Now the fight is over does this suggest Groves will be more of a success in the game or does Degale still have all the tools to eclipse his rival?
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Now the fight is over does this suggest Groves will be more of a success in the game or does Degale still have all the tools to eclipse his rival?
Groves had a better gameplan. I'd like to see how both men (more so the looser) performs in their next fight.
My only experience with either guy was the fight last weekend. I didn't see in either guy a reason to believe they'd become a world class guy. Tough and fun? Sure.
DeGale will go further. He lost the fight because his tactics were shit and he was over confident. He was never ever in trouble. Whereas I think Groves fought his best fight.
One fight after being humiliated in 60 seconds, Warren had Khan smashing Barrera around a packed out MEN. A couple of decent wins and everyone will be convinced DeGale was robbed against GRoves and will kill him in the rematch.
do you think he was robbed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
think both can be world champs?
Ugly long faced cunt Degale wont go to the top , he is shit and lazy and believes his own hype. He fought the wrong fight ? nope thats what you will always get with him.
Groves is an honest hard working pro , who has talent , but will be Koed if he ventures into world class.
No way, they werent complacentworld weary long standing pros, they were both at the same stage in their careers and everyone thought De Gale was great because hed just beaten a blown up middle. Groves had the far tougher opponent, in the unbeaten Anderson and came through a rough patch and stopped him. Groves has proved he can turn it up to win and also that he can over come being an underdog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
De Gale on the other hand showed he was lazy and doesnt have very good skill. Hes like Chad Dawson, hes as good as hes getting because he doesnt have that work ethic.
Groves will go as far as his chin will let him, as long as he doesnt piss around with the low guard he can become a world champ.
When Calzaghe was due to fight Eubank, I watched maybe 6 of his previous fights and thought that he doesnt punch properly and all he has done so far is overwhelm so old journeymen. Look how far he went!
Was that Groves 12th fight? Hes only 23. I wouldnt put him in with any more walk overs from now on though other wise his progression will stagnate and plateau. If Froch beats Johnson, id go for a match with him (johnson). Groves needs to progressively up his comp to keep the skills and work rate progressing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
I understand what you're saying but i think rather than not looking like potential world class i think it was more a case of being so close in levels of where they're at that they cancelled each other in away and made it unclear to see the potential there.
If you check other top fighters records not all of them would have faced someone as tough as Groves/Degale at the same stage in their careers. Mayweather/Hatton/Calzaghe to name just a few. My point is that in meeting each other they have both faced a tough decent level of opposition and gone 12 good rounds. I think this will have done wonders for both of them.
As to who will be more successful it's hard to say it really depends on how they are matched and managed from now. Give Degale a confidence builder if needed just to get back to winning ways and i think they both need to continue fighting decent opposition where they will learn something not have their next 10 fights against journeymen or easy early knockouts to pad out there records. I think it's done Groves a world of good training alongside Haye over in America and it's maybe something Degale could also try (training in America, not alongside haye) I'm not saying to permanently base themselves there as that is not always the answer - a lot of people with fighters in the Uk think 'go to america and all will sort itself out'. It's not that simple but there are some advantages such as there being many gyms with many world class fighters to spar with and there is a much bigger pool of fighters all with a different style from which they can learn from. Degale and Cleverly in the build up to their fights at the weekend seemed to continually harp on about their sparring together like it was so amazing.
As of now i would say the potential is there for each of them to at least reach world level, whether or not they can win a title and have long successful reigns is another matter.
DeGale can fight better than that, Groves cant. DeGale will fiddle his way to a 'World' title at some point, Groves wont.
I can't decide, need to see them both in a few more fights. But i Don't think either one of them will have any type of dominant reign as world champ.
I certainly don't think DeGale was robbed. The fight could have gone either way. I was glad Groves got it. I actually cheered YES!!!
However, if you reverse the trainers/camp I think the result is the total opposite. DeGale's team were clueless the second Groves didn't attack him. We heard about great sparring with Nathan Cleverly (prospect). We heard team DeGale constantly slate Groves for having black eyes and being beat in sparring.
Groves sparred with Carl Froch and Andre Dirrell. So Groves did terrible in sparring because the worlds elite supermiddles were tarring him but DeGale was looking dynamite against British prospect Nathan Cleverly?
DeGale looked the more talented fighter but had the worst guidance. He has more potential.
which kind of fighters have you seen at this level in their careers where you have thought, yeah they will will be a dominant world champ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
I cant see any of these two can be a world champion...then again with the multi titles we have today maybe...but realistically no way...NOT A CHANCE
job biscuit (they have both have reached their level)!!!
eh eh!!!
I disagree. You could see Gamboa and Kostya (who faced LaPorte in his fourth fight) and Davey Moore (who won a strap in his ninth fight) and Evander (who faced Qawi in his 12th) and I can keep going and you could see they had something special, at least in spurts. Fluid movements, explosive punching, special reflexes etc. These two had none of those qualities that I could see. Two competent, and motivated, journeymen was what I saw. Now again, it was only one fight and one thing impossible to judge is the ability to learn.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyashQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
I understand what you're saying but i think rather than not looking like potential world class i think it was more a case of being so close in levels of where they're at that they cancelled each other in away and made it unclear to see the potential there.
If you check other top fighters records not all of them would have faced someone as tough as Groves/Degale at the same stage in their careers. Mayweather/Hatton/Calzaghe to name just a few. My point is that in meeting each other they have both faced a tough decent level of opposition and gone 12 good rounds. I think this will have done wonders for both of them.
As to who will be more successful it's hard to say it really depends on how they are matched and managed from now. Give Degale a confidence builder if needed just to get back to winning ways and i think they both need to continue fighting decent opposition where they will learn something not have their next 10 fights against journeymen or easy early knockouts to pad out there records. I think it's done Groves a world of good training alongside Haye over in America and it's maybe something Degale could also try (training in America, not alongside haye) I'm not saying to permanently base themselves there as that is not always the answer - a lot of people with fighters in the Uk think 'go to america and all will sort itself out'. It's not that simple but there are some advantages such as there being many gyms with many world class fighters to spar with and there is a much bigger pool of fighters all with a different style from which they can learn from. Degale and Cleverly in the build up to their fights at the weekend seemed to continually harp on about their sparring together like it was so amazing.
As of now i would say the potential is there for each of them to at least reach world level, whether or not they can win a title and have long successful reigns is another matter.
I also wonder about the notion that "fighters cancel each other out." My experience is when two really good fighters meet? One usually sees excellent and highly noticeable displays of talent, skill and craft, not cancelling out.
It's hard to say, both men are a long way from their primes I think. I mean they have both only just broke into double figures as far as pro fights go and to be honest it's quite clear when they fight. They both need at least another 10 fights IMO before they can even be mentioned in the same breath as the likes Ward and Froch, and then they have to keep winning against good fighters and not let it drop back down below top domestic level. I wouldn't mind seeing either take on Kenny Anderson in one of their next bouts.
After a fight like that I would start finding them tough but winnable (if your going to be world class) fights against the likes of Sakio Bika, Allan Green and Aaron Pryor Jr. I think they would both beat them but learn a hell of a lot too in the process.
Before the weekend I would have answered this question with DeGale no doubt but Groves showed me some good maturity at weekend and he is only going to get better in the years to come. As for DeGale I was surprised just how one dimensional he was, but that defeat could well make him the same way losing to Carl Thompson did David Haye. On the other hand he maybe fragile as far as his mental make up goes and he might never live upto potential now he's lost his 0, Only time will tell I suppose but I look forward to seeing both mens next fights and I hope they don't start fighting bums and try to prove themselves against good operators that they can learn from.
Evander, Kostya, Sweet Pea, Gamboa (if he improved some specific things related to craft), Ray Leonard, Mike Spinks (the '72 Olympic Team was insanely good), Floyd Jr, Oscar, Azumah (following the Sanchez fight) and some others. Those guys just jumped out at you very, very early. Kind of how Jose Benavidez has today.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44which kind of fighters have you seen at this level in their careers where you have thought, yeah they will will be a dominant world champ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
Now to be fair? I can also list guys who jumped out early who did NOT end up being longtime champs. Johnny Bumphus, Howard Davis (another '72 guy), Mike Quarry, the Viruets and Sean O'Grady.
I hate to do this mate but.............. Weren't Spinks and Leonard '76? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiEvander, Kostya, Sweet Pea, Gamboa (if he improved some specific things related to craft), Ray Leonard, Mike Spinks (the '72 Olympic Team was insanely good), Floyd Jr, Oscar, Azumah (following the Sanchez fight) and some others. Those guys just jumped out at you very, very early. Kind of how Jose Benavidez has today.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44which kind of fighters have you seen at this level in their careers where you have thought, yeah they will will be a dominant world champ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
Now to be fair? I can also list guys who jumped out early who did NOT end up being longtime champs. Johnny Bumphus, Howard Davis (another '72 guy), Mike Quarry, the Viruets and Sean O'Grady.
Aaaaaargh! Spinks and Leonard AND Howard Davis! Thanks! All '72 had was my guy Ray Seales!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuI hate to do this mate but.............. Wasn't Spinks '76? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiEvander, Kostya, Sweet Pea, Gamboa (if he improved some specific things related to craft), Ray Leonard, Mike Spinks (the '72 Olympic Team was insanely good), Floyd Jr, Oscar, Azumah (following the Sanchez fight) and some others. Those guys just jumped out at you very, very early. Kind of how Jose Benavidez has today.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44which kind of fighters have you seen at this level in their careers where you have thought, yeah they will will be a dominant world champ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
Now to be fair? I can also list guys who jumped out early who did NOT end up being longtime champs. Johnny Bumphus, Howard Davis (another '72 guy), Mike Quarry, the Viruets and Sean O'Grady.
Back to guys who looked special early though Roy Jones looked spectacular in the Olympics (we know how it panned out) and though after his first 2 fights it took a while to get any TV coverage of him, I have all his fights on DVD, the early ones are on Camcorder at ringside but you can still see just how skillfull he was. Yes he was fighting bums but he looked special and very very fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiAaaaaargh! Spinks and Leonard AND Howard Davis! Thanks! All '72 had was my guy Ray Seales!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuI hate to do this mate but.............. Wasn't Spinks '76? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiEvander, Kostya, Sweet Pea, Gamboa (if he improved some specific things related to craft), Ray Leonard, Mike Spinks (the '72 Olympic Team was insanely good), Floyd Jr, Oscar, Azumah (following the Sanchez fight) and some others. Those guys just jumped out at you very, very early. Kind of how Jose Benavidez has today.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44which kind of fighters have you seen at this level in their careers where you have thought, yeah they will will be a dominant world champ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
Now to be fair? I can also list guys who jumped out early who did NOT end up being longtime champs. Johnny Bumphus, Howard Davis (another '72 guy), Mike Quarry, the Viruets and Sean O'Grady.
On the flipside though and kind of a backup for Groves and DeGale, I remember watching early Lennox Lewis after he turned pro and thinking this guy has a lot to learn if he's going to make it to the top, but he did just that and found a style of boxing that went well with his stature and IMO went on to become an ATG HW.
That's a great point. It may be the more usual path that guys grow gradually and then one day it all comes together and they take a leap in excellence. I mean I sure wouldn't have guessed guys like Escalera or Cuevas or Mamby or Pendleton were going to be as accomplished as they ended up!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuBack to guys who looked special early though Roy Jones looked spectacular in the Olympics (we know how it panned out) and though after his first 2 fights it took a while to get any TV coverage of him, I have all his fights on DVD, the early ones are on Camcorder at ringside but you can still see just how skillfull he was. Yes he was fighting bums but he looked special and very very fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiAaaaaargh! Spinks and Leonard AND Howard Davis! Thanks! All '72 had was my guy Ray Seales!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuI hate to do this mate but.............. Wasn't Spinks '76? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiEvander, Kostya, Sweet Pea, Gamboa (if he improved some specific things related to craft), Ray Leonard, Mike Spinks (the '72 Olympic Team was insanely good), Floyd Jr, Oscar, Azumah (following the Sanchez fight) and some others. Those guys just jumped out at you very, very early. Kind of how Jose Benavidez has today.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44which kind of fighters have you seen at this level in their careers where you have thought, yeah they will will be a dominant world champ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
Now to be fair? I can also list guys who jumped out early who did NOT end up being longtime champs. Johnny Bumphus, Howard Davis (another '72 guy), Mike Quarry, the Viruets and Sean O'Grady.
On the flipside though and kind of a backup for Groves and DeGale, I remember watching early Lennox Lewis after he turned pro and thinking this guy has a lot to learn if he's going to make it to the top, but he did just that and found a style of boxing that went well with his stature and IMO went on to become an ATG HW.
You can add Johnny Nelson to that list I suppose too. He lost his first 3 fights and early on lost to quite a few people who should have never have lived with a future world champ, but after '95 and right upto his retirement in 2005 he never lost and defended the WBO Cruiserweight title quite a few times. His record is here if you would like to see it. Not saying he's an ATG, it's just hard to believe the kind of fighters he was losing to early on upto the fighters he was beating at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThat's a great point. It may be the more usual path that guys grow gradually and then one day it all comes together and they take a leap in excellence. I mean I sure wouldn't have guessed guys like Escalera or Cuevas or Mamby or Pendleton were going to be as accomplished as they ended up!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuBack to guys who looked special early though Roy Jones looked spectacular in the Olympics (we know how it panned out) and though after his first 2 fights it took a while to get any TV coverage of him, I have all his fights on DVD, the early ones are on Camcorder at ringside but you can still see just how skillfull he was. Yes he was fighting bums but he looked special and very very fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiAaaaaargh! Spinks and Leonard AND Howard Davis! Thanks! All '72 had was my guy Ray Seales!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuI hate to do this mate but.............. Wasn't Spinks '76? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiEvander, Kostya, Sweet Pea, Gamboa (if he improved some specific things related to craft), Ray Leonard, Mike Spinks (the '72 Olympic Team was insanely good), Floyd Jr, Oscar, Azumah (following the Sanchez fight) and some others. Those guys just jumped out at you very, very early. Kind of how Jose Benavidez has today.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44which kind of fighters have you seen at this level in their careers where you have thought, yeah they will will be a dominant world champ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
Now to be fair? I can also list guys who jumped out early who did NOT end up being longtime champs. Johnny Bumphus, Howard Davis (another '72 guy), Mike Quarry, the Viruets and Sean O'Grady.
On the flipside though and kind of a backup for Groves and DeGale, I remember watching early Lennox Lewis after he turned pro and thinking this guy has a lot to learn if he's going to make it to the top, but he did just that and found a style of boxing that went well with his stature and IMO went on to become an ATG HW.
Johnny Nelson - Boxer
[Laughing] I'd never even HEARD of this guy until I came here. He beat some pretty good fighters in Dominguez, Jones and Sellers. Some of his losses, Adilson and Sanders and Akinwande were probably as much about size as anything else. Nice career.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuYou can add Johnny Nelson to that list I suppose too. He lost his first 3 fights and early on lost to quite a few people who should have never have lived with a future world champ, but after '95 and right upto his retirement in 2005 he never lost and defended the WBO Cruiserweight title quite a few times. His record is here if you would like to see it. Not saying he's an ATG, it's just hard to believe the kind of fighters he was losing to early on upto the fighters he was beating at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThat's a great point. It may be the more usual path that guys grow gradually and then one day it all comes together and they take a leap in excellence. I mean I sure wouldn't have guessed guys like Escalera or Cuevas or Mamby or Pendleton were going to be as accomplished as they ended up!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuBack to guys who looked special early though Roy Jones looked spectacular in the Olympics (we know how it panned out) and though after his first 2 fights it took a while to get any TV coverage of him, I have all his fights on DVD, the early ones are on Camcorder at ringside but you can still see just how skillfull he was. Yes he was fighting bums but he looked special and very very fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiAaaaaargh! Spinks and Leonard AND Howard Davis! Thanks! All '72 had was my guy Ray Seales!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuI hate to do this mate but.............. Wasn't Spinks '76? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiEvander, Kostya, Sweet Pea, Gamboa (if he improved some specific things related to craft), Ray Leonard, Mike Spinks (the '72 Olympic Team was insanely good), Floyd Jr, Oscar, Azumah (following the Sanchez fight) and some others. Those guys just jumped out at you very, very early. Kind of how Jose Benavidez has today.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44which kind of fighters have you seen at this level in their careers where you have thought, yeah they will will be a dominant world champ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
Now to be fair? I can also list guys who jumped out early who did NOT end up being longtime champs. Johnny Bumphus, Howard Davis (another '72 guy), Mike Quarry, the Viruets and Sean O'Grady.
On the flipside though and kind of a backup for Groves and DeGale, I remember watching early Lennox Lewis after he turned pro and thinking this guy has a lot to learn if he's going to make it to the top, but he did just that and found a style of boxing that went well with his stature and IMO went on to become an ATG HW.
Johnny Nelson - Boxer
I want to choose Degale but I kind of think of him as kind of a mental midget with an ego. That loss could really effect his future performances. That is could. Not saying it will.
I think both Degale and Groves will go on and at least challenge for world titles and depending who they face may win them. I can also them fighting one another again similar to Benn v Eubanks at the world stage.
The only problems I can see is them being motivated enough for their next fights which will be lower profile and they both need to develop as they fought each other too early and have a lot to learn if they want to get to the world class level they are aiming for.