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BS.com is saying Kuntcz and company want the fight with JMM at 145. Yet another disadvantage for a pacman fighter.
We all saw how well JMM did with the extra weight agains Floyd....what in the FFFFFFFFFF are we to expect if JMM bloats in at 145 against pacman?
While 145 would be a disadvantage for JMM, you can't really expect Pac to come down to 135 or 140. Jmm also doesn't have to come in at 145 either, if he comes in at 140 i think he will be ok.
Pacquiao fans say that Pacquiao is so impressive for fighting bigger people at 147 pounds and claiming to the heavens that he's not a natural 147 pounder so it's why it impresses them. But when he is asked to move down to 140 it's too big a step for him to have to take. Either he is a Welterweight or he isn't. If he isn't a natural welterweight then he can make 140, if he is, then he can't, but you can't have it both ways by saying "He is so impressive for beating 147 pounders when that isn't his natural weight...but he isn't small enough for 140." Not big enough for 147 but not small enough for 140 is sort of meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by MMASUX
So JMM can come in with less power and everythig is hunk-a-dory? So Pac can also stop being a pussy and not make opponents fight at designated catch weights, I will shut up if Pac fights Martinez with the same logic you are using in this post. I kind of agree with you but it seems to not apply when Pac is fighting the bigger man...... Why is that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MMASUX
I agree Pac is not a legit WW, he's coming in around 145 for his fights, so making 140 shouldn't be a problem. I just don't see him agreeing to come in at anything lower than 140, not going to happen. 140 would be ideal, but it actually happening is another. JMM is one of my favorite fighters and i hope he gets the third fight with Pac, i'm hoping it's not at 147 cause then it would be another BS bloated/weight drained Pac opponent. I don't agree with it, i'm just calling it how i see it playing out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to BoxingSo JMM can come in with less power and everythig is hunk-a-dory? So Pac can also stop being a pussy and not make opponents fight at designated catch weights, I will shut up if Pac fights Martinez with the same logic you are using in this post. I kind of agree with you but it seems to not apply when Pac is fighting the bigger man...... Why is that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MMASUX
Shame on Pac and his team if true, haven't they tried to screw the public enough with recent matchups? Cheato who didn't deserve another big fight, old man Mosley and now a way bloated Marquez?
Fight him at 140 you graceless clowns. He goes up and you go down. Stop making a mockery of the sport. Anything to steal massive advantages over an opponent who knows how to outbox you but is older and has no track record above 135. :rolleyes:
I thought you were against catchweights? So shouldn't JMM challenge Pac at the full WW limit? I remember you being critical of Pac fighting Cotto at 145, saying Pac shouldn't be weight draining fighters. So shouldn't the same standard be held for JMM on not trying to weight drain Pac?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
140 is a legitimate weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI thought you were against catchweights? So shouldn't JMM challenge Pac at the full WW limit? I remember you being critical of Pac fighting Cotto at 145, saying Pac shouldn't be weight draining fighters. So shouldn't the same standard be held for JMM on not trying to weight drain Pac?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Manny is not a full WW as evidenced by his weigh ins and what his team says and Marquez is a much smaller LW. Are you telling me that you think Manny would be weight drained coming in at 140? Well, what about it also seeing Marquez fight an entire division outside his current division?
It isn't fair to have Manny come down to 135 and it isn't fair to expect Marquez to become a fully fledged WW.
140 makes complete sense.
Marquez is brave (or maybe even lazy?) if he accepts anything above 140.
JMM fought Floyd at 147 so there should be no problem if he fights Pac at 145.
145 is Pac's ideal weight and no sensible person would go back to 140 when his best weight is at 145 or at 147.
JMM's the challenger and Pac's the Champ.
Pac's the bigger draw and Pac has won his last fight against JMM (at least officially and regardless of how you felt about that fight).
So who do you think should have a say in this fight?
Of course by logic, it should be Pac.
If Marquez really wants to fight Pac, he should do it just like how Pac fought De La Hoya at 147 when he hasn't tested the division yet.:cool:
Oh right so when Cotto defended his belt at 145 for Pacquiao's sake, that was part of the same logic was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Personally I'd rather this fight not happen at all.
Could be...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel BoogustusOh right so when Cotto defended his belt at 145 for Pacquiao's sake, that was part of the same logic was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Personally I'd rather this fight not happen at all.
Pac's the bigger draw than Cotto.
Cotto wanted to fight Pac more.
Pac does not need Cotto that time. Besides, Cotto was the biggest risk Pac had during that time. And indeed Cotto proved to be too strong for Pac. Remember what happened to Pac after that fight?
imo, 144lbs should be the highest this fight should be made if its going to be at a catchweight. it's the same weight floyd-jmm agreed to when they fought although floyd didn't bother making weight. the lower the weight the more interest this fight is going to generate with the thinking that marquez will be more competitive. i would love to see this fight at 140lbs coz i remeber roach saying manny can still comfortably make the jr. welterweight limit. i don't know though if it's going to be for manny's welterweight belt then it would look ridiculous if will be at any weight lower than 142lbs.
bruce, though it's true manny has the stature to demand what weight they should fight at, it is to their best interest financial-wise and legacy-wise to give in to a catchweight, and the lower the better, just as long as it will not compromise manny's health. the more the fans would perceived this fight to be competitive the more interest it would generate and the better it will sell. and in the game of one-upmanship, it would put one over floyd again who couldn't even keep the catchweight against marquez.Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
funny how now it's not fair to Pacquiao if he must drop in weight to face a "smaller" guy, yet it's fine for every other fighter to do it for him (Cotto at 145, Margarito 150, asking Martinez to come down to 147 when he can't even make 154 anymore), oh but i forgot those cases are always "in the interest of fairness" or so that Pacquiao wont lose his "advantage", go down to at least 140 you fucking snob and give the guys that has given you hell twice (arguably beat you twice) a fair fight, he's more deserving than anybody else you've fought, as for bruceleroy's bullshit about Cotto wanting Manny more, that BS Manny asked Arum for Cotto right in MSG not even 5 minutes after Cotto beat Clottey :rolleyes:
No, all I'm saying is that be consistent. Didn't you say that if a fighter wants to challenge another fighter do it at their best and no catch weights right? Didn't you say that Pacquiao shouldn't have weight drain Oscar at 147 or any other fighter? And isn't 147 the full welterweight limit? So by your logic shouldn't JMM not drag Pac down and fight him at his optimum best with no catchweights? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles140 is a legitimate weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI thought you were against catchweights? So shouldn't JMM challenge Pac at the full WW limit? I remember you being critical of Pac fighting Cotto at 145, saying Pac shouldn't be weight draining fighters. So shouldn't the same standard be held for JMM on not trying to weight drain Pac?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Manny is not a full WW as evidenced by his weigh ins and what his team says and Marquez is a much smaller LW. Are you telling me that you think Manny would be weight drained coming in at 140? Well, what about it also seeing Marquez fight an entire division outside his current division?
It isn't fair to have Manny come down to 135 and it isn't fair to expect Marquez to become a fully fledged WW.
140 makes complete sense.
140 would be ideal but I guess Pac and his promotors make the calls , He's the king so no wonder he would be trying to pick up advantages . If JMM weighs in at 145, I just see him getting ko'd in the latter rounds
Manny Pacquiao fighting at a catchweight that suits him alot more than it suits his opponant!?!?!?!
Wow what a TOTAL shocker!
...marquez could fight pac 10 times. And he'll loose 11 of them. He could drink god's pee and it wouldn't help. Pac is ten times better now than he was when he beat him back then.
i think he got you miles. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo, all I'm saying is that be consistent. Didn't you say that if a fighter wants to challenge another fighter do it at their best and no catch weights right? Didn't you say that Pacquiao shouldn't have weight drain Oscar at 147 or any other fighter? And isn't 147 the full welterweight limit? So by your logic shouldn't JMM not drag Pac down and fight him at his optimum best with no catchweights? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles140 is a legitimate weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI thought you were against catchweights? So shouldn't JMM challenge Pac at the full WW limit? I remember you being critical of Pac fighting Cotto at 145, saying Pac shouldn't be weight draining fighters. So shouldn't the same standard be held for JMM on not trying to weight drain Pac?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Manny is not a full WW as evidenced by his weigh ins and what his team says and Marquez is a much smaller LW. Are you telling me that you think Manny would be weight drained coming in at 140? Well, what about it also seeing Marquez fight an entire division outside his current division?
It isn't fair to have Manny come down to 135 and it isn't fair to expect Marquez to become a fully fledged WW.
140 makes complete sense.
GB and I dont always agree on things but on this I completely agree with him. Miles is inconsistent I've said this in the past about him as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo, all I'm saying is that be consistent. Didn't you say that if a fighter wants to challenge another fighter do it at their best and no catch weights right? Didn't you say that Pacquiao shouldn't have weight drain Oscar at 147 or any other fighter? And isn't 147 the full welterweight limit? So by your logic shouldn't JMM not drag Pac down and fight him at his optimum best with no catchweights? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles140 is a legitimate weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI thought you were against catchweights? So shouldn't JMM challenge Pac at the full WW limit? I remember you being critical of Pac fighting Cotto at 145, saying Pac shouldn't be weight draining fighters. So shouldn't the same standard be held for JMM on not trying to weight drain Pac?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Manny is not a full WW as evidenced by his weigh ins and what his team says and Marquez is a much smaller LW. Are you telling me that you think Manny would be weight drained coming in at 140? Well, what about it also seeing Marquez fight an entire division outside his current division?
It isn't fair to have Manny come down to 135 and it isn't fair to expect Marquez to become a fully fledged WW.
140 makes complete sense.
Manny had been weighing in the 144 - 145 3/4 range in his last 4 fights (last fight with Mosley at 145). A number of posters here are asking that he go down 5 lbs to 140 to accomodate Marquez. Juan Manuel had been fighting ideally in the 134- 135 range and can just gain 1-2 lbs to be within the same division (Super Lightweight) to fight Manny.
Oscar dela Hoya went down 5 lbs at 145 to fight Manny (Oscar's previous weight was 150 in his fight with Forbes). Manny gained 7 1/2 lbs at 142 to fight Oscar. And quite a number of posters here did not give Pacquiao credit in that fight after he dominated the Golden Boy. They focused on what weight Oscar lost and did not pay attention to what Manny needed to gain.
This is quite ironic. Those same posters who did not give Pac credit are the same people who does not see him going down 5 lbs as weight draining him. And JMM barely needs to gain any weight at all.
This is the reason why I don't see any logic in a third Pacquiao-Marquez fight. They don't belong to the same weight division anymore. If Floyd Mayweather is not willing to fight him, then it's time for Pacquiao to hang up his gloves.
why is the weight limit a disadvantageQuote:
Originally Posted by MMASUX
Pac vs Marquez II- weights of both guys when they got in the ring-March 2008
145 141
Pac vs Margarito- November 2010
148
Marquez vs Katsidis-November 2010
145
where is the weight disadvantage. When they were having to make 130 for the weigh in, Pac came into the ring 4 pounds heavier than Marquez (145 to 141). Late last year in separate fights, Pac weighed 148 in the ring, 3 pounds more than the 145 Marquez weighed in the ring against katsidis.
Where is the weight disadvantage???
realize Pac weighs in at 144 or 145 for his fights and then only weighs about 148 in the ring.
Brandon Rios-who weighs in at 135, weighs more in the damn ring during his fight than Pac does!!!
! Tim Bradley, Devon Alexander, Lucas Matthyse, Amir Kahn, -the guys at 140, weigh more in the ring during their fights than Pac does!!!!
Sure and on the whole I agree with the consistency argument. Tbh I don't have any massive issues with Pac/DLH because Pac was being asked to jump up an awful lot, but in return Oscar was willing to compromise at 147. They were meeting at a legitimate weight class. My issue comes with there being only a division between them and they are having to settle with 151 instead of 154 or 145 instead of 147. Either go up a weight class or you come down, as for who does it, I don't care.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo, all I'm saying is that be consistent. Didn't you say that if a fighter wants to challenge another fighter do it at their best and no catch weights right? Didn't you say that Pacquiao shouldn't have weight drain Oscar at 147 or any other fighter? And isn't 147 the full welterweight limit? So by your logic shouldn't JMM not drag Pac down and fight him at his optimum best with no catchweights? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles140 is a legitimate weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI thought you were against catchweights? So shouldn't JMM challenge Pac at the full WW limit? I remember you being critical of Pac fighting Cotto at 145, saying Pac shouldn't be weight draining fighters. So shouldn't the same standard be held for JMM on not trying to weight drain Pac?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Manny is not a full WW as evidenced by his weigh ins and what his team says and Marquez is a much smaller LW. Are you telling me that you think Manny would be weight drained coming in at 140? Well, what about it also seeing Marquez fight an entire division outside his current division?
It isn't fair to have Manny come down to 135 and it isn't fair to expect Marquez to become a fully fledged WW.
140 makes complete sense.
When there is such a massive gulf as 135 to 147, it is practically impossible to make a fight fairly. It is only in such extreme cases as this that I think it only fair to settle on something like 140. These kinds of fights are quite the exception rather than the norm. I just don't think it fair to ask Marquez to go up to WW and likewise it would be unfair to make Manny go to 135. The only way to make a fight like this is 140, where both fighters are compromising. Or just don't bother with the fight.
140 is the only way to ensure nobody is getting all the advantages and it is of course a legitimate weight class, which I have a thing for respecting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales;9688[B
Manny is agreeing 145 :rolleyes:
Seriously you are all a bunch of whiny bastards. Maybe Manny should have one arm tied behind his back or automatically forfeit the fight if it goes to decision?
You all moan like fuck how he weight drained guys by forcing them to drop weight and yet when he himself agrees to cut the same amount of his opponents did for him the weight is not enough, and he's still the one with an advantage.
Personally considering Marquez lost their last fight I think getting a third fight at all is a bonus for him, and negotiating Manny to drop 2 pounds is even sweeter.
If Marquez was a man surely he would challenge the champion in his own weight class, isn't that the way the logic is supposed to go? Except when Pac is involved it seems, then it his him who must bow to every demand and take every risk.
Ah, so I see. So your problem is that catchweights should be at the division's maximum limit right? So let's say that Martinez and Pac agreed at a catchweight of 154, since they are 2 divisions apart and 154 is the maximum weight limit of Jr. MW. So would you have a problem with it? Or is Manny taking advantage of the situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesSure and on the whole I agree with the consistency argument. Tbh I don't have any massive issues with Pac/DLH because Pac was being asked to jump up an awful lot, but in return Oscar was willing to compromise at 147. They were meeting at a legitimate weight class. My issue comes with there being only a division between them and they are having to settle with 151 instead of 154 or 145 instead of 147. Either go up a weight class or you come down, as for who does it, I don't care.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo, all I'm saying is that be consistent. Didn't you say that if a fighter wants to challenge another fighter do it at their best and no catch weights right? Didn't you say that Pacquiao shouldn't have weight drain Oscar at 147 or any other fighter? And isn't 147 the full welterweight limit? So by your logic shouldn't JMM not drag Pac down and fight him at his optimum best with no catchweights? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles140 is a legitimate weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI thought you were against catchweights? So shouldn't JMM challenge Pac at the full WW limit? I remember you being critical of Pac fighting Cotto at 145, saying Pac shouldn't be weight draining fighters. So shouldn't the same standard be held for JMM on not trying to weight drain Pac?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Manny is not a full WW as evidenced by his weigh ins and what his team says and Marquez is a much smaller LW. Are you telling me that you think Manny would be weight drained coming in at 140? Well, what about it also seeing Marquez fight an entire division outside his current division?
It isn't fair to have Manny come down to 135 and it isn't fair to expect Marquez to become a fully fledged WW.
140 makes complete sense.
When there is such a massive gulf as 135 to 147, it is practically impossible to make a fight fairly. It is only in such extreme cases as this that I think it only fair to settle on something like 140. These kinds of fights are quite the exception rather than the norm. I just don't think it fair to ask Marquez to go up to WW and likewise it would be unfair to make Manny go to 135. The only way to make a fight like this is 140, where both fighters are compromising. Or just don't bother with the fight.
140 is the only way to ensure nobody is getting all the advantages and it is of course a legitimate weight class, which I have a thing for respecting.
Marquez: I've Accepted The Pacquiao Offer, 144-Pounds - Boxing News
is JMM just in it for the money? no disrespect for the guy but he isnt young either:-\
Floyd: Poochiao is fighting another 1 of my leftovers again. I already soften him up for Poochiao. Just take the test man, just take the test. We all know the Phillipines got the best drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
*Floyd then drives off with "In Da Club" playing in his Rolls Royce with 50 Cent riding shotgun*
No, that one seems okay to me. One has grown into a MW, the other one is seemingly a WW. If they can both make another legitimate weight to make the fight then it seems fair. I think Martinez might have to boil a little and Manny is clearly not going to weigh in at 154. It makes a more level playing field IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogAh, so I see. So your problem is that catchweights should be at the division's maximum limit right? So let's say that Martinez and Pac agreed at a catchweight of 154, since they are 2 divisions apart and 154 is the maximum weight limit of Jr. MW. So would you have a problem with it? Or is Manny taking advantage of the situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesSure and on the whole I agree with the consistency argument. Tbh I don't have any massive issues with Pac/DLH because Pac was being asked to jump up an awful lot, but in return Oscar was willing to compromise at 147. They were meeting at a legitimate weight class. My issue comes with there being only a division between them and they are having to settle with 151 instead of 154 or 145 instead of 147. Either go up a weight class or you come down, as for who does it, I don't care.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo, all I'm saying is that be consistent. Didn't you say that if a fighter wants to challenge another fighter do it at their best and no catch weights right? Didn't you say that Pacquiao shouldn't have weight drain Oscar at 147 or any other fighter? And isn't 147 the full welterweight limit? So by your logic shouldn't JMM not drag Pac down and fight him at his optimum best with no catchweights? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles140 is a legitimate weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI thought you were against catchweights? So shouldn't JMM challenge Pac at the full WW limit? I remember you being critical of Pac fighting Cotto at 145, saying Pac shouldn't be weight draining fighters. So shouldn't the same standard be held for JMM on not trying to weight drain Pac?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Manny is not a full WW as evidenced by his weigh ins and what his team says and Marquez is a much smaller LW. Are you telling me that you think Manny would be weight drained coming in at 140? Well, what about it also seeing Marquez fight an entire division outside his current division?
It isn't fair to have Manny come down to 135 and it isn't fair to expect Marquez to become a fully fledged WW.
140 makes complete sense.
When there is such a massive gulf as 135 to 147, it is practically impossible to make a fight fairly. It is only in such extreme cases as this that I think it only fair to settle on something like 140. These kinds of fights are quite the exception rather than the norm. I just don't think it fair to ask Marquez to go up to WW and likewise it would be unfair to make Manny go to 135. The only way to make a fight like this is 140, where both fighters are compromising. Or just don't bother with the fight.
140 is the only way to ensure nobody is getting all the advantages and it is of course a legitimate weight class, which I have a thing for respecting.
I gues I regard Martinez/Manny at 154 as fair game. If it were to be something like 152, then I would see it as Manny taking the piss, but 154. I'm cool.
145? If true then I am very upset. The ball is totally in Manny's favour and there is no hint of compromise as that is weight he weighs in at anyway. I am appalled actually.
No it's 144. He's sacrificing 1 pound from his last fight just like Cotto sacrificed 1 pound from his last fight. Let's say if JMM pulls off the upset, would you give JMM credit or would you discredit that win? Just asking out of curiosity.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Haha, 1 pound! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo it's 144. He's sacrificing 1 pound from his last fight just like Cotto sacrificed 1 pound from his last fight. Let's say if JMM pulls off the upset, would you give JMM credit or would you discredit that win? Just asking out of curiosity.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
I would be totally amazed if he were to win.
Many of us thought Oscar would beat Pac because he was just too big. But Oscar actually went down an entire division to make the fight happen and Pac as brave as he was accepted the challenge and went up two.
Here the big difference is that Manny has grown into the weight, but is only willing to sacrifice a few hundred grammes. Marquez meanwhile is manfully upping two entire divisions.
So in terms of credit I would firstly like to say that Manny has diminished any credit if he gets the win by being such a fascist. Oscar was a complete gentleman in coming down, but Pac has obviously allowed his politics to influence his boxing and he now likes to dictate. If Marquez can somehow overcome this massive weight hurdle then he deserves full credit because he jumped through all the hoops to get to his prize.
144 is horrible really.
First off, Oscar didn't move down 1 entire division. He came down from 3 pounds from the Forbes fight which ironically was at a catchweight of 150, while he made a guy that had basically fought his entire career below 130 to jump up another 2 weight classes after moving up from 1 already to fight him. Yeah that's definitely gentlemanly of Oscar.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by milesHaha, 1 pound! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo it's 144. He's sacrificing 1 pound from his last fight just like Cotto sacrificed 1 pound from his last fight. Let's say if JMM pulls off the upset, would you give JMM credit or would you discredit that win? Just asking out of curiosity.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
I would be totally amazed if he were to win.
Many of us thought Oscar would beat Pac because he was just too big. But Oscar actually went down an entire division to make the fight happen and Pac as brave as he was accepted the challenge and went up two.
Here the big difference is that Manny has grown into the weight, but is only willing to sacrifice a few hundred grammes. Marquez meanwhile is manfully upping two entire divisions.
So in terms of credit I would firstly like to say that Manny has diminished any credit if he gets the win by being such a fascist. Oscar was a complete gentleman in coming down, but Pac has obviously allowed his politics to influence his boxing and he now likes to dictate. If Marquez can somehow overcome this massive weight hurdle then he deserves full credit because he jumped through all the hoops to get to his prize.
144 is horrible really.
I just find it funny that people say pacquiao does not deserve any credit for beating Cotto even though Cotto came in 1 pound less than his previous fight. Whereas JMM negotiated Pac to come in 1 pound lighter than his previous fight and if he does beat Pac, he deserves all the credit?
Like I said, let's have some consistency shall we?;)
Marquez challenged pacman for the welter weight title.
Welter limit is 147.
Pac offers 144lb weight limit.
Its not pacman's fault if Marquez is 135lb and has to put up some weight to fight pacman. Hell, he did the same for Mayweather, and Floyd even spits into the contracted limit of 145lbs.
I just dont see pacman going down to 140lbs just give Marquez a 3rd try on him.
Its very hard to be like pacman these days. if you become too great people will find ways to discredit you. Its just sad.
Oscar did move down a division. 150 is within the JMW limits and WW is the next step down. Sure, the Forbes fight 3 pounds above that, but Oscar had been at JMW for many years prior and coming back down to WW proper was clearly a BIG sacrifice. He made that compromise and got his Manny fight. Manny compromised by jumping a long way too.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogFirst off, Oscar didn't move down 1 entire division. He came down from 3 pounds from the Forbes fight which ironically was at a catchweight of 150, while he made a guy that had basically fought his entire career below 130 to jump up another 2 weight classes after moving up from 1 already to fight him. Yeah that's definitely gentlemanly of Oscar.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by milesHaha, 1 pound! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo it's 144. He's sacrificing 1 pound from his last fight just like Cotto sacrificed 1 pound from his last fight. Let's say if JMM pulls off the upset, would you give JMM credit or would you discredit that win? Just asking out of curiosity.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
I would be totally amazed if he were to win.
Many of us thought Oscar would beat Pac because he was just too big. But Oscar actually went down an entire division to make the fight happen and Pac as brave as he was accepted the challenge and went up two.
Here the big difference is that Manny has grown into the weight, but is only willing to sacrifice a few hundred grammes. Marquez meanwhile is manfully upping two entire divisions.
So in terms of credit I would firstly like to say that Manny has diminished any credit if he gets the win by being such a fascist. Oscar was a complete gentleman in coming down, but Pac has obviously allowed his politics to influence his boxing and he now likes to dictate. If Marquez can somehow overcome this massive weight hurdle then he deserves full credit because he jumped through all the hoops to get to his prize.
144 is horrible really.
I just find it funny that people say pacquiao does not deserve any credit for beating Cotto even though Cotto came in 1 pound less than his previous fight. Whereas JMM negotiated Pac to come in 1 pound lighter than his previous fight and if he does beat Pac, he deserves all the credit?
Like I said, let's have some consistency shall we?;)
The Oscar fight proved that Manny could fight at the 147 limit and that is why critics say that he should have done the same to face Cotto.
I have already explained why Manny loses the chance to gain massive credit if he beats Marquez at 144. He has made no sacrifice to give the fans a more equal playing field. Even Oscar, who we all criticised gave up something, but Manny gives up nothing. Meanwhile Marquez is being asked to jump all the hurdles.
Of course Marquez deserves the credit if he wins and of course Manny should be criticised right now for making the fight at a 144 CW. You don't expect a smaller guy to jump all the hurdles while you jump through none. That isn't credit worthy. Marquez has NO track record at WW. Manny prior to Cotto did, whence criticism of the CW.
The argument is pretty consistent.
Far to much is made out of this supposed weight disparity. Come fight time they are going to be about the same size and again Marquez does not have to weigh in at 144. Go 141. Damn when he fought Katsidis he was I believe 148 at fight time. This size thing has been blown way out of proportion.Quote:
Originally Posted by carpetrepairhouston
Actually no, the argument isn't consistent. You can't pick and choose who to give credit to on the catchweights to some and then discredit it for others.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesOscar did move down a division. 150 is within the JMW limits and WW is the next step down. Sure, the Forbes fight 3 pounds above that, but Oscar had been at JMW for many years prior and coming back down to WW proper was clearly a BIG sacrifice. He made that compromise and got his Manny fight. Manny compromised by jumping a long way too.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogFirst off, Oscar didn't move down 1 entire division. He came down from 3 pounds from the Forbes fight which ironically was at a catchweight of 150, while he made a guy that had basically fought his entire career below 130 to jump up another 2 weight classes after moving up from 1 already to fight him. Yeah that's definitely gentlemanly of Oscar.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by milesHaha, 1 pound! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo it's 144. He's sacrificing 1 pound from his last fight just like Cotto sacrificed 1 pound from his last fight. Let's say if JMM pulls off the upset, would you give JMM credit or would you discredit that win? Just asking out of curiosity.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
I would be totally amazed if he were to win.
Many of us thought Oscar would beat Pac because he was just too big. But Oscar actually went down an entire division to make the fight happen and Pac as brave as he was accepted the challenge and went up two.
Here the big difference is that Manny has grown into the weight, but is only willing to sacrifice a few hundred grammes. Marquez meanwhile is manfully upping two entire divisions.
So in terms of credit I would firstly like to say that Manny has diminished any credit if he gets the win by being such a fascist. Oscar was a complete gentleman in coming down, but Pac has obviously allowed his politics to influence his boxing and he now likes to dictate. If Marquez can somehow overcome this massive weight hurdle then he deserves full credit because he jumped through all the hoops to get to his prize.
144 is horrible really.
I just find it funny that people say pacquiao does not deserve any credit for beating Cotto even though Cotto came in 1 pound less than his previous fight. Whereas JMM negotiated Pac to come in 1 pound lighter than his previous fight and if he does beat Pac, he deserves all the credit?
Like I said, let's have some consistency shall we?;)
The Oscar fight proved that Manny could fight at the 147 limit and that is why critics say that he should have done the same to face Cotto.
I have already explained why Manny loses the chance to gain massive credit if he beats Marquez at 144. He has made no sacrifice to give the fans a more equal playing field. Even Oscar, who we all criticised gave up something, but Manny gives up nothing. Meanwhile Marquez is being asked to jump all the hurdles.
Of course Marquez deserves the credit if he wins and of course Manny should be criticised right now for making the fight at a 144 CW. You don't expect a smaller guy to jump all the hurdles while you jump through none. That isn't credit worthy. Marquez has NO track record at WW. Manny prior to Cotto did, whence criticism of the CW.
The argument is pretty consistent.
Since I've been here the argument is this:
It was wrong for Pac to fight Oscar at 147. Whereas it was right for Oscar to fight 40 year old Hopkins at 156 for his MW title.
It was wrong for Pac to fight and get credit for Cotto at 145 (1 pound less than his last fight). Whereas it will be right for JMM to fight Pac at 144 (1 pound less than his last fight) and deserves all the credit if he wins.
You don't see the hypocrisy in this? ;)
difference in DLH Vs. B-Hop is that Hopkins would already come in around that weight to begin with, he would never weigh 160 at a weigh in because he would walk around that weight when he didn't even have a fight scheduled, also that fight was how long ago and Hopkins should arguably be the Light-heavyweight champion of the world and oldest champion if he wouldn't have gotten robbed last time out, as for DLH had not fought at 147 for about 7 yrs and was pretty much shot to shitQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogActually no, the argument isn't consistent. You can't pick and choose who to give credit to on the catchweights to some and then discredit it for others.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesOscar did move down a division. 150 is within the JMW limits and WW is the next step down. Sure, the Forbes fight 3 pounds above that, but Oscar had been at JMW for many years prior and coming back down to WW proper was clearly a BIG sacrifice. He made that compromise and got his Manny fight. Manny compromised by jumping a long way too.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogFirst off, Oscar didn't move down 1 entire division. He came down from 3 pounds from the Forbes fight which ironically was at a catchweight of 150, while he made a guy that had basically fought his entire career below 130 to jump up another 2 weight classes after moving up from 1 already to fight him. Yeah that's definitely gentlemanly of Oscar.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by milesHaha, 1 pound! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo it's 144. He's sacrificing 1 pound from his last fight just like Cotto sacrificed 1 pound from his last fight. Let's say if JMM pulls off the upset, would you give JMM credit or would you discredit that win? Just asking out of curiosity.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
I would be totally amazed if he were to win.
Many of us thought Oscar would beat Pac because he was just too big. But Oscar actually went down an entire division to make the fight happen and Pac as brave as he was accepted the challenge and went up two.
Here the big difference is that Manny has grown into the weight, but is only willing to sacrifice a few hundred grammes. Marquez meanwhile is manfully upping two entire divisions.
So in terms of credit I would firstly like to say that Manny has diminished any credit if he gets the win by being such a fascist. Oscar was a complete gentleman in coming down, but Pac has obviously allowed his politics to influence his boxing and he now likes to dictate. If Marquez can somehow overcome this massive weight hurdle then he deserves full credit because he jumped through all the hoops to get to his prize.
144 is horrible really.
I just find it funny that people say pacquiao does not deserve any credit for beating Cotto even though Cotto came in 1 pound less than his previous fight. Whereas JMM negotiated Pac to come in 1 pound lighter than his previous fight and if he does beat Pac, he deserves all the credit?
Like I said, let's have some consistency shall we?;)
The Oscar fight proved that Manny could fight at the 147 limit and that is why critics say that he should have done the same to face Cotto.
I have already explained why Manny loses the chance to gain massive credit if he beats Marquez at 144. He has made no sacrifice to give the fans a more equal playing field. Even Oscar, who we all criticised gave up something, but Manny gives up nothing. Meanwhile Marquez is being asked to jump all the hurdles.
Of course Marquez deserves the credit if he wins and of course Manny should be criticised right now for making the fight at a 144 CW. You don't expect a smaller guy to jump all the hurdles while you jump through none. That isn't credit worthy. Marquez has NO track record at WW. Manny prior to Cotto did, whence criticism of the CW.
The argument is pretty consistent.
Since I've been here the argument is this:
It was wrong for Pac to fight Oscar at 147. Whereas it was right for Oscar to fight 40 year old Hopkins at 156 for his MW title.
It was wrong for Pac to fight and get credit for Cotto at 145 (1 pound less than his last fight). Whereas it will be right for JMM to fight Pac at 144 (1 pound less than his last fight) and deserves all the credit if he wins.
You don't see the hypocrisy in this? ;)
I do :)Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogActually no, the argument isn't consistent. You can't pick and choose who to give credit to on the catchweights to some and then discredit it for others.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesOscar did move down a division. 150 is within the JMW limits and WW is the next step down. Sure, the Forbes fight 3 pounds above that, but Oscar had been at JMW for many years prior and coming back down to WW proper was clearly a BIG sacrifice. He made that compromise and got his Manny fight. Manny compromised by jumping a long way too.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogFirst off, Oscar didn't move down 1 entire division. He came down from 3 pounds from the Forbes fight which ironically was at a catchweight of 150, while he made a guy that had basically fought his entire career below 130 to jump up another 2 weight classes after moving up from 1 already to fight him. Yeah that's definitely gentlemanly of Oscar.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by milesHaha, 1 pound! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo it's 144. He's sacrificing 1 pound from his last fight just like Cotto sacrificed 1 pound from his last fight. Let's say if JMM pulls off the upset, would you give JMM credit or would you discredit that win? Just asking out of curiosity.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
I would be totally amazed if he were to win.
Many of us thought Oscar would beat Pac because he was just too big. But Oscar actually went down an entire division to make the fight happen and Pac as brave as he was accepted the challenge and went up two.
Here the big difference is that Manny has grown into the weight, but is only willing to sacrifice a few hundred grammes. Marquez meanwhile is manfully upping two entire divisions.
So in terms of credit I would firstly like to say that Manny has diminished any credit if he gets the win by being such a fascist. Oscar was a complete gentleman in coming down, but Pac has obviously allowed his politics to influence his boxing and he now likes to dictate. If Marquez can somehow overcome this massive weight hurdle then he deserves full credit because he jumped through all the hoops to get to his prize.
144 is horrible really.
I just find it funny that people say pacquiao does not deserve any credit for beating Cotto even though Cotto came in 1 pound less than his previous fight. Whereas JMM negotiated Pac to come in 1 pound lighter than his previous fight and if he does beat Pac, he deserves all the credit?
Like I said, let's have some consistency shall we?;)
The Oscar fight proved that Manny could fight at the 147 limit and that is why critics say that he should have done the same to face Cotto.
I have already explained why Manny loses the chance to gain massive credit if he beats Marquez at 144. He has made no sacrifice to give the fans a more equal playing field. Even Oscar, who we all criticised gave up something, but Manny gives up nothing. Meanwhile Marquez is being asked to jump all the hurdles.
Of course Marquez deserves the credit if he wins and of course Manny should be criticised right now for making the fight at a 144 CW. You don't expect a smaller guy to jump all the hurdles while you jump through none. That isn't credit worthy. Marquez has NO track record at WW. Manny prior to Cotto did, whence criticism of the CW.
The argument is pretty consistent.
Since I've been here the argument is this:
It was wrong for Pac to fight Oscar at 147. Whereas it was right for Oscar to fight 40 year old Hopkins at 156 for his MW title.
It was wrong for Pac to fight and get credit for Cotto at 145 (1 pound less than his last fight). Whereas it will be right for JMM to fight Pac at 144 (1 pound less than his last fight) and deserves all the credit if he wins.
You don't see the hypocrisy in this? ;)
Here we go.
Pac-JMM 3 fight hype already. I love it! ;D