Is mike Tyson that great ?

If u are to be called a great fighter , surely you must of beat some really good or great fighters ? . Does iron mike really deserve to be called great ? . After all his best wins were over , Michael Spinks who was a great light heavy , but still a small heavyweight , and a faded legend in Larry Holmes . NOT the best resume is it . I know he was fearsome in his prime , but he never beat a top world class fighter in there prime .He was outclassed by Holyfield TWICE , and Lewis when long past his best . Bowe would have kicked his ass as well .

The 1986-1989 version was a great fighter, skill, speed, size, power and charisma. He obliterated the opposition. You could count one one hand how many big punches he took. He was awesome. Losing Rooney screwed his technique, having King manipulate him with yes men fed his ego and destroyed him.

Plus 3 years lost in prison.

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Originally Posted by imp

Plus 3 years lost in prison.

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He was going by then, he was described as the oldest 24 year old in the world when he fought toe to toe with Rudduck. The prison life made him weaker and he put on too much muscle to compensate and was really finished and hollow. Holyfield exposed that brutally.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by imp

Plus 3 years lost in prison.

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He was going by then, he was described as the oldest 24 year old in the world when he fought toe to toe with Rudduck. The prison life made him weaker and he put on too much muscle to compensate and was really finished and hollow. Holyfield exposed that brutally.

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Actually he was better in the 1st Razor Ruddock fight, there was nothing wrong with him in that fight at all. He was like a machine going to the body and head, apart from getting rocked in 1 round, which can happen to anyone.

He was great in that fight he looked like the Mike Tyson of old. But in the rematch he was looking too much for the one punch KO, and wasn't setting up the punches as good as he did in there 1st meeting.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by imp

Plus 3 years lost in prison.

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He was going by then, he was described as the oldest 24 year old in the world when he fought toe to toe with Rudduck. The prison life made him weaker and he put on too much muscle to compensate and was really finished and hollow. Holyfield exposed that brutally.

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Actually he was better in the 1st Razor Ruddock fight, there was nothing wrong with him in that fight at all. He was like a machine going to the body and head, apart from getting rocked in 1 round, which can happen to anyone.

He was great in that fight he looked like the Mike Tyson of old. But in the rematch he was looking too much for the one punch KO, and wasn't setting up the punches as good as he did in there 1st meeting.

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we always disagree on this, whilst it was an exciting fight, Tyson pre-Douglas would have avoided those punches and there was little head movement. He was good in that first fight but not great.

IMO Tyson only clain to greatness is the way he destroyed his opponents (most 2nd rate)in a way never witnessed in boxing in the past and the fact he won the world title at the age of just 20.

Tyson was luck the division was week when he was on the way up.

If he was on the way up in the early 90s instead of early/mid 80s i think the Tyson myth might never have been created.

What I will say for Tyson though is that he is the most exciting boxer to ever step in the ring.;D

No

I used to think he was the most overrated fighter in history. But then I couldn't think of anyone he could have faced that he didnt before the Douglass fight. Then the prison thing. I mean had he only beaten Douglass, then many would have saw the Holyfield-Tyson fight instead of Holyfield-Douglass, and he may have been viewed differently.

I still think that any version of Holy beats any version of Tyson. But his prison fall off definitely helped Lennox Lewis in giving him more time to grow into his prime, because i think Tyson would have beaten the small version of lennox.

its a tough one as in his prime there really wasnt any great competition for him, but if there had of been we may never of seen those devastating ko's that are forever in our mind!

Almost everyone who becomes the true heavyweight king is serious business. That is an enormous accomplishment.

Now once you limit the discussion to guys who have done that? Well, one thing is the guy had only two defenses. That's certainly fewer than most.

As for the devastation Tyson wrought? That's impossibly overblown.

What I prefer in Tyson was his ability to put fear in his opponent's head. I'm pretty sure that nobody have ever been more feared than Tyson in the history of boxing.

Also, he was small, really small for a heavyweight. But him and d'Amato was able to change this weakness into one of his biggest strenght with the peek-a-boo style and his awesome step-in.

And I agree that d'Amato's dead was the beginning of his downfall. It's a pity we couldn't see more of him.

Using the same premise essentially is Marcinao great? How about Holmes? Both men benefited by perfect timing.

Tyson was pretty tough, because, unlike many HWs, his offense was based off his defense.
But here's where it all gets funky. Losing Rooney was not what made him slip, because Rooney was just a drunken stumble bum to begin with. Tyson was done in by the peek-a-boo style.
In that manner of fighting, reflexes are key. Patterson ditched it, but Tyson never did. What he needed, once his reflexes slipped, was not somebody seeking to return him to his "old" style, especially not Rooney (who was never otherwise involved with anyone of any success).
What he needed was a trainer that would point him in a direction that would enable him to succeed.
And no HW will ever be "great" because HWs are typically so abysmally skilled.

Greynotsold that is the dumbest post i have ever seen posted ever. We in saddo are all dumber from reading let god have mercy on your soul when you die dude.

Well I think Grey makes a fair point. Once Tyson couldn't sustain that ridiculous side-to-side head movement that worked so well for him (and added to the aura of ferocity), his days fighting out of a peak-a-boo stance should of been done.... I mean, can you imagine Mike Tyson fighting out of a Philly-shell defence, actually rolling with shots, expending far less energy than by making wide head movements, and countering with cuffing hooks and short rights... It would of been BRILLIANT!

But fuck me what a long shot ;D

But seriously, Tyson was a strange one. For me, he did the Heavyweight division a MASSIVE favour in the mid 80's and seriously, I don't see anyone doing what he managed to do (if not so quickly).

I know you could say this about a high number of fighters but on his day Tyson was just a ridiculous amalgamation, speed, power and just overall aggressive athleticism that NO HEAVYWEIGHT has ever been able to rival.

He was without a doubt the biggest physical phenomenon boxing had/ has witnessed* and I truly believe that he would punch six holes out of the jaw of any man on his best day.

Mike Tyson is a great Heavyweight.

Jim i was talking about him saying no heavyweight can be great i think it is a fucking stupid thing to say.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Jim i was talking about him saying no heavyweight can be great i think it is a fucking stupid thing to say.

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Oh :-\

Well, I didn't see that part... You know, I'm pretty sure Grey is a drinker ;D :p

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

Well I think Grey makes a fair point. Once Tyson couldn't sustain that ridiculous side-to-side head movement that worked so well for him (and added to the aura of ferocity), his days fighting out of a peak-a-boo stance should of been done.... I mean, can you imagine Mike Tyson fighting out of a Philly-shell defence, actually rolling with shots, expending far less energy than by making wide head movements, and countering with cuffing hooks and short rights... It would of been BRILLIANT!

But fuck me what a long shot ;D

But seriously, Tyson was a strange one. For me, he did the Heavyweight division a MASSIVE favour in the mid 80's and seriously, I don't see anyone doing what he managed to do (if not so quickly).

I know you could say this about a high number of fighters but on his day Tyson was just a ridiculous amalgamation, speed, power and just overall aggressive athleticism that NO HEAVYWEIGHT has ever been able to rival.He was without a doubt the biggest physical phenomenon boxing had/ has witnessed* and I truly believe that he would punch six holes out of the jaw of any man on his best day.

Mike Tyson is a great Heavyweight.

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The bold in particular is really well said. I never warmed to Tyson simply because I thought the division stank (not his fault) and I'm not a big fan of mismatches that lead to short fights (not Tyson's fault either). But for 2-3 years he did everything I could ask of a fighter. he came in fit, he fought everyone there was to fight and he fought hard. Even when he lost to Buster he was gallant. It took a real beating to finish him and he came within an inch of pulling off a miracle.

I think I come off as anti-Tyson but it is only in response to the more ridiculous claims made by his more enthusiastic fans. As weird as the guy was and is? On balance he was great for the sport.

Mike Tyson had a very short prime but oh what a prime it was. Losing Rooney and D'amato affected Tyson's discipline and that's where everything started to go downhill.

Put boxing aside for a sec....

Anyone watching him live on Jimmy Kimmel right now ;D Guy is on fire, joking the hell out of Jimmy. Lost a ton of weight...he's either very very happy in life of ready for a straight jacket. Funny as hell

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Put boxing aside for a sec....

Anyone watching him live on Jimmy Kimmel right now ;D Guy is on fire, joking the hell out of Jimmy. Lost a ton of weight...he's either very very happy in life of ready for a straight jacket. Funny as hell

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I guess I'm staying up tonight to watch Kimmell!

Thanks!

People that discredit Tyson, would not have done so after the Spinks fight. I don't remember any of the criticisms that we now have, being made back then...which means they are based on what went after that. Well that's not looking at his prime! If Tyson retired after the Spinks fight, I'd like to bet not many people would believe that Bowe, Lewis or anybody else since Tyson would've beaten him. Although people try to be objective and forget what he became and all his flaws/weaknesses, these things (that happened after hiS prime) are always (even subsconsciously) taken into consideration imo.

Fact is if he retired after the Spinks fight, everybody has him top 5 all time heavyweight!
(imo of course)

I remeber pulling Britkid up on this years ago. He said he had Tyson as number 12 all time heavyweight. I asked him where he had him on that list back in 1988 and he said top 3. To which I said, well he is still top 3 then!!

:tombstone:Britkid :eek:

Well, since we're talking about how great Tyson is, here's my favorite video of him where you can see how good Tyson was at his prime.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58aMy4MzVsU


I love the "pretend no to be scared" look Ribalta have at the beginning ;D

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

:tombstone:Britkid :eek:

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What happened to Britkid? I was just talking about him...

Came back for a couple of weeks about a year ago and then vanished again :-\

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Originally Posted by Eloking

I love the "pretend no to be scared" look Ribalta have at the beginning ;D

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LOL, yeah I love the way he sort of takes his 'scary' eyes away with him as he turns his head. Like he dare not show his 'normal shit scared eyes' before he turns away ;D

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Originally Posted by BIG H

People that discredit Tyson, would not have done so after the Spinks fight. I don't remember any of the criticisms that we now have, being made back then...which means they are based on what went after that. Well that's not looking at his prime! If Tyson retired after the Spinks fight, I'd like to bet not many people would believe that Bowe, Lewis or anybody else since Tyson would've beaten him. Although people try to be objective and forget what he became and all his flaws/weaknesses, these things (that happened after hiS prime) are always (even subsconsciously) taken into consideration imo.

Fact is if he retired after the Spinks fight, everybody has him top 5 all time heavyweight!
(imo of course)

I remeber pulling Britkid up on this years ago. He said he had Tyson as number 12 all time heavyweight. I asked him where he had him on that list back in 1988 and he said top 3. To which I said, well he is still top 3 then!!

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But that's how we assess EVERYONE! Looking back. The fact is had he retired after the Spinks fight everyone would have said that's the shortest, least complete heavyweight championship career we've ever seen, WTF?

He had great potential but failed to live up to it so no, Tyson is nowhere near great. I dont even like to use that term when describing a fighter like him. He was just a beast during his prime but when he stepped up against the best, he failed... He never came through on his biggest nights. The man wasn't capable of overcoming adversity and that is not a great fighter.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by BIG H

People that discredit Tyson, would not have done so after the Spinks fight. I don't remember any of the criticisms that we now have, being made back then...which means they are based on what went after that. Well that's not looking at his prime! If Tyson retired after the Spinks fight, I'd like to bet not many people would believe that Bowe, Lewis or anybody else since Tyson would've beaten him. Although people try to be objective and forget what he became and all his flaws/weaknesses, these things (that happened after hiS prime) are always (even subsconsciously) taken into consideration imo.

Fact is if he retired after the Spinks fight, everybody has him top 5 all time heavyweight!
(imo of course)

I remeber pulling Britkid up on this years ago. He said he had Tyson as number 12 all time heavyweight. I asked him where he had him on that list back in 1988 and he said top 3. To which I said, well he is still top 3 then!!

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But that's how we assess EVERYONE! Looking back. The fact is had he retired after the Spinks fight everyone would have said that's the shortest, least complete heavyweight championship career we've ever seen, WTF?

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Prime is prime and after Williams Tyson was damaged goods. If you are looking at peoples' prime you have to judge him between 1986 and 1989. How many world title fights did your beloved John L Sullivan have? Savaldor Sanchez was World champion for 2 years, his death did not change how good he was, so why should what happend to Tyson?

BTW being Lineal champion and that being the shortest reign ever IF he retired after the Spinks fight does not mean he wasn't great. A belt does not make you great.

Thats bullshit big h His lose to Douglas was a close to his prime and i don't give a shit what anybody says about that. You could also say that Lennox lewis never lost in his prime either because one was early and in his career and one was late. The only loses i don't count against a fighter is when they are shot and so far off prime that they are a name and not a fighter anymore.

Sanchez never got the shit kicked out of him , loads of times .

Sanchez died before he had the chance to.

I'm pretty sure Mike Tyson thought he'd wind up dead before 30 and that must of been key to his mental outlook. He was always prone to self-distruct.
.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Thats bullshit big h His lose to Douglas was a close to his prime and i don't give a shit what anybody says about that. You could also say that Lennox lewis never lost in his prime either because one was early and in his career and one was late. The only loses i don't count against a fighter is when they are shot and so far off prime that they are a name and not a fighter anymore.

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He was a mess going into the Douglas fight. He had just got divorced, he hadn't trained, some people claimed he was taking drugs. That was not the real Mike Tyson in that ring and imo we never saw him again. Cracks had started in his mental state as early as the Bruno fight, he had all the contract issues with King and Cayton amongst other things mentioned.

He was the last Heavyweight to make the world tune in and get excited. More so than Lewis or Vitali could ever claim to. Now, you can argue the competition he faced, but noone did more for the publicity of the sport than him in the modern era save Ali.

There is no doubt that the MIke Tyson from 1986-89 was an awesome sight to behold, like big George in 1973-74 he was almost indestructible, lifestyle, the pressures of immediate fame and fortune simply got the better of him. You cannot deny his complete domination of the division in this time, his loss to Douglas was the beginning of the end. You can only beat who they put in front of you and Tyson did that in spectacular fashion, is he a top 10 ATG Heavyweight? That remains open for debate.

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

There is no doubt that the MIke Tyson from 1986-89 was an awesome sight to behold, like big George in 1973-74 he was almost indestructible, lifestyle, the pressures of immediate fame and fortune simply got the better of him. You cannot deny his complete domination of the division in this time, his loss to Douglas was the beginning of the end. You can only beat who they put in front of you and Tyson did that in spectacular fashion, is he a top 10 ATG Heavyweight? That remains open for debate.

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I think he came back relatively well after Douglas, I think the real nail in the coffin was 3 years in prison. Tyson was a high action pressure fighter, you don't come out of jail doing exactly what you were doing a third of a decade earlier and Tyson though still immensely strong and relatively quick, was clearly never the same. I don't believe Holyfield would have had much of a chance against prime Tyson, jail brought Tyson down to the level of most of the other top fighters. Before that when fully prepared he was a level above. The only person that beat him prior to jail was himself. If you don't prepare for a fight, then you don't win and by all accounts Tyson did not prepare for Douglas. Douglas was in the right place at the right time and of course lightning did not strike twice for Buster Douglas. It was a one off. Tyson came back and beat up Ruddock and showed that he was still a force.

The myth of Mike Tyson was that he could beat up any HW great at their best from Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, Holmes, Foreman came from spectacularly knocking out guys like Trevor Berbick, Pinklon Thomas, 39 year old Holmes, and blownup LHW Spinks that caught Holmes at the right time.

Prime for prime and even with Rooney and D'amato in his corner I don't give him that much of a shot of beating them. Knocking out mediocre opposition is 1 thing, trying to do it against all time greats is another. Tyson wasn't prime in his fights with Holyfield and Lewis, but neither were those 2. Holyfield was considered to be a shot fighter in '96 and Lewis was 37 years old and a year from retirement when he fought Tyson.

Tyson was not on Holyfield level and would never beat him ever. Tyson had nothing to really throw Holyfeild off and i am sick od this of Tyson was not prime. Holyfeild was older then him had hart problems and i also believe hep b but he could still win fights you know why because he is a atg.