Lyle Fitzimmons alledges Joe Fraizer does NOT belong in the Hall of Fame

Culled from Canastota: Five Who Should Lose Hall Pass - Boxing News


Are you kidding me ?

I didn't even get to the part where he mentions Joe Frazier. I sincerely hope these "boxing writers" aren't getting paid, does the head in that these types could actually gain from such trash.

but who did Frazier beat besides Ali and then got whipped twice by Ali after that? OK Jimmy Ellis, Quarry, Bugner....he got blasted by Foreman TWICE. Not really sure off of the MSG 1971 fight with Ali if that performance is enough to get him in the Hall. Its like Gene Tunney beating Dempsey twice.......thats about all he ever did, so does it get him in?

"whipped" not sure thats the term here since I usually take that as one dude dominated, and really if frazier got whipped then so did ali...

Ha i agree

Joe Frazier is the most overrated HW in history

He is over rated because he took part in an over rated era and won one fight of any note

he was around in the right place at the right time

he would struggle to become cruiserweight world champ nowadays

Joe was the undisputed champion during Ali’s exile and he beat some good fighters. He won the greatest ever fight in history and should be respected.

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Originally Posted by Master

Joe was the undisputed champion during Ali’s exile and he beat some good fighters. He won the greatest ever fight in history and should be respected.

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yeah i came back around on this 50% now: Joe surely left an indelible mark for the good of the sport.

I actually agree with Lyle that Frazier is overrated (as are a lot of the old timers). He beat a wack of solid fighters, but like Ken Norton, he is primarily known for his work with Ali. I believe he deserves to be in the hall, because as flawed and limited as he was, he fought and beat the best of his time (including the best of ALL time) and his only losses came to the #1 of all time and Foreman (who routinely shows up in top 5 of all time lists).

I think there are a LOT of guys who are overrated as hell because of their tangos with the greats, and I contend that if you went through the hall objectively, you could find 20 or so guys who are less deserving than Joe Frazier.

The biggest example of this IMO is Jake Lamotta. Tough as hell, skilled, solid boxer, former world champ. Sure. But he's known for beating the G.O.A.T, who just happened be 15lbs smaller than Jake. Not to mention the fact he was thoroughly whipped the next 5 fights.

Without Foreman and Ali he would have heldthe title for several years and defences - more than Jack Dempsey or Lennox Lewis.

With Foreman and Ali as opponents, theres no way Marciano, Lennox Lewis or Jack Dempsey would have held onto their titles. Possibly Joe Louis has immunity to that argument.

Many would argue that Joe Fraizer should have won the second fight with Ali as well.

So he lost to Ali and George Foreman ?

Other than that he beat everyone else in his era. That is surely hall of fame worthy.

A lot more deserving than Ingemar Johanson may he R.I.P.

I think one of the only real things you can say against JF is that his style of absorbing opponents punches meant he was destined for a short career, so that some time after 30 years of age that would catch up with him and he'd need to start fighting once a year (Jack Dempsey style) or fight old timers (Marciano did that late on) to lengthen his title reign. Otherwise sharp guys like Holmes would have wrecked him.

Just looking at the guys he annihilated -

Olympic Championship finalists
Jimmy Ellis!
Bob Foster!! the man himself!
Quarry! CHuvalo!

who the hell would crush all them in the past 20 years? Tyson maybe.

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Originally Posted by RohanKnight

I think one of the only real things you can say against JF is that his style of absorbing opponents punches meant he was destined for a short career, so that some time after 30 years of age that would catch up with him and he'd need to start fighting once a year (Jack Dempsey style) or fight old timers (Marciano did that late on) to lengthen his title reign. Otherwise sharp guys like Holmes would have wrecked him.

Just looking at the guys he annihilated -

Olympic Championship finalists
Jimmy Ellis!
Bob Foster!! the man himself!
Quarry! CHuvalo!

who the hell would crush all them in the past 20 years? Tyson maybe.

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Yeah Bob Foster was just way too small. He got it BAD. REAL BAD.

Brockton how the fuck are you going to forget about Harry Greb most people have him top 10 atg. I mean Gene Tunney lost to him once and went on to win a lot more against him. Also he did not just beat Jack, Gene Tunney won almost every single round he fought against him. So beating a top 10 atg and atg heavyweight is nothing, not to mention being the LHW and HW champ and avenging his only lose as well. Anyhow on Joe Frazier i think he deserves his spot and only lost to great heavies and beat everyone else.

Fitzimmons is a Scamboogah

Fitzsimmons is spot on. Too bad he didn't include Johannsson, McGuigan, and (one of my all time favorites) Little Red Lopez. I can't even make much argument for Billy Graham and Fritzie Zivic (two more of my favorites) being in there. Or Sonny Liston or Floyd Patterson, or Jersey Joe Walcott. And just wait until Gatti and Ward and Jessie James Leija get inducted, and they will since they have, I believe, mandatory annual induction numbers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JaJFjq00ro

What people are forgetting is that back in the 70's the Heavyweight Champion Of The World was known world wide as a sporting identity. Ask your average man in the street today this question "who is Vitali Klitschko"? The answer will not come as easily as the look of bewilderment you will get for asking it. Anybody interested in sport knew who Ali was, they also knew who Joe Frazier was, who George Foreman was. The Madison Square Garden fight with Ali was probably the most anticipated fight in history, it was also a world wide sporting event, so was the Rumble In the Jungle. You didn't have to be a boxing fan to know who these guys were. Joe Frazier was a sporting personality not only in the ring, but out of it. Just who was Ali taunting all those years? Frazier had some great wins, he was undefeated and was the first man to beat Ali. He lost to big George in 1973, tell me who wouldn't have on that night? This unnecessary criticism of Joe Frazier is puzzling, he is from a different era, an era when being the Heavyweight Champion Of The World actually meant something.

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Originally Posted by Hulk

Many would argue that Joe Fraizer should have won the second fight with Ali as well.

So he lost to Ali and George Foreman ?

Other than that he beat everyone else in his era. That is surely hall of fame worthy.

A lot more deserving than Ingemar Johanson may he R.I.P.

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Hulk i don't know if you've seen 2nd fight bro, but Muhammad Ali clearly outboxed Joe Frazier in the 2nd fight. Not taking anything away from Joe Frazier i love the guy as a fighter, just saying that's all.

Not every Lyle can be as smart as me ;D

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Hulk

Many would argue that Joe Fraizer should have won the second fight with Ali as well.

So he lost to Ali and George Foreman ?

Other than that he beat everyone else in his era. That is surely hall of fame worthy.

A lot more deserving than Ingemar Johanson may he R.I.P.

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Hulk i don't know if you've seen 2nd fight bro, but Muhammad Ali clearly outboxed Joe Frazier in the 2nd fight. Not taking anything away from Joe Frazier i love the guy as a fighter, just saying that's all.

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Haven't watched the whole thing no. But, my Dad always says Fraizer got screwed on that decision.

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Originally Posted by Hulk

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Hulk

Many would argue that Joe Fraizer should have won the second fight with Ali as well.

So he lost to Ali and George Foreman ?

Other than that he beat everyone else in his era. That is surely hall of fame worthy.

A lot more deserving than Ingemar Johanson may he R.I.P.

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Hulk i don't know if you've seen 2nd fight bro, but Muhammad Ali clearly outboxed Joe Frazier in the 2nd fight. Not taking anything away from Joe Frazier i love the guy as a fighter, just saying that's all.

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Haven't watched the whole thing no. But, my Dad always says Fraizer got screwed on that decision.

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Ali won easily in fact he could have stopped Frazier early but somehow the ref stopped the attack for some reason. The only controversy was that Ali was allowed to hold all fight and lean on Frasier which counted against Joe. The fight was not exciting as a result.

Stallone is in the hall of fame and some people believe its based on the frazier upbringing!

I think the hall of fame should be more than about a fighters record. Joe helped bring the sport of boxing to hights we will likley never see again. The first and third fights with Ali have gone down in legend and rightly so.

Joe was shorter than a lot of fighters, not exactly build for speed either, but he had heart and power.
If you put other fighters brains in Joe's body and went "right I want you to beat Geroge Foreman".
I bet they would get crushed too, remember Joe only weighed 205 pounds he's almost a cuiser in todays standards.

He deserves to be there and so do most of the others, its bitter of people to say otherwise.

...... And I think peanut butter is nasty . We all have a right to be stupid in our own way I guess . Don't belong .... Geeeeezzzz

Certainly no expert on the old timers, but hell the first and third ali fights should be enough by themseleves almost. As someone mentioned they were broadcast worldwide something like a 100 countries, meaning my dad and grandpa might not know any other american boxers from that era but they sure as hell know ali and frazier.

One Thing that always confused me about Hall of Fame is what exactly is it for. I mean to some its place to put boxers that made a impact and to others they think place for only top of the crop should go.

Who the fuck is Lyle Fitzimmons? If Joe Frazier doesn't deserve to be in the BHOF, then 80% of the inductees don't either, Lyle Fitzimmons is an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Mar

...... And I think peanut butter is nasty . We all have a right to be stupid in our own way I guess . Don't belong .... Geeeeezzzz

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:lol: Oh come on Mar........ we can put another boxer's brains into Smokin Joe's body with a little catnip and ammonia concoction: I once heard Harold Lederman mention it!

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Joe was shorter than a lot of fighters, not exactly build for speed either, but he had heart and power.

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Learning new things is exciting.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Joe was shorter than a lot of fighters, not exactly build for speed either, but he had heart and power.

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Learning new things is exciting.

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Did you know he could not straighten his left arm?

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Joe was shorter than a lot of fighters, not exactly build for speed either, but he had heart and power.

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Learning new things is exciting.

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Did you know he could not straighten his left arm?

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No I didnt. I'll have to watch a bit of him now. Interesting. In a way therefore his left hook was always in punching position then.

There are a few people in the Hall that do not belong. But the bottom line is the HOF makes its money by all the induction ceremonies. I'm pretty sure we will see people like Morrison, Douglas, Swank or Eastwood in the future who should not be there either. But I have always thought Frazier was overrated and really shined because of Ali.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Joe was shorter than a lot of fighters, not exactly build for speed either, but he had heart and power.

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Learning new things is exciting.

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Did you know he could not straighten his left arm?

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No I didnt. I'll have to watch a bit of him now. Interesting. In a way therefore his left hook was always in punching position then.

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Yes that is why it was a damaging punch.