Bert Sugar on Mike Tyson, his legacy and chances against the Klitchko's

I think Klitchko.. at least Vlad wouldn't have had a good chance against Tyson.. his uppercuts would've taken his neck off!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxx60wk_JWU

Bert sure knows how to tell stories and be captivating and he's a very good boxing historian but he has the same problem as Lou Duva: he's putting the jewels of old way too high in the stack and can't be much objective.

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Originally Posted by Nameless

Bert sure knows how to tell stories and be captivating and he's a very good boxing historian but he has the same problem as Lou Duva: he's putting the jewels of old way too high in the stack and can't be much objective.

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different era fighters .. different rules applied ...
i believe that competition in the past was tougher.. there were more people boxing and they were boxing considerably more..

look how tough archie moore was, how many hundreds of power bombs he absorbed from Marciano and he was still standing after 8+ rounds. If Lewis or Klit absorbed even 1/2 of those it would be a carmine vingo story, sadly, for them. No dounbt the people were tougher back then, ITS ALL THE GMO FOODS, AND THE POLITICALLY-CORRECT LAWS, PEOPLE GOT WAY MORE SENSITIVE AND TOUCHY AND WEAK.

This twat pisses me off. He has to wear the panama hat and unlit cigar so people recognise him as the old twa off tv that talks shit.

He says Tyson had trouble with taller fighters?

Take a look at the scores for the Green, Tucker and Smith fights and tell me thats a fighter who was having trouble;D

Even unfit against Douglas he dropped him hard late in the fight. Against the Klitschkos if nothing else Mike knew how to get insidea and he would have kept up a good work rate and pushed them to at least a decision win. Neither like to work at a pace.

You could look at Lewis's record against Mercer, Mc Call, Rahman and Holyfield and say that he struggled with shorter men.

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This twat pisses me off. He has to wear the panama hat and unlit cigar so people recognise him as the old twa off tv that talks shit.

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dude relax a little ;)

Wlad and Vitali have better legacies, I think. The longer the fight went Tyson's chances decrease.

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Originally Posted by creationstory

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Originally Posted by Nameless

Bert sure knows how to tell stories and be captivating and he's a very good boxing historian but he has the same problem as Lou Duva: he's putting the jewels of old way too high in the stack and can't be much objective.

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different era fighters .. different rules applied ...
i believe that competition in the past was tougher.. there were more people boxing and they were boxing considerably more..

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That's the thing, not necessarily and it doesn't mean that the great of today wouldn't have performed well in the past. I don't see any reasons why the Klitschko wouldn't have had at least very good chances to become champion too, Vitali was a monster in his prime and is still excessively dangerous even past his best years, Wlad has power, size and a very sound technique on his side. I am not saying they would win everything but they sure would have very good chances afainst anybody. If Vitali could absorb Lewis best punches and keep going on, you can be sure that he could eat Tyson bombs too and keep rolling

flippin ek i agree with virtually everything he said

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Wlad and Vitali have better legacies, I think. The longer the fight went Tyson's chances decrease.

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I dont know weather i agree with this tho, well it depends what you mean by lagacy, in 30 years time the average man will still be raving about the tyson period but only really boxing fans will know anything about klits era

just like with the holmes era now, the average man knows Ali and Tyson and nothing in between

p.s. its not that ali and tyson would beat the klits, i dont think they would stand much chance, its just their eras and styles and charactors were miles more exciting and worth remembering

Bert Oh Bert what a plank.

The heavyweight division is do do, you just cannot say anything else about the division and level of opposition.

finally watched the bloody Ssugar clip. What a piece he is.......but I like him. Aand he's got it basically right.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

finally watched the bloody Ssugar clip. What a piece he is.......but I like him. Aand he's got it basically right.

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You WOULD think that wouldn't you :vd:

"Mike Tyson's uppercuts would take their heads off"....yes, because the Klitschko's are ALWAYS getting hit with uppercuts. Bert is a caricature of what boxing pundits used to be, he's got the fedora, the stogey, and the raspy voice but the ONLY thing that matters to him is the past.

How would Wlad or Vitali fair vs Tyson? Objectively they seem pretty even match ups with the height and reach and weight going decisively in favor of the Klitschko's. True Mike Tyson could slip and counter his way inside with the best of them but the Cus D'Mato style had its flaws....namely tall fighters who controlled distance and sure Tyson got passed a right good few decent fighters like that, but its not as if he breezed his way through his entire career. Vitali I'm certain beats Tyson, the man never give up the body, he's extremely hard to catch flush and even when you do he won't go down. Wladimir has a 50/50 shot vs Tyson, 90/10 after round 5 just because once Wlad gets in rhythm he is a punisher, he makes guys quit and ....well truth be told, in those situations Tyson quit. The Klitschko's won't get their dues til after they retire and maybe then people will realize how damn great those guys are.

There's not 1 guy that Tyson beat that Wlad or Vitali couldn't beat.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

finally watched the bloody Ssugar clip. What a piece he is.......but I like him. Aand he's got it basically right.

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You WOULD think that wouldn't you :vd:

"Mike Tyson's uppercuts would take their heads off"....yes, because the Klitschko's are ALWAYS getting hit with uppercuts. Bert is a caricature of what boxing pundits used to be, he's got the fedora, the stogey, and the raspy voice but the ONLY thing that matters to him is the past.

How would Wlad or Vitali fair vs Tyson? Objectively they seem pretty even match ups with the height and reach and weight going decisively in favor of the Klitschko's. True Mike Tyson could slip and counter his way inside with the best of them but the Cus D'Mato style had its flaws....namely tall fighters who controlled distance and sure Tyson got passed a right good few decent fighters like that, but its not as if he breezed his way through his entire career. Vitali I'm certain beats Tyson, the man never give up the body, he's extremely hard to catch flush and even when you do he won't go down. Wladimir has a 50/50 shot vs Tyson, 90/10 after round 5 just because once Wlad gets in rhythm he is a punisher, he makes guys quit and ....well truth be told, in those situations Tyson quit. The Klitschko's won't get their dues til after they retire and maybe then people will realize how damn great those guys are.

There's not 1 guy that Tyson beat that Wlad or Vitali couldn't beat.

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Sanders put Vitali down!

Both Vitali and Wladimir panic when pressured they just javent had the competition. Wladimir doesnt come on strong his opponents lose heart. Thete os a misconception about Mike that he lost fpcis as a fight wore on. Like I said, look at the Tucker fight, a man that is more skilled than either Klitschko and watch how Mike beat him very comfortably. Who have either Klitschko beaten that is as good as Tyson? They havent and wont because the skill isnt out there. Vitali had his chance against an old Lewis.

Tyson beats both brothers comfortably let's not overate these guys due to lack of competition! Both brothers are very good however no point debating that anymore but neither beats tyson.

here's comes Lyle spreading his Limburger cheese on another thread.

OK so you're comparing Wlad to Tony Tucker? You think that is a valid comparison?

Sanders caught Vitali flush and the ref ruled it a slip, but its erroneous because Vitali stopped him anyway.

Its a hypothetical match up and just based on styles the Klitschko's have exactly what you would want to beat a fighter like Tyson with and perhaps vice versa. I'm basing my decision on what I've seen, I've seen Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis hammer Tyson and the Klitschko's are far better than Douglas perhaps slightly under Lewis, but they are in the group that would have a good shot vs Tyson.

The funny thing is the people who make excuses for Tyson always cite his poor training for the Douglas fight, but that's a flaw of the fighter, if he didn't train properly that's on him and it shouldn't be an excuse.

Yes of course its Mike Tysons fault im not disputing that but at the dame time not one person seriously believes that Douglas would have beaten Mike at his best. Douglas wouldnt have beaten the version of Holmes that Mike did, I also doubt he would have beaten Spinks.

The only fight who had the confidence to put combinations together and had any speed that Wladimir faced smashed him inside 2 rounds. Look how cautious he fought Haye. He was very wary of Hayes speed and power and would have shit himself as the ref was giving instructions while Tyson glared at him;D.

Vitali may not have shit himself while Tyson glared at him but as soon as Mike started landing and Vitali couldnt catch him back he would then have had the same fearing for his life look that he had when Sanders was catching him near the end of the first in their fight as he was staggering backwards and holding for dear life(the same look Audley has when any sort of punch is coming his way).

Mike would have been able to keep that up until he stopped Vitali because he wouldnt have been a retired fat golf player;D

Tyson one of the metal weak fighters i have ever seen i give him good chance to beat bothe brothers. But in saying that if he could not knock Vitali out quick he be pretty fucked to be honest with you.

As for Tyson being prime this what i always found to be quite funny. When he lost to Holyfeild he just destroyed Frank Bruno faster then eh did in so called prime then got destroyed by Evander Holyfield.

Wlad had to stalk Haye down for 12 rounds and people routinely confuse "being smart" with "being cautious"...Would Wlad have been smart if he just walked right into one of Haye's haymakers? NO! So Wlad stuck to his game plan (which has never not worked) pump the jab, look for openings, and don't get caught in return.

And who says Vitali "wouldn't be able to find Tyson"?!?! If anything Tyson would have a hard time finding Vitali, Sanders caught him as did Lennox but those guys are significantly taller than Tyson.

Bobbing and weaving doesn't mean much if you can't get passed the jab. The guys that use head movement to work to the inside of the Klitschko's are routinely tied up, out maneuvered, or walked into punches.

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The guys that use head movement to work to the inside of the Klitschko's are routinely tied up, out maneuvered, or walked into punches.

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Utter depravity. Guys like Frazier and Marciano who really knew how to get inside, the K bros have never fought. All they have fought are cowards that, after bobbing a wee-bit and trying to get inside a wee-bit, and then tasting a couple nice steelhammer counter shots on the way in, GAVE THE FOCK UP AND DECIDED IT WAS SAFER ON THE OUTSIDE. CAN ANYONE SEE MARCIANO OR FRAZIER DECIDING TO STAY ON THE OUTSIDE?
PL-EEEEEASE!......

We're not talking about Frazier or Marciano we're talking about Tyson a guy who DID give up, a guy who DID get frustrated in the ring. I don't hate on Tyson but it must be said that for as intimidating as he was he was a psychologically weak fighter. Frazier and Rocky are 2 of the mentally toughest fighters there have ever been, Tyson didn't have that in him. Tyson never got up to beat someone, he never scored a KO when he was down on points, and when the momentum of a fight was taken from him he caved. Hell of a fighter, but that flaw of being psychologically weak is a big flaw.

to summarise

the klits are very good boxers and would probably be in the top 3 best hws in history but they would both also be in the top 2 least exciting significant HW world champs in history too

Im not sure bert was actually trying to say that exactly but thats what i got out of it

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Wlad had to stalk Haye down for 12 rounds and people routinely confuse "being smart" with "being cautious"...Would Wlad have been smart if he just walked right into one of Haye's haymakers? NO! So Wlad stuck to his game plan (which has never not worked) pump the jab, look for openings, and don't get caught in return.

And who says Vitali "wouldn't be able to find Tyson"?!?! If anything Tyson would have a hard time finding Vitali, Sanders caught him as did Lennox but those guys are significantly taller than Tyson.

Bobbing and weaving doesn't mean much if you can't get passed the jab. The guys that use head movement to work to the inside of the Klitschko's are routinely tied up, out maneuvered, or walked into punches.

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Would Tyson have fought like that? Would Haye have got out of the first round with Tyson? Would Haye have talked so much shit for a few years and been so eager to get in their with Tyson?

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Originally Posted by ross

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Wlad had to stalk Haye down for 12 rounds and people routinely confuse "being smart" with "being cautious"...Would Wlad have been smart if he just walked right into one of Haye's haymakers? NO! So Wlad stuck to his game plan (which has never not worked) pump the jab, look for openings, and don't get caught in return.

And who says Vitali "wouldn't be able to find Tyson"?!?! If anything Tyson would have a hard time finding Vitali, Sanders caught him as did Lennox but those guys are significantly taller than Tyson.

Bobbing and weaving doesn't mean much if you can't get passed the jab. The guys that use head movement to work to the inside of the Klitschko's are routinely tied up, out maneuvered, or walked into punches.

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Would Tyson have fought like that? Would Haye have got out of the first round with Tyson? Would Haye have talked so much shit for a few years and been so eager to get in their with Tyson?

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Well first off, the styles of Wlad and Tyson are very different and built to be effective in different ways.

Yes Haye would have talked himself up, he'd do it vs anyone that's his M.O., he's an asshole its what he does.

Would Tyson have operated the way Wlad did? No because Tyson's style wasn't based on what Wlad's style is based on.

Would Haye survive at least a round...maybe, it would depend on how big the ring was.

Haye was by no means "eager" to fight Wlad.

How does a Haye-Tyson fight end? A mid-early rounds KO, when Haye is looking to the ref in sympathy for being "fouled" Tyson would forearm him in the throat and then rip off a 3 punch combo sending the bewildered Haye to the canvas for a 5 count, stumbling up at 6, falling down again at 7, and down one more time at 9 as the ref waves the fight off.

You wouldn't expect Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey to finish fighters the same way would you?

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Originally Posted by Mr140

As for Tyson being prime this what i always found to be quite funny. When he lost to Holyfeild he just destroyed Frank Bruno faster then eh did in so called prime then got destroyed by Evander Holyfield.

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The Tyson that first fought Bruno was very poor, and was going through a lot of crap at home. Bruno was also shit scared the second time.

Lyle has Delusions of grandeur regarding the Klits inside and outside of boxing these guys will never be held to the level and standard of Tyson FACT.

Master like so many others always with the excuses for Tyson i always find it funny. I am not as critical on Tyson as i used to be i do feel he belongs in the top heavies and that makes him atg. But i have to put him tad lower on the list because his mental stat is quiet weak for top fighter. I mean he loses to a 40 1 in Douglas then goes on to do ok only to get pounded again by Holyfield i mean people say he was out of prime i find that funny. I mean look at all the other greats Robinson, Holyfeild, Lewis, Duran, Hearns, Leonard and many others out of there prime or weight kept going and had alot more problems. Just goes to show that the game is more mental then anything else and if you going to keep going you got to have the balls to do it i guess or you cant win.

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Originally Posted by piye

Lyle has Delusions of grandeur regarding the Klits inside and outside of boxing these guys will never be held to the level and standard of Tyson OPINION.

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...There, fixed that for you

My own two cents on this:

First, I think Tyson gets a bum rap about being mentally weak. Where does that come from? Maybe later in his career, after he was going downhill. But was he mentally weak before? I think not. He was getting pummeled by Douglas and didn't quit. He got pummeled by Holyfield and didn't quit. (Well... he DID bite the guy's ear off, which was sort of quitting, by getting disqualified, but oh well).

Second, as objectively as I can... I think Tyson may not have gotten past Vitali. The size difference, Vitali's granite chin... those factors would've been key. But Wladimir? I think Tyson takes his head off. The argument that the Klitschkos don't get hit with uppercuts? Who have they EVER faced that throws the same murderous uppers that Tyson used to throw? No one. Take my word for it. Prime Tyson would've bobbed and weaved his way into Wladimir's guard, thrown some of those bombs, and gotten Wlad out of there in a hurry. Brewster and Sanders put him down.... and they were nowhere near Tyson's quality.

Tyson "quit" vs Holyfield because Evander was THE first top challenge Tyson fought that was in his prime.

Fighters who fight tall don't usually get caught with uppercuts, just my view.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Tyson "quit" vs Holyfield because Evander was THE first top challenge Tyson fought that was in his prime.

Fighters who fight tall don't usually get caught with uppercuts, just my view.

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Just left hooks and right hands.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Tyson "quit" vs Holyfield because Evander was THE first top challenge Tyson fought that was in his prime.

Fighters who fight tall don't usually get caught with uppercuts, just my view.

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Just left hooks and right hands.

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...Well its no time for hyperbole Master, if there's a punch the Klitschko's get repeatedly caught with and Tyson throws it then say it, but its not the uppercut.

[QUOTE=El Kabong;1020119]Tyson "quit" vs Holyfield because Evander was THE first top challenge Tyson fought that was in his prime.[QUOTE]

To be fair, I wouldnt have Tyson in HIS Prime at the time he fought Holyfield tho. If the Tyson that fought Bruno the first time faced Evander, then it have have been a different outcome.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Tyson "quit" vs Holyfield because Evander was THE first top challenge Tyson fought that was in his prime.

Fighters who fight tall don't usually get caught with uppercuts, just my view.

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Can't agree 100%. Lets remember Iron Michael fought his fucking ass off against Holyfield 9 months BEFORE the fight in which he quit. He certainly never gave up until the bitter end in that great great heavyweight brawl. their 1st fight Nov. 1996. He may have lost but he proved himself a true warrior in that fight. Got his head almost decapitated in the 10th I believe and came out for the 11th. Not many would have been able to continue.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Tyson "quit" vs Holyfield because Evander was THE first top challenge Tyson fought that was in his prime.

Fighters who fight tall don't usually get caught with uppercuts, just my view.

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Can't agree 100%. Lets remember Iron Michael fought his fucking ass off against Holyfield 9 months BEFORE the fight in which he quit. He certainly never gave up until the bitter end in that great great heavyweight brawl. their 1st fight Nov. 1996. He may have lost but he proved himself a true warrior in that fight. Got his head almost decapitated in the 10th I believe and came out for the 11th. Not many would have been able to continue.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Tyson "quit" vs Holyfield because Evander was THE first top challenge Tyson fought that was in his prime.

Fighters who fight tall don't usually get caught with uppercuts, just my view.

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What fighter have the Klits ever fought to that standard? Haye? Past prime Lewis? no one!

Vitali the guy who everyone overrates lost to Lewis, Lewis was there for the taking and Vitali still couldn't get the job done! Wladmir is the better of the two and has the better resume and his best win is Sam Peter or Haye.

Vitali quit when the going got tough against Byrd! Tyson V the Klits is a mismatch The Klits V Bruno is an epic fight.

Please, someone rational go through step by step how to beat a Prime Mike Tyson, just for shits and giggles explain it.


....Of course there will be the guys who assume there's just no way, no how, anything outside of running over Tyson with a tank would even slow the guy down much less lead to his defeat, but humor me. How does one stop the Cus D'Mato style?

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Please, someone rational go through step by step how to beat a Prime Mike Tyson, just for shits and giggles explain it.


....Of course there will be the guys who assume there's just no way, no how, anything outside of running over Tyson with a tank would even slow the guy down much less lead to his defeat, but humor me. How does one stop the Cus D'Mato style?

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The D'Amato style/system is a very good way to fight if you can master it. I remember Tyson went to train with Buddy MgGirt not long before he finished for good and Buddy said he found that the D'Amato style was surprising in that he thought it was all about the peekabo style (not getting hit) but infact it was about repositioning yourself for the next punch with each you throw. Also, Cus's other famous heavy Floyd Patterson was said by the man himself to be Alis most skillfull opponent.

Cus must have turned in his grave when he watched King creep in on the scene and slowly ruin his (imature and impressionable) masterpiece. If Mike had Cus for another ten years I think the first fiter to really trouble him would have been Bowe because I truly believe that the Tyson that worked for openings and bothered with defence would have been far too much for Holyfield. I also dont think Lewis would have becomema champ as early as he did but I do think Mike would have slowed down or lost interest at some point and a Douglas type fight would have been inevitable but much further down the road, probably a further 5 years and everyone would have been bitching (just like they do now) before hand that the division was dead because Mike had no real chalengers as even Larry Holmes a man he knocked out 7 years ealier is beating and pushing the top contenders.

That's all well and good ross, but the facts are that the Cus D'Mato style is a "burning the candle at both ends" style, its explosive, its flashy, but it doesn't last long. Patterson, Torres, Rooney, Mathis, Tyson, etc. their primes didn't last long AND they were all solved by similar fighters either #1 Solid boxer/punchers that used height and reach effectively or #2 guys more effective at bullying.

Mike Tyson was a dynamic fighter, a great fighter, but he wasn't invincible, he had flaws, he made mistakes.

Could he beat the Klitschko's? Sure, there's a solid possibility. Could the Klitschko's beat Tyson? Sure, there's a solid possibility.

Wlad and Vitali are big, strong, athletic, and they use their size to their advantage probably as good as anyone else has ever done. Do they have flaws and weaknesses? Sure, but they have shown IMO tougher psychological strength. Vitali did stop fighting vs Byrd due to injury but that aside they have an amazing record of fighting until they have been truly beaten when other fighters look for the "easy way out".

Its a hypothetical match, there's no sure winner, both sides have strong cases and I respect that...I just see it differently than most I guess. If the Klitschko's were from the US or the UK I'm betting they would receive a lot more credit.

Thanks for that post though ross, it was a good read and I do love that style. When I boxed I tried to mix Tyson's style with Lewis/Steward style and I had good success with both.