Modern day ATG.

[marbleheadmaui]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

[BIG H]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

In terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has produced
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Mosley, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.

[marbleheadmaui]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

In terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has produced
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.

I't comparitive of course. Take 1965-1980 as a comparison. Ali, Tiger, Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles Carlos Ortiz, Laguna, Locche, Elorde, Saldivar, Jofre, Harada, Kingpetch, Frazier, Foreman, Duran, Buchanan, Hearns, Leonard, Hagler, Benitez, Olivares, Zarate, Bob Foster, Monzon, Kid Pambele, Galindez, Palomino, Little Red Lopez, Arguello, The Hawk, Miguel Canto, Larry Holmes, Bobby Chacon, Salvador Sanchez, Eusabio Pedroza, Bazooke Gomez, Jeff Chandler, Yoko Gushiken, Pipino Cuevas (and I'm beginning to bore even me).

Like I said, boxing is still my favorite sport, but I don't think anyone wants to make the argument this is anything but a down period. The only question is how badly down.

None of Manny, Floyd or Sweet Pea have an argument for the top ten in my view. More like top 30 or so, top 50 or so and top 20 or so respectively. Certainly Ali, Duran and Leonard belong ahead of all three and Ali and Duran are probably both top tenners.

One thing I have come to understand is just how badly the lack of depth has screwed up the port. 25 years ago a guy like Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon before him didn't have to move divisions to find worthy challengers. The 160's were chock full of competent, talented guys that fight fans could see were threats. Over 12 years those two defended what? 25-30 times? The division just kept reloading. Today look at what Manny has had to do to fight twice a year against perceived solid challenegers. And in some corners he is being pilloried even for this! And its not like manny is the only guy who has to move to find fights. I mean what is Sergio Martinez to do?

I'm not sure there is anything to do about it. Just an observation.

[BIG H]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

In terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has produced
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.

I't comparitive of course. Take 1965-1980 as a comparison. Ali, Tiger, Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles Carlos Ortiz, Laguna, Locche, Elorde, Saldivar, Jofre, Harada, Kingpetch, Frazier, Foreman, Duran, Buchanan, Hearns, Leonard, Hagler, Benitez, Olivares, Zarate, Bob Foster, Monzon, Kid Pambele, Galindez, Palomino, Little Red Lopez, Arguello, The Hawk, Miguel Canto, Larry Holmes, Bobby Chacon, Salvador Sanchez, Eusabio Pedroza, Bazooke Gomez, Jeff Chandler, Yoko Gushiken, Pipino Cuevas (and I'm beginning to bore even me).

Like I said, boxing is still my favorite sport, but I don't think anyone wants to make the argument this is anything but a down period. The only question is how badly down.

None of Manny, Floyd or Sweet Pea have an argument for the top ten in my view. More like top 30 or so, top 50 or so and top 20 or so respectively. Certainly Ali, Duran and Leonard belong ahead of all three and Ali and Duran are probably both top tenners.

One thing I have come to understand is just how badly the lack of depth has screwed up the port. 25 years ago a guy like Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon before him didn't have to move divisions to find worthy challengers. The 160's were chock full of competent, talented guys that fight fans could see were threats. Over 12 years those two defended what? 25-30 times? The division just kept reloading. Today look at what Manny has had to do to fight twice a year against perceived solid challenegers. And in some corners he is being pilloried even for this! And its not like manny is the only guy who has to move to find fights. I mean what is Sergio Martinez to do?

I'm not sure there is anything to do about it. Just an observation.

I used to feel that way, but I like you used to very much favour older fighters. I have changed that view to a degree in the past 5-10 years, I think we see the past with rose tinted spectacles sometimes. Whether or not the 3 I mentioned belong in the top 10 or not, they certainly all 'have an argument' imo at least. As does RJJ.

If fights were 12 rounds in 1981, I wonder how different Hearns and Leonards career paths would have been (if at all)

[marbleheadmaui]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

In terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has produced
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.

I't comparitive of course. Take 1965-1980 as a comparison. Ali, Tiger, Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles Carlos Ortiz, Laguna, Locche, Elorde, Saldivar, Jofre, Harada, Kingpetch, Frazier, Foreman, Duran, Buchanan, Hearns, Leonard, Hagler, Benitez, Olivares, Zarate, Bob Foster, Monzon, Kid Pambele, Galindez, Palomino, Little Red Lopez, Arguello, The Hawk, Miguel Canto, Larry Holmes, Bobby Chacon, Salvador Sanchez, Eusabio Pedroza, Bazooke Gomez, Jeff Chandler, Yoko Gushiken, Pipino Cuevas (and I'm beginning to bore even me).

Like I said, boxing is still my favorite sport, but I don't think anyone wants to make the argument this is anything but a down period. The only question is how badly down.

None of Manny, Floyd or Sweet Pea have an argument for the top ten in my view. More like top 30 or so, top 50 or so and top 20 or so respectively. Certainly Ali, Duran and Leonard belong ahead of all three and Ali and Duran are probably both top tenners.

One thing I have come to understand is just how badly the lack of depth has screwed up the port. 25 years ago a guy like Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon before him didn't have to move divisions to find worthy challengers. The 160's were chock full of competent, talented guys that fight fans could see were threats. Over 12 years those two defended what? 25-30 times? The division just kept reloading. Today look at what Manny has had to do to fight twice a year against perceived solid challenegers. And in some corners he is being pilloried even for this! And its not like manny is the only guy who has to move to find fights. I mean what is Sergio Martinez to do?

I'm not sure there is anything to do about it. Just an observation.

I used to feel that way, but I like you used to very much favour older fighters. I have changed that view to a degree in the past 5-10 years, I think we see the past with rose tinted spectacles sometimes. Whether or not the 3 I mentioned belong in the top 10 or not, they certainly all 'have an argument' imo at least. As does RJJ.

If fights were 12 rounds in 1981, I wonder how different Hearns and Leonards career paths would have been (if at all)

Yup. No way to know of course. I think Arguello would have been hurt by a 12 round distance as well whereas guys like Benitez would have been helped.

I think folks today tend to be prisoners of the moment with regards to boxing. They look at other sports and think (in most cases rightly) that they are seeing those sports at their highest level. So they bring the same starting point to boxing. But if one takes a step back one realizes that SIZE is a huge reason for the improvement in sports as are improved training methods, more resources being devoted to them and more participants playing more often. If this were true of boxing we'd be in a golden age of heavyweights, right?

But of course none of that applies to boxing. Why? We have fewer fighters (one reason being guys can now make money in a lot more sports than they could 50 years ago), fewer facilities, fewer fights, we've been training fighters for 300 years and because boxing is weight restricted. ALL the measureables that get one comfortable that other sports are at their best show boxing cannot be anywhere close.

Then of course the eye test. Today there is less diversity of styles and fewer craftsman. Why? Dearth of teachers. Go watch a series of fights from the 1930's-1970's and then watch guys from today. With only a handful of exceptions, it is a noticeably lesser sport.

But still the best one there is.

[Pavlik]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

[marbleheadmaui]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

[Master]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

In terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has produced
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Mosley, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.

I would add Juan Manuel Marquez to your list.

[Boxer4life]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

i would disagree, the matchups haven't been great, but the fighters we have witnessed have been equivalent to sugar robinson days

[marbleheadmaui]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

i would disagree, the matchups haven't been great, but the fighters we have witnessed have been equivalent to sugar robinson days

There are perhaps ten guys in the last 20 years one can say that about. In Robinson's 20 years we had Robinson, Burley, Louis, Conn, Yarosz, Overlin, Zale, Bivins, Armstrong, Montgomery, Chalky, Moore, Marshall, Williams, LaMotta, Pep, Ike Williams, Charles, Turpin, Gavilan, Saddler, Manuel Ortiz, Basilio, Fulmer, Pascual Perez, Elorde, Liston, Harold Johnson, Giardello, Luis Rodriguez, Emile Griffith, Carlos Ortiz, Duilio Loi, Sugbar Ramos, Jofre, Dick Tiger, Pastrano and I can go on and on.

[Boxer4life]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

i would disagree, the matchups haven't been great, but the fighters we have witnessed have been equivalent to sugar robinson days

There are perhaps ten guys in the last 20 years one can say that about. In Robinson's 20 years we had Robinson, Burley, Louis, Conn, Yarosz, Overlin, Zale, Bivins, Armstrong, Montgomery, Chalky, Moore, Marshall, Williams, LaMotta, Pep, Ike Williams, Charles, Turpin, Gavilan, Saddler, Manuel Ortiz, Basilio, Fulmer, Pascual Perez, Elorde, Liston, Harold Johnson, Giardello, Luis Rodriguez, Emile Griffith, Carlos Ortiz, Duilio Loi, Sugbar Ramos, Jofre, Dick Tiger, Pastrano and I can go on and on.

def see your point