Printable View
I think most of us are living in a great generation from boxing, we have witnessed guys like roy jones, mike tyson, bernard hopkins, manny, floyd, and etc...my question is, who do you guys think is the topdog of the last 20 years..
Also to spare another thread, where does roy jones stand in all time rankings, at lhw and overall, do we rate him on skill? or opposition?
Overall my top dogs would be
Erik Morales
Lennox Lewis
Floyd Mayweather
Mike Tyson
Roy Jones
Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.
But it is still my favorite sport.
In terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has producedQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Mosley, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.
I't comparitive of course. Take 1965-1980 as a comparison. Ali, Tiger, Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles Carlos Ortiz, Laguna, Locche, Elorde, Saldivar, Jofre, Harada, Kingpetch, Frazier, Foreman, Duran, Buchanan, Hearns, Leonard, Hagler, Benitez, Olivares, Zarate, Bob Foster, Monzon, Kid Pambele, Galindez, Palomino, Little Red Lopez, Arguello, The Hawk, Miguel Canto, Larry Holmes, Bobby Chacon, Salvador Sanchez, Eusabio Pedroza, Bazooke Gomez, Jeff Chandler, Yoko Gushiken, Pipino Cuevas (and I'm beginning to bore even me).Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HIn terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has producedQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.
Like I said, boxing is still my favorite sport, but I don't think anyone wants to make the argument this is anything but a down period. The only question is how badly down.
None of Manny, Floyd or Sweet Pea have an argument for the top ten in my view. More like top 30 or so, top 50 or so and top 20 or so respectively. Certainly Ali, Duran and Leonard belong ahead of all three and Ali and Duran are probably both top tenners.
One thing I have come to understand is just how badly the lack of depth has screwed up the port. 25 years ago a guy like Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon before him didn't have to move divisions to find worthy challengers. The 160's were chock full of competent, talented guys that fight fans could see were threats. Over 12 years those two defended what? 25-30 times? The division just kept reloading. Today look at what Manny has had to do to fight twice a year against perceived solid challenegers. And in some corners he is being pilloried even for this! And its not like manny is the only guy who has to move to find fights. I mean what is Sergio Martinez to do?
I'm not sure there is anything to do about it. Just an observation.
I would add Juan Manuel Marquez to your list.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HIn terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has producedQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Mosley, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.
I used to feel that way, but I like you used to very much favour older fighters. I have changed that view to a degree in the past 5-10 years, I think we see the past with rose tinted spectacles sometimes. Whether or not the 3 I mentioned belong in the top 10 or not, they certainly all 'have an argument' imo at least. As does RJJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI't comparitive of course. Take 1965-1980 as a comparison. Ali, Tiger, Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles Carlos Ortiz, Laguna, Locche, Elorde, Saldivar, Jofre, Harada, Kingpetch, Frazier, Foreman, Duran, Buchanan, Hearns, Leonard, Hagler, Benitez, Olivares, Zarate, Bob Foster, Monzon, Kid Pambele, Galindez, Palomino, Little Red Lopez, Arguello, The Hawk, Miguel Canto, Larry Holmes, Bobby Chacon, Salvador Sanchez, Eusabio Pedroza, Bazooke Gomez, Jeff Chandler, Yoko Gushiken, Pipino Cuevas (and I'm beginning to bore even me).Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HIn terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has producedQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.
Like I said, boxing is still my favorite sport, but I don't think anyone wants to make the argument this is anything but a down period. The only question is how badly down.
None of Manny, Floyd or Sweet Pea have an argument for the top ten in my view. More like top 30 or so, top 50 or so and top 20 or so respectively. Certainly Ali, Duran and Leonard belong ahead of all three and Ali and Duran are probably both top tenners.
One thing I have come to understand is just how badly the lack of depth has screwed up the port. 25 years ago a guy like Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon before him didn't have to move divisions to find worthy challengers. The 160's were chock full of competent, talented guys that fight fans could see were threats. Over 12 years those two defended what? 25-30 times? The division just kept reloading. Today look at what Manny has had to do to fight twice a year against perceived solid challenegers. And in some corners he is being pilloried even for this! And its not like manny is the only guy who has to move to find fights. I mean what is Sergio Martinez to do?
I'm not sure there is anything to do about it. Just an observation.
If fights were 12 rounds in 1981, I wonder how different Hearns and Leonards career paths would have been (if at all) :-\
Yup. No way to know of course. I think Arguello would have been hurt by a 12 round distance as well whereas guys like Benitez would have been helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HI used to feel that way, but I like you used to very much favour older fighters. I have changed that view to a degree in the past 5-10 years, I think we see the past with rose tinted spectacles sometimes. Whether or not the 3 I mentioned belong in the top 10 or not, they certainly all 'have an argument' imo at least. As does RJJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI't comparitive of course. Take 1965-1980 as a comparison. Ali, Tiger, Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles Carlos Ortiz, Laguna, Locche, Elorde, Saldivar, Jofre, Harada, Kingpetch, Frazier, Foreman, Duran, Buchanan, Hearns, Leonard, Hagler, Benitez, Olivares, Zarate, Bob Foster, Monzon, Kid Pambele, Galindez, Palomino, Little Red Lopez, Arguello, The Hawk, Miguel Canto, Larry Holmes, Bobby Chacon, Salvador Sanchez, Eusabio Pedroza, Bazooke Gomez, Jeff Chandler, Yoko Gushiken, Pipino Cuevas (and I'm beginning to bore even me).Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HIn terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has producedQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.
Like I said, boxing is still my favorite sport, but I don't think anyone wants to make the argument this is anything but a down period. The only question is how badly down.
None of Manny, Floyd or Sweet Pea have an argument for the top ten in my view. More like top 30 or so, top 50 or so and top 20 or so respectively. Certainly Ali, Duran and Leonard belong ahead of all three and Ali and Duran are probably both top tenners.
One thing I have come to understand is just how badly the lack of depth has screwed up the port. 25 years ago a guy like Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon before him didn't have to move divisions to find worthy challengers. The 160's were chock full of competent, talented guys that fight fans could see were threats. Over 12 years those two defended what? 25-30 times? The division just kept reloading. Today look at what Manny has had to do to fight twice a year against perceived solid challenegers. And in some corners he is being pilloried even for this! And its not like manny is the only guy who has to move to find fights. I mean what is Sergio Martinez to do?
I'm not sure there is anything to do about it. Just an observation.
If fights were 12 rounds in 1981, I wonder how different Hearns and Leonards career paths would have been (if at all) :-\
I think folks today tend to be prisoners of the moment with regards to boxing. They look at other sports and think (in most cases rightly) that they are seeing those sports at their highest level. So they bring the same starting point to boxing. But if one takes a step back one realizes that SIZE is a huge reason for the improvement in sports as are improved training methods, more resources being devoted to them and more participants playing more often. If this were true of boxing we'd be in a golden age of heavyweights, right?
But of course none of that applies to boxing. Why? We have fewer fighters (one reason being guys can now make money in a lot more sports than they could 50 years ago), fewer facilities, fewer fights, we've been training fighters for 300 years and because boxing is weight restricted. ALL the measureables that get one comfortable that other sports are at their best show boxing cannot be anywhere close.
Then of course the eye test. Today there is less diversity of styles and fewer craftsman. Why? Dearth of teachers. Go watch a series of fights from the 1930's-1970's and then watch guys from today. With only a handful of exceptions, it is a noticeably lesser sport.
But still the best one there is.
Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's
I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
middleweight champ to heavyweight champ albeit facing a second rate heavyweight warrants great respect imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Except he was never middleweight champ in any sense that means anything (ala Hagler, Monzon, Greb, Robinson, Pavlik). He won a vacant strap against an unranked BHOP. Now don't get me wrong, Jones was a great, great fighter. But Lopez fought every conceivable challenger and had 25 defenses of the lineal title. I mean you literally cannot name a guy Lopez should have fought...or at least I can't. He did it the way I think it oughtta be done. There's 6-7 names Jones really could have improved his resume with. My take anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlikmiddleweight champ to heavyweight champ albeit facing a second rate heavyweight warrants great respect imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
Who on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
If had to pick the best fighter of the past 20 years I have to say with out a doubt it is Lennox Lewis. I think he is a top ten heavyweight in upper part of the list. I don't think he ever really lost in his prime. Another big thing to me is also when you are the top heavy it means you can beat anyone. I am not taking about pound for pound i talking about literally you can beat everyone who is boxing at that time in the ring.
Going back to RJJ, I completely agree with Marble about his resume, I have always been critical of it, but it's one of those situations where we just don't know how good he would've been against the guys mentioned. My opinion is that he would've beaten anybody that he fought at that time, I really do think he was that good.
I think you're contradicting yourself here with regards to an earlier claim you've made.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
You believe there has been a noticeable decline in the standard of boxing over the years, right? You believe this is due to dwindling numbers taking up the sport.
Basically - the more fighters the greater strength in depth.
Lopez pomp was fought at straw/minimum. There are currently just 296 registered professionals operating in this weight class.
Jones pomp was fought at middle/supermiddle/lightheavy. Across those three divisions there are currently 2812 pro fighters.
This indicates that Jones fought in a far more competitive pool purely down to his size. It is possible that fighters considered "average" in a pool of 3000 could be seen as "great" amongst 300, right? And the bigger the pool the more likelihood of fighters NOT meeting.
Therefore the lack of competition Lopez had compared to a bigger fighter like Jones should surely be considered when comparing them ;)
i would disagree, the matchups haven't been great, but the fighters we have witnessed have been equivalent to sugar robinson daysQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
I ABSOLUTELY concede the point that at the end of the Bell Curve of Human Size (heavyweight and flyweight in original temrs) the competition level over time is AT BEST inconsistent compared to the other divisions for EXACTLY the reasons you noted. It is why I don't make the claim Finito is a top 25 All-Timer despite being only the second fighter in history with 25 defenses of a lineal crown (Joe Louis being the other). But Lopez fought EVERYBODY. Jones didn't. I'd NEVER argue Lopez's run as the equal of say Abe Attel's 20 defenses at featherweight for example, for the reasons you stated. Had Jones fought everyone, instead of having 6-7 holes as I identified, then there could be no comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI think you're contradicting yourself here with regards to an earlier claim you've made.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
You believe there has been a noticeable decline in the standard of boxing over the years, right? You believe this is due to dwindling numbers taking up the sport.
Basically - the more fighters the greater strength in depth.
Lopez pomp was fought at straw/minimum. There are currently just 296 registered professionals operating in this weight class.
Jones pomp was fought at middle/supermiddle/lightheavy. Across those three divisions there are currently 2812 pro fighters.
This indicates that Jones fought in a far more competitive pool purely down to his size. It is possible that fighters considered "average" in a pool of 3000 could be seen as "great" amongst 300, right? And the bigger the pool the more likelihood of fighters NOT meeting.
Therefore the lack of competition Lopez had compared to a bigger fighter like Jones should surely be considered when comparing them ;)
But that's not what happened. Great post by the way.
There can be no question that Lopez's defeat of Alvarez is more impressive than RJJ's win over BHOP. Alvarewz weighed in as a FLYWEIGHT and was at his absolute peak and an old Lopez still got him. BHOP at that time was an unranked comer. The win over Toney is, of course, the best on either resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
It doesn't matter a lick whose "fault" it was. The fact is one either fights the fights or they don't. This ain't the Olympics, one doesn't get credit for perceived walkovers.
There are perhaps ten guys in the last 20 years one can say that about. In Robinson's 20 years we had Robinson, Burley, Louis, Conn, Yarosz, Overlin, Zale, Bivins, Armstrong, Montgomery, Chalky, Moore, Marshall, Williams, LaMotta, Pep, Ike Williams, Charles, Turpin, Gavilan, Saddler, Manuel Ortiz, Basilio, Fulmer, Pascual Perez, Elorde, Liston, Harold Johnson, Giardello, Luis Rodriguez, Emile Griffith, Carlos Ortiz, Duilio Loi, Sugbar Ramos, Jofre, Dick Tiger, Pastrano and I can go on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4lifei would disagree, the matchups haven't been great, but the fighters we have witnessed have been equivalent to sugar robinson daysQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
def see your pointQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThere are perhaps ten guys in the last 20 years one can say that about. In Robinson's 20 years we had Robinson, Burley, Louis, Conn, Yarosz, Overlin, Zale, Bivins, Armstrong, Montgomery, Chalky, Moore, Marshall, Williams, LaMotta, Pep, Ike Williams, Charles, Turpin, Gavilan, Saddler, Manuel Ortiz, Basilio, Fulmer, Pascual Perez, Elorde, Liston, Harold Johnson, Giardello, Luis Rodriguez, Emile Griffith, Carlos Ortiz, Duilio Loi, Sugbar Ramos, Jofre, Dick Tiger, Pastrano and I can go on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4lifei would disagree, the matchups haven't been great, but the fighters we have witnessed have been equivalent to sugar robinson daysQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
That is false that Hopkins was not ranked when he met Roy Jones. Hopkins was ranked by Ring Magazine annual rankings in 1992 at no. 9 (a source that you tend to quote in a lot of your posts or debates) in their April 1993 issue. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1992 - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia. Roy Jones and Hopkins fought in May of 1993. So indeed Hopkins was ranked as a top 10 MW when he fought Jones, and a future atg. Having a young Hopkins on the resume and winning the fight handily is very impressive for a not yet to be prime Roy Jones in his first title fight. In terms of boxing accomplishments and abilities Hopkins is leagues above Alvarez. Hopkins is an all time great fighter and easily cracks the top 50 fighters in history. Not to mentioned Jones Jr. had a much wider pool of fighters to contend with as Fenster posted compared to Lopez. So if you have a source that says Hopkins was an unranked comer as you've stated when he met Jones Jr. I would like to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThere can be no question that Lopez's defeat of Alvarez is more impressive than RJJ's win over BHOP. Alvarewz weighed in as a FLYWEIGHT and was at his absolute peak and an old Lopez still got him. BHOP at that time was an unranked comer. The win over Toney is, of course, the best on either resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
It doesn't matter a lick whose "fault" it was. The fact is one either fights the fights or they don't. This ain't the Olympics, one doesn't get credit for perceived walkovers.
Sorry, I don't see anyone on Lopez's resume that is the equivalent of a Hopkins or James Toney. Alvarez a better win than Hopkins? Not too many people will agree with you on that.;)
You're right on BHOP being ranked. Thank you for the correction!Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogThat is false that Hopkins was not ranked when he met Roy Jones. Hopkins was ranked by Ring Magazine annual rankings in 1992 at no. 9 (a source that you tend to quote in a lot of your posts or debates) in their April 1993 issue. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1992 - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia. Roy Jones and Hopkins fought in May of 1993. So indeed Hopkins was ranked as a top 10 MW when he fought Jones, and a future atg. Having a young Hopkins on the resume and winning the fight handily is very impressive for a not yet to be prime Roy Jones in his first title fight. In terms of boxing accomplishments and abilities Hopkins is leagues above Alvarez. Hopkins is an all time great fighter and easily cracks the top 50 fighters in history. Not to mentioned Jones Jr. had a much wider pool of fighters to contend with as Fenster posted compared to Lopez. So if you have a source that says Hopkins was an unranked comer as you've stated when he met Jones Jr. I would like to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThere can be no question that Lopez's defeat of Alvarez is more impressive than RJJ's win over BHOP. Alvarewz weighed in as a FLYWEIGHT and was at his absolute peak and an old Lopez still got him. BHOP at that time was an unranked comer. The win over Toney is, of course, the best on either resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
It doesn't matter a lick whose "fault" it was. The fact is one either fights the fights or they don't. This ain't the Olympics, one doesn't get credit for perceived walkovers.
Sorry, I don't see anyone on Lopez's resume that is the equivalent of a Hopkins or James Toney. Alvarez a better win than Hopkins? Not too many people will agree with you on that.;)
Let me try (however vainly) to make the case for Alvareza and see if i can convince ANYBODY :)
At the time BHOP was the #9 ranked middle and a comer, but not remotely near his peak, was he?
Bufalo was the #1 ranked contender and in his prior fights had beaten unbeaten strapholder and top five Porpaion twice (in Thailand), Kermin Guardia, whose only loss at this point was a decision to Finito, with a KO3 and unbeaten Japanese champ Shiohama (in Japan). BHOP to that point had done nothing like that. Alvarez went on to win a strap at 108 have three defenses, two of them against #2 ranked challenger Beibis Mendoza.
Now does that make him BHOP's equal overall? Not even close. But WHEN the two met? I think Alvarez was the more accomplished guy.
When I think about Sweet Pea, Lopez and RJJ I think about one guy who belongs in the top 25 somewhere (Sweet Pea) and two guys who belong in or a round the top fifty.
Who's with me? Anyone? Bueller?
may i just say, not even a peak hopkins would have beat that version of roy jones, and i think the way hopkins fought at the time would be the most ideal way to fight that version of jones, the hopkins that we saw later, the "peak" would actually do worseQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou're right on BHOP being ranked. Thank you for the correction!Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogThat is false that Hopkins was not ranked when he met Roy Jones. Hopkins was ranked by Ring Magazine annual rankings in 1992 at no. 9 (a source that you tend to quote in a lot of your posts or debates) in their April 1993 issue. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1992 - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia. Roy Jones and Hopkins fought in May of 1993. So indeed Hopkins was ranked as a top 10 MW when he fought Jones, and a future atg. Having a young Hopkins on the resume and winning the fight handily is very impressive for a not yet to be prime Roy Jones in his first title fight. In terms of boxing accomplishments and abilities Hopkins is leagues above Alvarez. Hopkins is an all time great fighter and easily cracks the top 50 fighters in history. Not to mentioned Jones Jr. had a much wider pool of fighters to contend with as Fenster posted compared to Lopez. So if you have a source that says Hopkins was an unranked comer as you've stated when he met Jones Jr. I would like to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThere can be no question that Lopez's defeat of Alvarez is more impressive than RJJ's win over BHOP. Alvarewz weighed in as a FLYWEIGHT and was at his absolute peak and an old Lopez still got him. BHOP at that time was an unranked comer. The win over Toney is, of course, the best on either resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
It doesn't matter a lick whose "fault" it was. The fact is one either fights the fights or they don't. This ain't the Olympics, one doesn't get credit for perceived walkovers.
Sorry, I don't see anyone on Lopez's resume that is the equivalent of a Hopkins or James Toney. Alvarez a better win than Hopkins? Not too many people will agree with you on that.;)
Let me try (however vainly) to make the case for Alvareza and see if i can convince ANYBODY :)
At the time BHOP was the #9 ranked middle and a comer, but not remotely near his peak, was he?
Bufalo was the #1 ranked contender and in his prior fights had beaten unbeaten strapholder and top five Porpaion twice (in Thailand), Kermin Guardia, whose only loss at this point was a decision to Finito, with a KO3 and unbeaten Japanese champ Shiohama (in Japan). BHOP to that point had done nothing like that. Alvarez went on to win a strap at 108 have three defenses, two of them against #2 ranked challenger Beibis Mendoza.
Now does that make him BHOP's equal overall? Not even close. But WHEN the two met? I think Alvarez was the more accomplished guy.
When I think about Sweet Pea, Lopez and RJJ I think about one guy who belongs in the top 25 somewhere (Sweet Pea) and two guys who belong in or a round the top fifty.
Who's with me? Anyone? Bueller?
Hopkins was ranked at no. 9 and yes he was nowhere near his peak, but guess what? Neither was Jones Jr. who was the no. 4 ranked MW by RIng. It's not like this was a peak Jones jr. beating Hopkins. And yes Alvarez was the more accomplished guy when he met Lopez compared to Hopkins meeting Jones Jr. But the Jones Jr. that met Hopkins had no where near the accomplishments, accolades, ring experience, ring savvy, p4p rank, and knowledge of the fight game that Lopez had when he met Alvarez. It goes both ways when you want to compare the Hopkins that met Jones to the Alvarez that met Lopez. So I'm going to compare the Lopez who met Alvarez at the time to the Jones Jr. that met Hopkins at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou're right on BHOP being ranked. Thank you for the correction!Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogThat is false that Hopkins was not ranked when he met Roy Jones. Hopkins was ranked by Ring Magazine annual rankings in 1992 at no. 9 (a source that you tend to quote in a lot of your posts or debates) in their April 1993 issue. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1992 - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia. Roy Jones and Hopkins fought in May of 1993. So indeed Hopkins was ranked as a top 10 MW when he fought Jones, and a future atg. Having a young Hopkins on the resume and winning the fight handily is very impressive for a not yet to be prime Roy Jones in his first title fight. In terms of boxing accomplishments and abilities Hopkins is leagues above Alvarez. Hopkins is an all time great fighter and easily cracks the top 50 fighters in history. Not to mentioned Jones Jr. had a much wider pool of fighters to contend with as Fenster posted compared to Lopez. So if you have a source that says Hopkins was an unranked comer as you've stated when he met Jones Jr. I would like to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThere can be no question that Lopez's defeat of Alvarez is more impressive than RJJ's win over BHOP. Alvarewz weighed in as a FLYWEIGHT and was at his absolute peak and an old Lopez still got him. BHOP at that time was an unranked comer. The win over Toney is, of course, the best on either resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
It doesn't matter a lick whose "fault" it was. The fact is one either fights the fights or they don't. This ain't the Olympics, one doesn't get credit for perceived walkovers.
Sorry, I don't see anyone on Lopez's resume that is the equivalent of a Hopkins or James Toney. Alvarez a better win than Hopkins? Not too many people will agree with you on that.;)
Let me try (however vainly) to make the case for Alvareza and see if i can convince ANYBODY :)
At the time BHOP was the #9 ranked middle and a comer, but not remotely near his peak, was he?
Bufalo was the #1 ranked contender and in his prior fights had beaten unbeaten strapholder and top five Porpaion twice (in Thailand), Kermin Guardia, whose only loss at this point was a decision to Finito, with a KO3 and unbeaten Japanese champ Shiohama (in Japan). BHOP to that point had done nothing like that. Alvarez went on to win a strap at 108 have three defenses, two of them against #2 ranked challenger Beibis Mendoza.
Now does that make him BHOP's equal overall? Not even close. But WHEN the two met? I think Alvarez was the more accomplished guy.
When I think about Sweet Pea, Lopez and RJJ I think about one guy who belongs in the top 25 somewhere (Sweet Pea) and two guys who belong in or a round the top fifty.
Who's with me? Anyone? Bueller?
BTW, in another post you were very critical of Jones jr. in that he didn't fight everyone and had major holes in his resume. So let's use a fighter that also has major holes in his resume and has been criticized by the boxing world as a cherry picking fighter, Manny Pacquiao. It was said that Pacquiao avoided any challenges in his career and cherry picked past their prime fighters and didn't fight dangerous opponents. So would you say in terms of legacy and accomplishment that Ricardo Lopez is ranked higher than Pacman? Yes Pacman is a still active fighter, but is he a less accomplished fighter than Lopez? Because if you are using the same criteria to criticize Jones Jr. than the same would apply to Pacman, no?
Let's be REALLY clear. I criticized Jones in the context of comparing him to other greats.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogHopkins was ranked at no. 9 and yes he was nowhere near his peak, but guess what? Neither was Jones Jr. who was the no. 4 ranked MW by RIng. It's not like this was a peak Jones jr. beating Hopkins. And yes Alvarez was the more accomplished guy when he met Lopez compared to Hopkins meeting Jones Jr. But the Jones Jr. that met Hopkins had no where near the accomplishments, accolades, ring experience, ring savvy, p4p rank, and knowledge of the fight game that Lopez had when he met Alvarez. It goes both ways when you want to compare the Hopkins that met Jones to the Alvarez that met Lopez. So I'm going to compare the Lopez who met Lopez at the time to the Jones Jr. that met Hopkins at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou're right on BHOP being ranked. Thank you for the correction!Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogThat is false that Hopkins was not ranked when he met Roy Jones. Hopkins was ranked by Ring Magazine annual rankings in 1992 at no. 9 (a source that you tend to quote in a lot of your posts or debates) in their April 1993 issue. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1992 - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia. Roy Jones and Hopkins fought in May of 1993. So indeed Hopkins was ranked as a top 10 MW when he fought Jones, and a future atg. Having a young Hopkins on the resume and winning the fight handily is very impressive for a not yet to be prime Roy Jones in his first title fight. In terms of boxing accomplishments and abilities Hopkins is leagues above Alvarez. Hopkins is an all time great fighter and easily cracks the top 50 fighters in history. Not to mentioned Jones Jr. had a much wider pool of fighters to contend with as Fenster posted compared to Lopez. So if you have a source that says Hopkins was an unranked comer as you've stated when he met Jones Jr. I would like to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThere can be no question that Lopez's defeat of Alvarez is more impressive than RJJ's win over BHOP. Alvarewz weighed in as a FLYWEIGHT and was at his absolute peak and an old Lopez still got him. BHOP at that time was an unranked comer. The win over Toney is, of course, the best on either resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
It doesn't matter a lick whose "fault" it was. The fact is one either fights the fights or they don't. This ain't the Olympics, one doesn't get credit for perceived walkovers.
Sorry, I don't see anyone on Lopez's resume that is the equivalent of a Hopkins or James Toney. Alvarez a better win than Hopkins? Not too many people will agree with you on that.;)
Let me try (however vainly) to make the case for Alvareza and see if i can convince ANYBODY :)
At the time BHOP was the #9 ranked middle and a comer, but not remotely near his peak, was he?
Bufalo was the #1 ranked contender and in his prior fights had beaten unbeaten strapholder and top five Porpaion twice (in Thailand), Kermin Guardia, whose only loss at this point was a decision to Finito, with a KO3 and unbeaten Japanese champ Shiohama (in Japan). BHOP to that point had done nothing like that. Alvarez went on to win a strap at 108 have three defenses, two of them against #2 ranked challenger Beibis Mendoza.
Now does that make him BHOP's equal overall? Not even close. But WHEN the two met? I think Alvarez was the more accomplished guy.
When I think about Sweet Pea, Lopez and RJJ I think about one guy who belongs in the top 25 somewhere (Sweet Pea) and two guys who belong in or a round the top fifty.
Who's with me? Anyone? Bueller?
BTW, in another post you were very critical of Jones jr. in that he didn't fight everyone and had major holes in his resume. So let's use a fighter that also has major holes in his resume and has been criticized by the boxing world as a cherry picking fighter, Manny Pacquiao. It was said that Pacquiao avoided any challenges in his career and cherry picked past their prime fighters and didn't fight dangerous opponents. So would you say in terms of legacy and accomplishment that Ricardo Lopez is ranked higher than Pacman? Yes Pacman is a still active fighter, but is he a less accomplished fighter than Lopez? Because if you are using the same criteria to criticize Jones Jr. than the same would apply to Pacman, no?
First off criticizing a guy who is in his TENTH division fighting ranked guys seems absolutely CRAZY to me. It is something fewer than ten guys in history have done. By today's standards Manny really is a lightweight isn't he? I mean on fight night he weights about what top lightweights weigh when they fight. Yet he has beaten a raft of ranked welters. It is incredible. Now is this the greatest set of welters ever? Not even close. But let's not forget he beat great 126-130's before ever getting to this weight.
Manny defeated the lineal 112 champ when Saskul was at his peak. He defeated MAB, the lineal 126 champ when he was pretty close to his peak. He defeatd JMM when he was pretty close to his peak. THEN he went to 147.
Who would you have had Manny fight that he hasn't fought?
The boxing world has criticized Pacman for jumping to 122 from 112 and not fighting Mark Johnson at 115, Johnny Tapia and Tim Austin at 118, Ayala the lineal champ at 122 and Wayne McCullough when Pacman was in the weight class, Joan Guzman and Edwin Valero at 130 when he was there, he also didn't fight Joel Casamayor the lineal champ at 135 or Juan Diaz who was undefeated at the time or Nate Campbell or Zahir Raheem but fought David Diaz instead, he didn't fight Bradley, Alexander, Maidana at 140 but only fought there once, at 147 he didn't fight Mosley when he was the lineal champ or Judah or Berto or Ortiz, he also isn't fighting Sergio Martinez at 160.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiLet's be REALLY clear. I criticized Jones in the context of comparing him to other greats.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogHopkins was ranked at no. 9 and yes he was nowhere near his peak, but guess what? Neither was Jones Jr. who was the no. 4 ranked MW by RIng. It's not like this was a peak Jones jr. beating Hopkins. And yes Alvarez was the more accomplished guy when he met Lopez compared to Hopkins meeting Jones Jr. But the Jones Jr. that met Hopkins had no where near the accomplishments, accolades, ring experience, ring savvy, p4p rank, and knowledge of the fight game that Lopez had when he met Alvarez. It goes both ways when you want to compare the Hopkins that met Jones to the Alvarez that met Lopez. So I'm going to compare the Lopez who met Lopez at the time to the Jones Jr. that met Hopkins at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou're right on BHOP being ranked. Thank you for the correction!Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogThat is false that Hopkins was not ranked when he met Roy Jones. Hopkins was ranked by Ring Magazine annual rankings in 1992 at no. 9 (a source that you tend to quote in a lot of your posts or debates) in their April 1993 issue. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1992 - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia. Roy Jones and Hopkins fought in May of 1993. So indeed Hopkins was ranked as a top 10 MW when he fought Jones, and a future atg. Having a young Hopkins on the resume and winning the fight handily is very impressive for a not yet to be prime Roy Jones in his first title fight. In terms of boxing accomplishments and abilities Hopkins is leagues above Alvarez. Hopkins is an all time great fighter and easily cracks the top 50 fighters in history. Not to mentioned Jones Jr. had a much wider pool of fighters to contend with as Fenster posted compared to Lopez. So if you have a source that says Hopkins was an unranked comer as you've stated when he met Jones Jr. I would like to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThere can be no question that Lopez's defeat of Alvarez is more impressive than RJJ's win over BHOP. Alvarewz weighed in as a FLYWEIGHT and was at his absolute peak and an old Lopez still got him. BHOP at that time was an unranked comer. The win over Toney is, of course, the best on either resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
It doesn't matter a lick whose "fault" it was. The fact is one either fights the fights or they don't. This ain't the Olympics, one doesn't get credit for perceived walkovers.
Sorry, I don't see anyone on Lopez's resume that is the equivalent of a Hopkins or James Toney. Alvarez a better win than Hopkins? Not too many people will agree with you on that.;)
Let me try (however vainly) to make the case for Alvareza and see if i can convince ANYBODY :)
At the time BHOP was the #9 ranked middle and a comer, but not remotely near his peak, was he?
Bufalo was the #1 ranked contender and in his prior fights had beaten unbeaten strapholder and top five Porpaion twice (in Thailand), Kermin Guardia, whose only loss at this point was a decision to Finito, with a KO3 and unbeaten Japanese champ Shiohama (in Japan). BHOP to that point had done nothing like that. Alvarez went on to win a strap at 108 have three defenses, two of them against #2 ranked challenger Beibis Mendoza.
Now does that make him BHOP's equal overall? Not even close. But WHEN the two met? I think Alvarez was the more accomplished guy.
When I think about Sweet Pea, Lopez and RJJ I think about one guy who belongs in the top 25 somewhere (Sweet Pea) and two guys who belong in or a round the top fifty.
Who's with me? Anyone? Bueller?
BTW, in another post you were very critical of Jones jr. in that he didn't fight everyone and had major holes in his resume. So let's use a fighter that also has major holes in his resume and has been criticized by the boxing world as a cherry picking fighter, Manny Pacquiao. It was said that Pacquiao avoided any challenges in his career and cherry picked past their prime fighters and didn't fight dangerous opponents. So would you say in terms of legacy and accomplishment that Ricardo Lopez is ranked higher than Pacman? Yes Pacman is a still active fighter, but is he a less accomplished fighter than Lopez? Because if you are using the same criteria to criticize Jones Jr. than the same would apply to Pacman, no?
First off criticizing a guy who is in his TENTH division fighting ranked guys seems absolutely CRAZY to me. It is something fewer than ten guys in history have done. By today's standards Manny really is a lightweight isn't he? I mean on fight night he weights about what top lightweights weigh when they fight. Yet he has beaten a raft of ranked welters. It is incredible. Now is this the greatest set of welters ever? Not even close. But let's not forget he beat great 126-130's before ever getting to this weight.
Manny defeated the lineal 112 champ when Saskul was at his peak. He defeated MAB, the lineal 126 champ when he was pretty close to his peak. He defeatd JMM when he was pretty close to his peak. THEN he went to 147.
Who would you have had Manny fight that he hasn't fought?
So people have said Pacquiao has a lot of misses on his resume and has taken a hit on his legacy for avoiding real challenges. I don't believe that but the criticism is out there. So when you criticized Jones Jr. for not making fights happen, so shouldn't the same reason be applied to Pacquiao for not making those fights happen?
Quote:
Let's be REALLY clear. I criticized Jones in the context of comparing him to other greats.
First off criticizing a guy who is in his TENTH division fighting ranked guys seems absolutely CRAZY to me. It is something fewer than ten guys in history have done. By today's standards Manny really is a lightweight isn't he? I mean on fight night he weights about what top lightweights weigh when they fight. Yet he has beaten a raft of ranked welters. It is incredible. Now is this the greatest set of welters ever? Not even close. But let's not forget he beat great 126-130's before ever getting to this weight.
Manny defeated the lineal 112 champ when Saskul was at his peak. He defeated MAB, the lineal 126 champ when he was pretty close to his peak. He defeatd JMM when he was pretty close to his peak. THEN he went to 147.
Who would you have had Manny fight that he hasn't fought?
Let's do this by division.Quote:
The boxing world has criticized Pacman for jumping to 122 from 112 and not fighting Mark Johnson at 115, Johnny Tapia and Tim Austin at 118, Ayala the lineal champ at 122 and Wayne McCullough when Pacman was in the weight class, Joan Guzman and Edwin Valero at 130 when he was there, he also didn't fight Joel Casamayor the lineal champ at 135 or Juan Diaz who was undefeated at the time or Nate Campbell or Zahir Raheem but fought David Diaz instead, he didn't fight Bradley, Alexander, Maidana at 140 but only fought there once, at 147 he didn't fight Mosley when he was the lineal champ or Judah or Berto or Ortiz, he also isn't fighting Sergio Martinez at 160.
So people have said Pacquiao has a lot of misses on his resume and has taken a hit on his legacy for avoiding real challenges. I don't believe that but the criticism is out there. So when you criticized Jones Jr. for not making fights happen, so shouldn't the same reason be applied to Pacquiao for not making those fights happen?
Do I wish I had seen Manny at 115 and 118? Sure. But the guy had lost his 112 crown on the scales because he couldn't make weight. If the guy feels he cannot compete at a lower division because he's too big? Waddya gonna do? So he goes to 122, where he clearly belongs as he stays there for 6-7 fights and he takes the Ledwaba fight on two weeks notice! Ledwaba at this point is #3 IIRC. Pretty damned daring at that point isn't it? Do I wish he had taken on Ayala? Sure! But by then Ayala had already signed to fight Bones Adams, which he did twice and then Ayala moved up to take on Morales at the same time Manny moved up to take on MAB. Now are you really going to criticize him for not waiting for Ayala when the MAB fight was offerred? Understand by this time Manny is already moving across his sixth division. By the time he gets to 130 he has beaten JMM MAB and Morales, pretty goddamned good if you ask me. His choice at that point really was to fight Raheem, Valero, or to finish the trilogy with Morales. I struggle to really question that choice don't you? By then Raheem has faded from the scene and Guzman is no longer reliable due to his weight. But if you're asking do I wish he'd have fought those guys? You betcha. The difference between him and Jones is Manny is fighting HOFers while Jones is, um, well, not.
At 135 Manny had one fight. I have zero issues with a guy taking a fight with a less than top guy to see how he handles the new weight. Like Jones did with Ruiz. The difference is nobody thinks the Diaz win means anything (me included) and some try to spin the Jones win as making him a heavyweight champ. Spare me. Now at THIS point manny SHOULD fight Campbell or Casamyor. But this treasure chest named Oscar walks in. Waddya gonna do?
Shockingly he wins and becomes a big name! Now the question is should he fight ranked 135's or ranked 140's and 147's while in his NINTH and TENTH divisions? I struggle to criticize the choice to fight the bigger guys over and over again. He fought THE MAN at 140 so while I'd like to see him drop down and fight Bradley, I struggle to complain about him fighting Hatton at Hatton's best weight.
In short, Jones took meaningless fights in too many cases instead of better ones, Manny took fights with BIGGER men and HOFers instead of the ones you named.
Now do I think Manny's resume is a top 25 all-time? I do not. Why? Among other things for the reasons you name. Had he fought those 6-7 guys IN ADDITION to who he fought? His resume would look like Roberto Duran's. But do you really think a resume inlcuding Raheem, Guzman, Bradley, Casamyor and Campbell is superior to one that includes instead Morales, Hatton, Oscar, Cotto, Clottey and JMM?
That's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThat's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
You said all of that, only to still not answer the question...
Perhaps because it had already been addressed earlier in the thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThat's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
You said all of that, only to still not answer the question...
Where does VD state fighters that answer the question?Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiPerhaps because it had already been addressed earlier in the thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThat's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
You said all of that, only to still not answer the question...
What's the point of repeating an answer already given? Marble's answer was on point.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThat's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogWho on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWell hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogJones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.
You said all of that, only to still not answer the question...
Is it that time of year again? ???
The whole "Who has Lopez beat?" "What makes him an ATG?" spectacle :beat:
I've gone over this one oooohhh I don't know 4/5 times now.
You can easily tell who's taken the time to look at his career (and I don't mean numbers) and who's just talking to talk.
Anywho here you go, from one of those 4/5 times that I've typed this;
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
And another one here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick