In Atlantic City... A big step up for DB and I don't fancy his chances although I think he has a great range. What do you think? A chance?
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In Atlantic City... A big step up for DB and I don't fancy his chances although I think he has a great range. What do you think? A chance?
Martinez is a massive overwhelming favourite
he is however the most overrated fighter in the world today so it will be a lot closer than most have it
I still cant see him losing tho
Does your idiocy hold no boundaries?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
He beats Barker within five.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxingbantzDoes your idiocy hold no boundaries?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
He beats Barker within five.
jesus man, chill ooooooooooooot
you dont think martinez is overrated I take it?
Of course he isn't. He is, without doubt, at this moment in time, one of the top three fighters in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxingbantzOf course he isn't. He is, without doubt, at this moment in time, one of the top three fighters in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
seems to be an opinion of a few, i dont think someone who has only won 3 of his last 5 is 3rd or 2nd best boxer in the world
I think there are people with better recent records
but opinions are ok arent they?
It's the opinion of the majority actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
As for only winning three of last five, he drew with Cintron and was robbed against Williams. Not bad going tbh.
im not saying he doesnt deserve to be up there, but 2nd or 3rd in the world?Quote:
Originally Posted by boxingbantzIt's the opinion of the majority actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
As for only winning three of last five, he drew with Cintron and was robbed against Williams. Not bad going tbh.
and it doesnt matter if you or anybody else thinks he should or shouldnt have won a fight the fact is he didnt win those two fights
Lamb to the slaughter.
So applying the same logic then, the fact is, Matthysse lost to Devon Alexander? Or that Lara lost to Paul Williams, yeah?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxingbantzSo applying the same logic then, the fact is, Matthysse lost to Devon Alexander? Or that Lara lost to Paul Williams, yeah?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
yes, they should have won, but it would be impossible to start ranking fighters off fights they should or shouldnt have won, the only way to do it soundly is to do it by facts
I'll give you an example, Degale just fought Groves, Groves won, a lot of people think Degale won, and a lot of people who think Groves won thinks Degale is still a better boxer
But no matter what Groves has to be ranked above Degale because he won the fight
Martinez within 7, not going to be close at all.
Bigger robbery in the Cintron fight aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by boxingbantzIt's the opinion of the majority actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
As for only winning three of last five, he drew with Cintron and was robbed against Williams. Not bad going tbh.
I'll be cheering wildy for Barker to pull the upset. Martine will of course be a massive favourite but as Erik said he is overrated.
Few boxers (Donaire aside) have been rated so highly for achieving so little in recent years.
He's beaten Williams and Pavlik....and that's it :confused:
Williams beat him first time around, ok he was robbed against Cintron, but come on it shouldn't have gone to the judges. You can't honestly tell me that even smaller guys like Manny, Floyd, maybe even Ortiz and Berto wouldn't have wrecked Kermit Cintron, being taken 12 rounds and having it even within the realms of allowing the judges to see him winning the fight is poor imo.
He's benefited by being the right guy, at the right weight, at the right time, and is filling the current middleweight void.
For me guys like Tim Bradley, Andre Ward, Carl Froch, Lucian Bute, Wladimir Klitschko and Bernard Hopkins have all done just as much or more than he has. Wins over Williams (1-1), and Pavlik are no more impressive than dominating guys like Kessler, Abraham, Alexander, Haye, Pascal, Tarver etc.
People have got seriously carried away with how good they think he is.
Watching the pathetic ways both Cintron and Williams fought last weekend, and of course how insipdly Pavlik fought against B Hop you have to really ask the question, if Martinez is really great, why was the first Williams fight, the Cintron and Pavlik fights as competitive as they were?
Barker likely won't win but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he comfortably went 12 rounds and made Martinez look a bit ordinary.
In Martinez' defence, he did knock out Cintron - the ref might have ruled it a headbutt instead of a punch, but Cintron got hit and was down for a 10-count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
It's a crap fight. Let's not pretend otherwise. Martinez will win in 6 and we can all say "well, I predicted that one". It means nothing.
Martinez is a strong favourite but Barker is a good fighter and pretty unexposed. Pretty good puncher too. Be a big upset but not the biggest ever. Good for Barker and Eddie Hearn for getting this fight.
Bilbo - Martinez did KO Cintron. The ref counted him out. Told him the fight is over. That decision should have been changed. If not I reckon Kenny Bayless took the piss when counting Hatton's unconcious body out against Pac. Surely Hatton should have been given another go once they had semi revived him.
In fact every KO'd fighter should get a second chance on the same night.
Actually this is completely untrue. The referee didn't count him out which is why it was allowed to continue. Watch the video on youtube. He got up at 9 which was also the time the bell sounded. The ref had no business stopping the fight in the first place and everybody got confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Max also agrred with the referee in his fight commentary. No KO. Good call by the referee who also counted the knockdown so got the headbutt call right
Watch for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQzXjMmb7w0
I really like Barker and think that potentially he could be a world champion, but this is way too soon for him and Maryinez is way too good!
Even if you think Martinez got a legit draw against and Cintron, lost the first Williams fight, and was in a close fight with Pavlik, Martinez still should get credit for taking on tough competition. A lot of this heat he is taking has the convenience of 20/20 hindsight.
When he fought Pavlik he was the underdog. Kelly Pavlik Vs Sergio Gabriel Martinez Odds. When he fought Paul Williams 1, he was a huge underdog. When he fought Paul Williams 2, the odds were even. He should also get credit for taking guys like Paul Williams and Sergiy Dzinziruk out with such ferocity.
I'm not going to argue with Erics44 and Mr. Baggins about this because it's been beat to death, and, truthfully, this thread was NOT about whether he should be ranked p4p, it was about the fight with Darren Barker. This is clearly a keep-busy opponent, which regardless of where you rank him p4p, he deserves a keep-busy fight as much as anyone does. It's comparable to Saul Alvarez fighting Ryan Rhodes. The only difference is that Saul fought Matthew Hatton before Ryan Rhodes and Sergio Martinez fought Sergiy Dzinziruk. And also, Sergio Martinez is still getting used to being a full fledged middleweight. What is this his third fight at that weight taking away the catchweight fights that Paul Williams forced on him?
As a big Sergio Martinez fan, I'll tell you what I want to see out of this fight. I want to see Sergio Martinez take Darren Barker out with the same destruction that he's taken out his recent opponents. The only crappy part about that is that Darren Barker seems like a real class act. He's getting a big pay day though so it ain't all bad.
;D
Hilarious Bilbo.
The ref even says TEN!!! He waves the fight off. Tells him it's over. He even tells Cintron he didn't see a headbutt.
Watch this version it's more clear/in sync. And Max was waffling bullshit there, you can be counted out in the act of rising.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab4Nw4N_z-Q
What about Sergei Dzinziruk, the unbeaten WBO Jr. Middle champ too? That's a guy many thought would give Sergio problems & he took him apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Add that to the 1 punch KO of Williams & you have 2 very impressive wins over guys with great records. Not only is Sergio winning those big fights but the ease with which he won them.
He's only won his last two fights easily. He lost to Williams the first time, and Pavlik was competitive until the last four rounds, that was a hard fight.
@Rantcatrat, I do give hij credit for taking on decent opposition, but really his opposition hasn't been that impressive in comparison to others.
Ward has completely dominated Kessler and Abraham and easily got past Allan Green and Sakio Bikz too. To me his resume is more impressive and he's a better fighter. In a p4p fight I think Ward takes Martinez to school. He's far too easy to hit.
Froch in successive fights has fought Pascal, Jermain Taylor, Dirrel, Kessler, Abraham AND Glen Johnson, and gone 5-1, to me his resume is also superior.
Tim Bradley hasn't yet had a defining fight but he's been dominating everyone he's fought. If him and Khan meet the winner will have done as much as Martinez also.
I just don't see why going 1-1 with Paul Williams and outpointing Pavlik, both fighters who had already been beat is such a momentous thing, worthy of him being seen as the second best fighter on the planet.
It seems that a one punch ko of Paul Williams, arguably the easiest man to hit in all of boxing has made a monster out of Martinez.
It's no different to Juan Manuel Lopez annihilaitng Ponce De Leon in one round and then battering his next several opponents in onesided fights. Turned out he wasnt't actually the unstoppable force when he got stopped last time out.
Martinez has looked good...so far, but he's not fought any elite fighters in form yet. He holds his hands low, he gets hit often and he's 35. It could easily turn around for him and you might see him getting ko'd in an unlikely upset, or else outboxed by a skilled technician who really fancies his chances and ian't intimidated. A few years ago everyone on here was jumping on the Christian Mijares bandwagon and well, look how that turned out, have his last 3 or 4 fights even been televised?
In Martinez I just don't see a fighter on the level of a Manny, Mayweather, Hopkins or Jones jr, or even a Calzaghe, Mosley, Marquez, Morales, Barrera etc. He's decent, sure, but he's beaten nobody to justify a top 2 p4p spot imo. He is there, quite honestly, because most of the top fighters have recently retired and we are waiting whilst new stars build their resumes.
Martinez won't last once a new force arrives is my prediction. And he won't find Barker a walkover either.
We're going to have to agree to disagree. However, before I go further, in the sake of progressing with the argument, what fights would you like to see Sergio take to merit his p4p ranking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'll explain why people rank Sergio so high, first in what he has done himself, and then in relation to what other people have done. At the time that Paul Williams fought Sergio Martinez he was a top 5 p4p fighter and dubbed the most "feared fighter on the planet" and at the time he fought Kelly Pavlik he was the lineal middleweight champion. Add to that the facts that he is a multi-division champ and the serious manner in which he dispels his opponents and you and you have the reasons why he is ranked as high as he is.
Now, you may say that Kelly Pavlik wasn't all that NOW, but at the time, he was perceived to be a beast. He had only lost to Bernard Hopkins and that was at 10 pounds above the weight class he ha fought his career at. Pavlik had recently destroyed the best middleweight in the world in Jermain Taylor. Now, since then, Kelly Pavlik has lost his career in the bottle and hasn't looked as good, but at the time, without 20/20 hindsight, he was looked at as a beast. Go read articles about Kelly Pavlik two years ago and you'll see that is evident.
You'll find the same about Paul Williams. Without 20/20 hindsight, when Sergio fought Paul Williams, Paul had destroyed Winky Wright, Carlos Quintana and Verno Phillips. He looked like a beast. Now, Sergio may have destroyed Paul Williams in the same way that Joe Calzaghe destroyed Lacy because Paul Williams hasn't looked the same since.
Sergiy Dzinziruk, by boxing heads, was known to be the best at 154. Cotto may be ranked #1, but most people believed that Sergiy deserved that. Angulo and Williams declined to fight him when given the chance. Sergio dominated and destroyed the top 154 in the world.
The difference between Ward and Froch and Martinez is that Froch and Ward have done all their business at one weight class, and even their wins aren't in that one weight class spectacular. Who is Froch's best win? Who is Ward's? Ward's was definitely Kessler and Froch's was Pascal. Neither of them was remotely close to a top ten p4p spot when Ward or Froch them or even in the case of Froch, the top of the division when they he fought them. Kessler's best victory is over Froch. Kessler is famous because he lost to Calzaghe and was competitive for the first 4 rounds. Ward is a better argument. Neither of them has even beat the man in their division at this point. The top 3 in their division are Bute, Ward, and Froch. In my opinion, when one of them beats one of the others, they then deserve mention. So, the winner of Ward and Froch, should be a p4p fighter. I'm not trying to take down Froch or Ward. They are both great fighters and are top 20 p4p. I'd probably put Ward in the top ten really.
Also, where Ward and Froch have won, they haven't won big. When was the last time Froch had a jaw dropping knockout or a Joe Calzaghe-Jeff Lacy type dominating win? He hasn't. When was the last time Ward dropped anyone? Hell, when was the last time Carl Froch or Andre Ward even knocked anyone out? Ward couldn't even take a tired Miranda out if I recall. Sergio Martinez beats people in style and it is always fun to watch. Bute does the same thing although against lesser competition. Nonito does the same thing and against comparable competition (at least the KO over Montiel). Knockouts like theirs make stars.
Lastly, You mentioned Sergio Martinez in the same breadth as Marquez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Calzaghe, etc., the best fighters of the last decade. That is a compliment in and of itself. I agree he isn't there yet and he may never be. He's already 36 in any event. Have no fear, he won't be top 2 for very long, as soon as Mayweather beats Ortiz, he'll be number 3.
One more thing, I think you have an argument with Tim Bradley. He's moved up in weight (for one fight) and fought the best at his weight class sans Khan.
I'm not saying Martinez isn't deserving of a p4p spot, even a top 3 p4p spot really. But he's there not because of some super acomplishments but rather because the mora acomplished stars of recent years have retired or are well past their best.
Go back a few years, to when Floyd, Manny, Marquez, Hopkins, Calzaghe, Mosley, Hatton etc were all top fighters and Martinez on his current acomplishments would maybe scraped in at number 10, but because of the recent dearth of big name active stars he's at a ridiculously high number 2. Is that wrong? Possibly not seeing as there are few big stars in boxing right now but is he really a legit p4p number 2 guy, no way on his current performances imo.
He has one world titles in two weight classes and he unquestionably the number 1 middleweight right now, I just don't think he would have beat a prime Hopkins, or even a prime Pavlik.
And Pavlik was damaged goods when Martinez fought him. He had been literally humiliated against Hopkins, made to look like a novice and he clearly hasn't been the same fighter since. He's been an alcoholic, had to go to rehab and is now fighting at a higher weight and has said he could no longer make 160, unsurprising for a 6 ft 1 well built guy.
Martinez didn't beat the best Pavlik, he beat a mentally beaten, alcholic Pavlik fighting at about 70%. Do I think Martinez would have beat the Pavlik that wrecked Edison Miranda and stopped Jermain Taylor? No I do not. I think that Pavlik stops Martinez, who is too easy to hit.
Regarding his choice of opponents, I don't have any complaints. I even think Darren Barker is a worthy opponent, unbeaten fighter, European or Commonwealth champ, I forget which a decent amatuer pedigree. No complaints over his choice of opponent. The middleweight division is one of the weaker divisions in boxing right though and their is little real talent, which is why Martinez looks so good in comparison.
It would be interesting to see him in with Lara, and Artur Abraham if only he would go back down. I think if he took on Hopkins at a catchweight you would see his limitations, and not just because of the size disadvantage. Martinez against prime Hop at 160 gets owned imo. He's really not great, he's just decent and gutsy in a weak division.
Well, what you're saying now isn't all that controversial. A prime Hopkins beating a prime Martinez. Hopkins has a top HOF resume. I think a prime Sergio Martinez beats a prime Kelly Pavlik. I think Sergio Martinez should fight Felix Sturm or Daniel Geale. I don't think there's a point in a fight with Chavez Jr. unless it was a breather fight because we already know the outcome. Pacquiao is too small. Mayweather or Cotto wouldn't be bad, but Cotto is the bigger of the two, and in my opinion is passed his best, and wouldn't stand up to Martinez now if he ever could have. The biggest money fight that is reasonable is Cotto though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
It will be interesting see iguys like Pirog and Korobov can step up soon.
I'm somewhat surprised you think he beats a prime Pavlik, the fight was actually a lot closer than most people seem to remember with Martinez only pulling clear down the final stretch. He didn't win by more than three rounds on any card. And that was a lackluster, mentally weak, alcoholic Pavlik struggling to make weight with all kinds of problems outside the ring. I think Pavlik on his best night knocks him out. I wouldn't even count him out in a rematch now if he could make weight, which I doubt.
The Dzinziruk win isn't as impressive as people go on like either. A virtually unknown fighter who was fighting outside his own weight class and had no big wins on his resume, unless you count outpointing Daniel Santos and Joel Julio as great wins. He was an ok opponent but no better than Andre Ward or Carl Froch dominating Felix Sturm which I would absolutely expect them to do. If Sturm fought Carl Froch would you expect it to be comeptitive? I sure wouldnt'.
I don't want to sound like I'm hating on the guy, his record is decent, I just don't think it's exceptional, or even that impressive compared to the other fighters I have mentioned.
I like Pavlik. He was a solid fighter when he was on. I just think that he will always have problems with boxers who move and are a little slick. Sergio Martinez has that. But, it's a decent debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Abraham is he was healthy at 160 would be a fun fight to see. I sorta think we saw the best of Abraham a few years ago and unfortunately, we never got to see Abraham v. Pavlik at 160 in their primes. I'm not sure he can get to 160 in a healthy way anymore and he is too small for 168.
Korobov has let me down a little bit - mostly because I feel like he'd be further along than he is by now, which puts doubts in my mind that he really is as good as they say. Top Rank is too good at matchmaking to not be moving him at a snail's pace for a reason unless there is some internal issue we don't know about.
Sturm at 160 is a good fight. I'll keep saying it. And Geale may be too. Other than them, I think Golovkin could be a great fighter on the way up. He has a good test in front of him with N'Jikam this fall.
Pirog maybe squandered a chance at fame more than I've witnessed in a while. To go from a shocking HBO KO, to obscurity in a year, is impressive.
I dunno if this has been said to but the 5 or so fights before the last 5 arent exactly glittering with strong opposition either
He is a top boxer, parhaps top 15 or 10 in the world pound for pound definately, a great tallent
but he definately is over rated if people are putting him 3rd and some are even putting him second, thats above pac or floyd?
anyway, Cummon Darren
We're going to have to agree to disagree. However, before I go further, in the sake of progressing with the argument, what fights would you like to see Sergio take to merit his p4p ranking?
I'll explain why people rank Sergio so high, first in what he has done himself, and then in relation to what other people have done. At the time that Paul Williams fought Sergio Martinez he was a top 5 p4p fighter and dubbed the most "feared fighter on the planet" and at the time he fought Kelly Pavlik he was the lineal middleweight champion. Add to that the facts that he is a multi-division champ and the serious manner in which he dispels his opponents and you and you have the reasons why he is ranked as high as he is.
Now, you may say that Kelly Pavlik wasn't all that NOW, but at the time, he was perceived to be a beast. He had only lost to Bernard Hopkins and that was at 10 pounds above the weight class he ha fought his career at. Pavlik had recently destroyed the best middleweight in the world in Jermain Taylor. Now, since then, Kelly Pavlik has lost his career in the bottle and hasn't looked as good, but at the time, without 20/20 hindsight, he was looked at as a beast. Go read articles about Kelly Pavlik two years ago and you'll see that is evident.
You'll find the same about Paul Williams. Without 20/20 hindsight, when Sergio fought Paul Williams, Paul had destroyed Winky Wright, Carlos Quintana and Verno Phillips. He looked like a beast. Now, Sergio may have destroyed Paul Williams in the same way that Joe Calzaghe destroyed Lacy because Paul Williams hasn't looked the same since.
Sergiy Dzinziruk, by boxing heads, was known to be the best at 154. Cotto may be ranked #1, but most people believed that Sergiy deserved that. Angulo and Williams declined to fight him when given the chance. Sergio dominated and destroyed the top 154 in the world.
Lastly, You mentioned Sergio Martinez in the same breadth as Marquez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Calzaghe, etc., the best fighters of the last decade. That is a compliment in and of itself. I agree he isn't there yet and he may never be. He's already 36 in any event. Have no fear, he won't be top 2 for very long, as soon as Mayweather beats Ortiz, he'll be number 3.[/QUOTE]
Great points!