapholder), Raul Marquez (154 strapholder), Ernie Lopez was a tremendous welter and fought for the undisputed crown twice, Jaime Garza (122 strapholder), how about Tony Ayala Junior?, Hell Mike Ayala was far more accomplished than Victor Ortiz.
But again, my compliments. Our debate would be over the last 7-8 names out of 25.
The bad news is you have the order screwed up in my view. The first two are too high, as is Tony Lopez while Art Aragon, Manuel Ortiz, Mando Ramos are too low. I'd move some other guys around too. A valiant effort though.
I'd love to talk more, but I'll be busy fucking myself for a while now.
The Ruelas brothers have been called and considered Mexican fighters a lot of times. Margarito I don't think has ever been called a Mexican-American fighter before. So I excluded them just for that reason
I stand by my placements (who would you have 1 & 2?). Oscar has his critics. But they can't change facts. Decorated amateur career that included an Olympic Gold Medal and several other championships. As a pro he won 10 championships in 6 weight classes. He defeated 20 title holders and 2 ATG (should of been 4). Not to mention after Tyson and before Mayweather/Pacquiao Oscar pretty much carried Boxing on his back. Canizales is a Hall of Famer. He made i believe a total of 16 title defenses. He cleaned out the Batamweight division. He finished at 50-5. But that very easily could of been 54-1. His last 4 losses were all by SD that easily could of gone his way. The man had an iron chin. To my knowledge I don't think he was ever dropped. Can't recall.
Ortiz I have at 3. I don't consider that low. Ramos was a difficult one. I originally had him top 5 when I started. I gave him a lot of credit for challenging for a title at 18 years old I believe it was. And for winning it at 20. What hurt him was he didn't do much as champion and the fact that he was pretty much washed up at 24 years old. What hurt the original Golden Boy Art Aragon was never being champion. He was hella popular. And if it came down to who banged the most best looking broads it's a 3 man race between him, De La Hoya and Ramos. Sadly for him that's not the case
There are some fighters I left out that could easily be swapped in. The Ayala's, Raul Marquez, Garza, Alborado and maybe even Steven Luevano. I also do think I might of reached a little to much on Louie Espinosa. But I'm satisfied. The Mexican list will be much, much tougher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Swap Diego C around with Fernando V make me happier.
Just always thought Varges over rated himself I've never had faith in his mental attitude.
Glad you got Carbajal up high up there.
Corrales was a little tough. I didn't wanna over place him just cuz he's deceased. At the same time he did have good accomplishments. I could swap him with Vargas and be ok with it. I mean I understand people's views on Vargas. And he did underacheve a little. And his career was kind of short. But he did fight Yory Boy Campas, Raul Marquez, Ike Quartey, Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya, Wilfredo Rivera, Ricardo Mayorga, Winky Wright and Shane Mosley in that short career
Like I sad, your list, your criteria. I think the #1 is Manuel Ortiz by a mile. Being a THE MAN champion in a time of eight divisions and eight champions and defending that title as many times as Ortiz did is THE qunitessential boxing measure of excellence in my view. What makes defending a championship that way so special is it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to cherry pick styles advantageous to you. It is the "I can lick any SOB in the house" idea that is the cornerstone of the sport.
The ten belts in six division crap is just that, crap. You are either THE MAN in a given division or you are not. Oscar is a fine fighter, but he shouldn't get credit because the sport has idluted what "champion" means. It is like equating division championships in baseball with winning the world series. In the same way you punsh Art Aragon for not being a champion. It's true, but he was fighting in a time when the sport had EIGHT champs. Canizales is a function of the explosion of belts. A good fighter who not only didn't clean out the divisaion, he never fought the great challenge of his time in his division. Aragon defeated twice as many ranked guys. I agree Mando is a toughie. But he DFID become THE MAN at his weight, something Canizales (for example) never did.
Again, thanks for the post. It makes for thinking.
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Where's Arreola? ??? ;D
Good list VD...
For me personally I've never rated Guerrero I feel he's just found ways to get the wins.
Still think he found the easy way out vs. Cino.
Could be just that I had predicted Cino to beat him and that I wanted it to happen badly.
:(
He does nothing special in the ring that leads me to believe he can stay as a champ when facing the top guys in a weight class.
As long as he continues fighting opponents ranked between 6-15 he'll continue to win.
I think I would have Mares somewhere there on the bottom side of the list.
How about Juan Lazcano... Honor mentions?
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Rios and Mickey Garcia may be worthy once they get a few more big fights under their belts. Theres also up and comers like Mike Alvarado, Danny Garcia and Jesse Vargas, who may have a shot at breaking into the top 25.
This list will have a lot of changes in the next 20 years. There is a lot of Mexican-American prospects coming up. A lot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
I always thought that Alberto Sandoval was a better fighter than Richie, despite the championship, and I'd go with Antonio or Julio Diaz over Luevano.
Richie made it off his win over the Great Jeff Chandler. I never thought highly of Richie. But I do of Chandler.
The Diaz brothers are Mexican born.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!
I think you got most of the right names. I'd argue Carlos Palomino belongs even though born in Mexico. He moved to the US as a toddler IIRC. Isn't the same true of the Ruelas' Brothers? If Margarito is excluded, shouldn't these guys be included? But, your list, your criteria.
Here are some that would be on my list. Oscar Alborado (154 strapholder), Raul Marquez (154 strapholder), Ernie Lopez was a tremendous welter and fought for the undisputed crown twice, Jaime Garza (122 strapholder), how about Tony Ayala Junior?, Hell Mike Ayala was far more accomplished than Victor Ortiz.
But again, my compliments. Our debate would be over the last 7-8 names out of 25.
The bad news is you have the order screwed up in my view. The first two are too high, as is Tony Lopez while Art Aragon, Manuel Ortiz, Mando Ramos are too low. I'd move some other guys around too. A valiant effort though.
I'd love to talk more, but I'll be busy fucking myself for a while now.
The Ruelas brothers have been called and considered Mexican fighters a lot of times. Margarito I don't think has ever been called a Mexican-American fighter before. So I excluded them just for that reason
I stand by my placements (who would you have 1 & 2?). Oscar has his critics. But they can't change facts. Decorated amateur career that included an Olympic Gold Medal and several other championships. As a pro he won 10 championships in 6 weight classes. He defeated 20 title holders and 2 ATG (should of been 4). Not to mention after Tyson and before Mayweather/Pacquiao Oscar pretty much carried Boxing on his back. Canizales is a Hall of Famer. He made i believe a total of 16 title defenses. He cleaned out the Batamweight division. He finished at 50-5. But that very easily could of been 54-1. His last 4 losses were all by SD that easily could of gone his way. The man had an iron chin. To my knowledge I don't think he was ever dropped. Can't recall.
Ortiz I have at 3. I don't consider that low. Ramos was a difficult one. I originally had him top 5 when I started. I gave him a lot of credit for challenging for a title at 18 years old I believe it was. And for winning it at 20. What hurt him was he didn't do much as champion and the fact that he was pretty much washed up at 24 years old. What hurt the original Golden Boy Art Aragon was never being champion. He was hella popular. And if it came down to who banged the most best looking broads it's a 3 man race between him, De La Hoya and Ramos. Sadly for him that's not the case
There are some fighters I left out that could easily be swapped in. The Ayala's, Raul Marquez, Garza, Alborado and maybe even Steven Luevano. I also do think I might of reached a little to much on Louie Espinosa. But I'm satisfied. The Mexican list will be much, much tougher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Swap Diego C around with Fernando V make me happier.
Just always thought Varges over rated himself I've never had faith in his mental attitude.
Glad you got Carbajal up high up there.
Corrales was a little tough. I didn't wanna over place him just cuz he's deceased. At the same time he did have good accomplishments. I could swap him with Vargas and be ok with it. I mean I understand people's views on Vargas. And he did underacheve a little. And his career was kind of short. But he did fight Yory Boy Campas, Raul Marquez, Ike Quartey, Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya, Wilfredo Rivera, Ricardo Mayorga, Winky Wright and Shane Mosley in that short career
Like I sad, your list, your criteria. I think the #1 is Manuel Ortiz by a mile. Being a THE MAN champion in a time of eight divisions and eight champions and defending that title as many times as Ortiz did is THE qunitessential boxing measure of excellence in my view. What makes defending a championship that way so special is it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to cherry pick styles advantageous to you. It is the "I can lick any SOB in the house" idea that is the cornerstone of the sport.
The ten belts in six division crap is just that, crap. You are either THE MAN in a given division or you are not. Oscar is a fine fighter, but he shouldn't get credit because the sport has idluted what "champion" means. It is like equating division championships in baseball with winning the world series. In the same way you punsh Art Aragon for not being a champion. It's true, but he was fighting in a time when the sport had EIGHT champs. Canizales is a function of the explosion of belts. A good fighter who not only didn't clean out the divisaion, he never fought the great challenge of his time in his division. Aragon defeated twice as many ranked guys. I agree Mando is a toughie. But he DFID become THE MAN at his weight, something Canizales (for example) never did.
Again, thanks for the post. It makes for thinking.
I agree that to be champion you have to the actual champion. That should be the criteria use to judge. Sadly for us that's no longer the case. And the amount of titles a fighter won will carry weight. Either way the fighters De La Hoya fought were pretty much all the top fighters of his era. He ducked nobody. I agree Artagon beat a lot of ranked fighters. But he lost and struggled with fighters he really shouldn't of lost or struggled with. He was clearly light years better than both Mario Trigo and John Davis. Yet both gave him problems. I see your point regarding Canizales. He kind of is a product of the splintered titles. But at the same time, where you think Ramos deserves credit for being the man, don't you think he's hurt by the fact he wasn't the man for very long and that his career was pretty much over at 24?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
Where's Arreola? ??? ;D
Good list VD...
For me personally I've never rated Guerrero I feel he's just found ways to get the wins.
Still think he found the easy way out vs. Cino.
Could be just that I had predicted Cino to beat him and that I wanted it to happen badly.
:(
He does nothing special in the ring that leads me to believe he can stay as a champ when facing the top guys in a weight class.
As long as he continues fighting opponents ranked between 6-15 he'll continue to win.
I think I would have Mares somewhere there on the bottom side of the list.
How about Juan Lazcano... Honor mentions?
Rather he's highly regarded or not Guerrero is still winning. Cino only enjoyed like what a round and half of success against him? To think he was going to win based on that is going over board. While I do think Guerrero should of let his corner work on the cut, there's no denying it was an ugly cut
Arreola and Lazcano I don't think did or have done enough to make top 25
Mares is Mexican born
Re: Top 25 Mexican-American Fighters Ever
Violentdemise wrote
I agree that to be champion you have to the actual champion. That should be the criteria use to judge. Sadly for us that's no longer the case. And the amount of titles a fighter won will carry weight. Either way the fighters De La Hoya fought were pretty much all the top fighters of his era. He ducked nobody. I agree Artagon beat a lot of ranked fighters. But he lost and struggled with fighters he really shouldn't of lost or struggled with. He was clearly light years better than both Mario Trigo and John Davis. Yet both gave him problems. I see your point regarding Canizales. He kind of is a product of the splintered titles. But at the same time, where you think Ramos deserves credit for being the man, don't you think he's hurt by the fact he wasn't the man for very long and that his career was pretty much over at 24?
Another good post. With a guy like Aragon (and you make good points) you have to ask how many belts he'd have won had there been four available at 135, 140 and 147 in his time instead of only two total. Or to say the other way, how many would Oscar or Canzales have if there were one belt for a limited number of divisions. No way to know of course, but one simply cannot equate being one of four strapholders in 17 divisions and being the undisputed man in one of eight as both being "champions."
Ramos really is a toughie. It doesn't bother me at all he was done at 24. So was Benitez and heck Sal Sanchez and Masao Obha and Stanley Ketchell and Pancho Villa were dead! The question is what did they accomplish, isn't it? Mando was so inconsistent and that makes him tough to grade. Me? I put great weight, maybe too much, on being a THE MAN champion. But I figure that's the point of the sport right? To be king of the hill?
One other thing, please understand that I am not trying to denigrate guys like Oscar or Canzales. It is a given that the first 15 or so here are at least excellent fighters and many of those deserve to be called great. We're just trying to do the impossible and rank them in that context, right?
