Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
So far he has gotten away more often than not with teaching his guys how to throw fast, strong combinations and having them use a lot of movement, but we've seen twice now in the past couple of months his two best fighters have all kinds of trouble in the inside or getting in range trying to do damage. Basically Freddie Roach uses modern amateur fighting, and implements a more fluid version of it to his fighters, but everyone is finally getting to see the areas of concern that I, among others, have seen all along. Both Amir Khan and Manny Pacquiao are amazing athletes with incredible endurance and speed, but their styles are not energy efficient at all, and that's because they have no idea how to control a fight on the inside, and they don't know how to slip punches effectively and consistently. They basically rattle off combinations from the outside and try to overwhelm their opponent with physical gifts, but on the inside they cover up, and while Manny has special power that he can catch guys with powerful shots from angles they don't see, Khan doesn't have that. He needs to learn how to fight on the inside, how to conserve his energy without being pummeled as he covers up. It's time Roach shows his guys how Pep, Whitaker, Hopkins, Mayweather, RJJ all effortlessly avoided punches while minimizing their energy output while doing so. Then how most of these guys were able to be right on the inside against someone and avoid punches while fighting and gaining better positioning so they could land sharp, effective punches on the inside while their opponent was helpless to land an effective shot because they had such bad positioning.
So far Freddie has made successful fighters while curtailing the nuances of boxing, but he needs to teach these guys everything there is about boxing. Or at the very least how to clinch a guy if they get to the inside ala Wladimir Klitschko.
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Good post Taeth I agree. The fact that Pacquiao and Khan were even able to hang 12 and make their fights so close attests to your point on athletecism imo, they were both up shits creek as far as the gameplans went.
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
If you look at Roach's top fighters, pac/Khan, they have the exact same defensive problems.. When they are tired and want to take a breather, they both lean against the ropes with their guards up, allowing their opponents to tee off on them.. It's a terrible habit and one of them is going to pay for it one day if they dont fix it. And this doesn't always happen on the ropes either.. They do it pretty much anywhere inside the ring when their opponents are throwing flurries at them...
Yep, Roach needs to teach real defense cuz it sucks.. Roach's accomplishment speaks for itself but Ive always thought he was a bit overrated.. He's lucky to have picked up a super talent like Pacman cuz i dont think he's ever built up a great fighter from scratch..
NACHO BERISTAIN is a much better trainer than he is...
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
So far he has gotten away more often than not with teaching his guys how to throw fast, strong combinations and having them use a lot of movement, but we've seen twice now in the past couple of months his two best fighters have all kinds of trouble in the inside or getting in range trying to do damage. Basically Freddie Roach uses modern amateur fighting, and implements a more fluid version of it to his fighters, but everyone is finally getting to see the areas of concern that I, among others, have seen all along. Both Amir Khan and Manny Pacquiao are amazing athletes with incredible endurance and speed, but their styles are not energy efficient at all, and that's because they have no idea how to control a fight on the inside, and they don't know how to slip punches effectively and consistently. They basically rattle off combinations from the outside and try to overwhelm their opponent with physical gifts, but on the inside they cover up, and while Manny has special power that he can catch guys with powerful shots from angles they don't see, Khan doesn't have that. He needs to learn how to fight on the inside, how to conserve his energy without being pummeled as he covers up. It's time Roach shows his guys how Pep, Whitaker, Hopkins, Mayweather, RJJ all effortlessly avoided punches while minimizing their energy output while doing so. Then how most of these guys were able to be right on the inside against someone and avoid punches while fighting and gaining better positioning so they could land sharp, effective punches on the inside while their opponent was helpless to land an effective shot because they had such bad positioning.
So far Freddie has made successful fighters while curtailing the nuances of boxing, but he needs to teach these guys everything there is about boxing. Or at the very least how to clinch a guy if they get to the inside ala Wladimir Klitschko.
Good post. It's their athleticism that allows them to get away with it. They train and know gameplans not boxing, that's why they struggle once a fighter doesn't do what they expected.
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Good opinion. Good pointers there Taeth.
You're basically asking Roach to make his fighters to give boring performance just to conserve energy.
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
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Originally Posted by
:::PSL:::
Good opinion. Good pointers there Taeth.
You're basically asking Roach to make his fighters to give boring performance just to conserve energy.
Wasnt this on the "things people say who have low boxing IQ's" thread? I think wwhat he's asking for is a smart gameplan
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Onix
Quote:
Originally Posted by
:::PSL:::
Good opinion. Good pointers there Taeth.
You're basically asking Roach to make his fighters to give boring performance just to conserve energy.
Wasnt this on the "things people say who have low boxing IQ's" thread? I think wwhat he's asking for is a smart gameplan
lol Dont expect too much from a pactard..
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Onix
Quote:
Originally Posted by
:::PSL:::
Good opinion. Good pointers there Taeth.
You're basically asking Roach to make his fighters to give boring performance just to conserve energy.
Wasnt this on the "things people say who have low boxing IQ's" thread? I think wwhat he's asking for is a smart gameplan
lol Dont expect too much from a pactard..
I happen to find constant clinching as boring gameplan, dumbfuck.
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Sometimes you should clinch, Pacquiao could clinch in certain spots and still look exciting with his combinations, but you see him getting cramps while being in the best shape of his life, but he honestly is getting older, and if he doesn't adapt he will be screwed in a few years. If he had better stand in the pocket defense I think it would help him use way less excessive footwork, Lampley was talking about the amazing things Pacquiao was doing in the ring, but his footwork was often letting him land punches that weren't significant because Marquez could still see him coming in from so far away. If Pacquiao's opponent cover's up then he really excels because he is so accurate and has so much power which is what Freddie has been building, if they cover up then by the time he's done punching he is out of their range, but if they uses footwork range from the onset then Pacquiao becomes more hesitent because he doesn't know how to walk a guy down. It's either explosive or nothing. Look how far away Marquez was able to keep him compared to guys like Clottey, Cotto, even Margarito. They were foolish enough to stand in his power range expecting their size to be enough to handle his punches. Look how much worse his output was against Mosley and Marquez when they used just a little lateral backwards movement. I was expecting MOsley to come forward more with his cross, but he got caught by a hard punch he didn't see in the third round which shut him down for the rest of it, but he also caused a lot of tactical problems for Manny.
Basically Manny doesn't have the nuances to walk in on a guy, and he really should practice coming in like JCC during sparring even if he wouldn't fight completely like that in a fight. Or how Oscar did against Floyd, it's clear to me that Manny has always charged in, but he really doesn't need to, there were times where if he was a little more comfortable a step or two in against Marquez where he still had plenty of time to react to what marquez was throwing that he could have picked Juan Manuel apart with his speed, and he would have landed much harder blows more consistently. Also he wouldn't come in so fully and thus he would be able to get back out more readily, and he could use more upperbody movement while doing so.
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Roach is way overrated. Like he says himself, he is nothing without the gift of his fighters. Khan is the same as he has always been and Manny's improvements are nothing more than a fighter who no longer drains himself.
They are good fighters, but Roach himself doesn't make fighters. They are already developed when they come to him. Tyson, Toney, Pac etc, already decent and no changes made at all.
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Roach is way overrated. Like he says himself, he is nothing without the gift of his fighters. Khan is the same as he has always been and Manny's improvements are nothing more than a fighter who no longer drains himself.
They are good fighters, but Roach himself doesn't make fighters. They are already developed when they come to him. Tyson, Toney, Pac etc, already decent and no changes made at all.
Spot on!
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
In the case of Toney or Tyson you can even argue that Roach was poor and let his fighters get away with poor conditioning.
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
In the case of Toney or Tyson you can even argue that Roach was poor and let his fighters get away with poor conditioning.
Agreed, I always wondered what was up with Roach training Toney for the time he did, seemed like a silly match. James had forgotten more about the sport than almost any active trainer let alone Freddie Roach, you'd think he would've just needed someone to keep him in shape and motivated...
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Good thread - Pretty much what I echoed in another thread.
I've seen Taeth catch a lot of shit here but he broke that down pretty damn accurately. Clearly knows his boxing
PSL, please..this is an adults conversation...:rolleyes:
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
Good thread! The problem is, he obviously is not capable of teaching another way. And to make matters more difficult for him...i don't think at this point of his career, a fighter like Pac could even adapt to fight another way. His comfort zone is jumping forward...that is what he has always done. Maybe he has refined certain things...but that is essentially who is as a fighter. Fighters like Mayweather and Marquez are TECHNICIANS. They are supremely SKILLED fighters with great technique and high fighting IQ's. They can adapt to different styles and situations. That comes from being trained the proper way from a young age. A trainer like Nacho Bernstein knows more about the craft of boxing than Freddie Roach does. I don't care if Roach learned under Futch...Freddie is incredibly overrated as a trainer. Honestly, even a guy like Roger Mayweather knows more about the art of boxing than Roach.
Re: Roach needs to start teaching real proffesional fighting
It's hard to say that because we haven't seen Roach craft a boxer from scratch to my knowledge. That's the true mark of a talented trainer. Another is gradually changing a fighter like he did with Pacquiao and his right hand, I actually always felt that Pacquiao had a terrific right hand, he just didn't use it enough, but he has improved in all aspects, except how he comes it.
You are talking about Marquez being amazing at craft, but it tactics that held him close to Manny not superior technique, Manny was in better balance, threw less wild punches, and was much more solid on his feet in general, it's just when he comes in that it's always jumping in, Marquez has other flaws, like he doesn't catch punches with his hands worth shit, but he has a great chin and he moves his head to lessen the damager of punches, but Manny IMO showed better defense as well, he just wasn't able to adjust as well as Marquez. He usually just does the same thing and guys are so overwhelmed they don't make adjustments, and for all the things Marquez wasn't doing as well as PAcquiao, he adjusted better. He found his range easier because he wasn't leaping in the same way as Manny.
Floyd has masterful technique in some things, but in others not as much. Manny does things offensively that Floyd wouldn't dream of doing, and he throws his cross from way too far out to get much power on it, when he punches he often falls in after his punches, which stops his opponent from punching back, but also stops him from following up with combinations. He doesn't really dig in with his hooks the way that he could. Somestimes with his shoulder roll he gets himself in really fucked positions, but he is really great at adjusting and getting himself set again. He has great instincts and body awareness. It's that he's perfect that his record is, it's that he does more things better than anyone else. His +/- is higher than other guys if you add up all their qualities. Pacquiao has a lot going for him as does Amir Khan, but there things they need to change.
Watch the small changes Cotto made against MArgarito, he wasn't baked off quite the same way all the time, and when he stood his ground he was landing much harder shots. If I was Amir Khan I would want to learn all the subtle nuances on the inside because why wouldn't you? It's like an MMA guy mastering one thing, but leaving everything else at a low level. Khan has a lot going for him with his speed and combinations, but it's about when and where he uses them that matters, and when he isn't using them what is he doing to stop his opponent from bullrushing him.
