I'm curious what everyone thinks.
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I'm curious what everyone thinks.
I thought ward looked fantastic on Saturday. And bearing in mind he was in with one of the top men in the decision makes his performance all the more impressive.
Wether he's 'great' is probably too early to judge at this stage but he certainly looked well on his way to becoming great.
Agreed. This poll needs an option for "Maybe. It is way too early to tell." He's not experienced enough to have proven greatness but he certainly isn't out of the running.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl9234
If he holds down the division for the next 6-7 years (including beating Bute) or goes up to LHW, cleans it out (including beating Dawson, who I think is the #1 toughest opponent for him), and rules there for a number of years, then this question will be appropriate.
I can't vote for any of the listed options.
Beating froch makes him great.
I think you have to say he's great.
Already he's beaten two Calzaghe opponents in Bika and Kessler more decisively than Joe did, he's dominated Carl Froch, Artur Abraham and Allen Green too.
I believe his opposition in absolute terms is better than Sergio Martinez and Nonito Donaire, I rate guys like Kessler and Froch p4p better than Darchinyan, Montiel, Williams, Pavlik etc.
I don't mean acomplishments here I mean literally. A 12 Kessler beats a 12 stone Montiel, Darchinyan or Williams imo if they were all the same size. Better fighter.
I'm a big fan of Ward.
I should clarify I'm not saying he's an all time great yet, of course not, but I absolutely think he's a great in the current era and a top 5 p4p fighter.
So far so good, he has beaten all the top opponents that got in front of him and these were the elite of the division. Based on that, I'd say yes, he's a great fighter.
great as a legend? not yet. But he sure does have the potential
I would say so, but 'greatness' is pretty subjective most of the time.
I voted for the second option.
No i think he's bit overrated at the moment actually, he's been a bit lucky the fighter's he fought are great stylistic match ups for him slow plodders like Froch, Abraham, average fighters like Green, and Sakio Bika who Lucian Bute beat more convincingly as he did with Edison Miranda.
Credit for the Mikkel Kessler win but i think he's overrated aswell, and i don't think he's been the same fighter since the Joe Calzaghe fight. I'd like to see him in with someone like Dirrell, Bute, fighter's who are just as fast and dangerous.
Sorry but no way is he a great fighter at the moment in my eyes, has he got the tools to be one ? yes for certain but let's wait until he fights someone like Dirrell, Bute, then lets have this conversation.
For now he's good fighter with a couple of good wins, but as i said i think he is a bit lucky he didn't have to meet fighters like Dirrell, Bute, even Taylor who i think stylistically causes him problems.
Yes Ward is certainly not "Great" just yet but I believe that he is the fastest growing and most potential candidate to reach great in the coming years. I just dont see him being defeated, no Bute's no Dirrell brothers can defeat this guy and I believe within the next three years he will earn a spot in the top 5 p4p rankings. Certainly on his way to the top, I said this once he dismantled mikkelQuote:
Originally Posted by Carl9234
I would say Ward is on the cusp,or better put like said earlier Ward has the tools to be Great,but in A effort to not cheapin the term "Great" it is too early to call him Great,..Ward seems to be A humble Guy and would probably say the same himself.
The morning after the fight I posted this on the fight sticky thread
"In the early hours of Sunday morning, Carl Froch was comprehensively beaten by Andre Ward. His bravery and durability in withstanding a 12 round onslaught by a former Olympic gold medallist 7 years his junior can not be questioned. The Cobra was made to look sluggish, almost pedestrian at times by the slick American, a boxer whose greatest asset seems to be the ease with which he makes himself unhittable. The elusiveness of Ward was not the surprise on the night, it was his willingness and ability to stand and trade with Froch, forcing the old school warrior from Nottingham back against the ropes, turning his own vicious long game back on to the older man. Carl rallied late on and over a vintage 15 rounds he may well have caught up with a fading Ward, but it is 2011 and over a championship distance of 12 rounds the venom was drawn from the cobra's bite. The snap usually present in his punches, was nullified by Ward's excellent reflexes, and as a counter puncher relentlessly marching forward, it is the Californian man whose name will go down in the record books as holder of 3 belts and winner of the super 6 tournament. Pound for pound Ward has made a case to crash into the top 5, and if he continues to fight like he did against Froch it will just be a matter of time before his name is mentioned in tandem with greatness."
On reflection
He is a great fighter but not yet A Great. I find it difficult to call myself a fan because of his style and personality, but I cannot deny his technical ability, determination and heart. His problem maybe finding opposition against whom his greatness can be defined. After Bute, if and when that happens, who is really going to take him into the trenches without going up a division? He does bulldoze forward with his head, and due to a virtually non-existent personality outside the ring I can see him having problems building a fanbase on a par with his not inconsiderable achievements. I called him a chump before the fight and his comments "thanking the saints" who prayed for him really didn't do him any favours, but as a fighter he has shut my mouth. Being allowed to fight at home so much until Sunday raised a few doubts, but I think if he is to avoid a stalemate with Bute, they will both have to fight somewhere unfamiliar and that will answer a few more questions about each fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
Very well said by the way
but I don't know about you but Ward's Noble, non cocky antics outside of the ring is one of the main reasons I love Ward as a person and I think he is the perfect personality to represent America if people don't see that then they show complete arrogance, after all he arguably is the best American fighter right now below Floyd ,(perhaps in line are Hopkins Dawson etc) NOTE: I am just talking about why or why not one would like Ward's outside ring characteristics.
He is a humble winner and a good role model instead of his opposite (ala floyd burning 100 dollar bills and picking fights with the elderly)
We have to realize yeah he has a while to Prove to the "Public" that he is great but say what you want about him using his head and elbows during fights. To me that's absolutely nitpicking exactly the way people react to Mayweather and look at the similarities, they are both undefeated. To me Ward is better than Martinez and despite the facts I am deriving from the instincts of a man who is constantly trumping the odds and the belief that he will flourish very far against the odds again and again
But what in the World can you see in Ward's personality that makes you not want to be a fan?
He is the most Humble man in the sport.
During the stare down with Froch, Froch asked him whether or not Ward thought he himself was a great fighter and denied answering the question stating that "he was brought up not to talk about themselves and to let his actions speak for them self"
Well they are and even though the General Public don't think he is great, I believe that he is
and a few more victories in the 168 division will prove that.
Bute cant beat Ward
the guy does not know how to lose.
yeah most would say I am overrating this guy but I barely listen to these people who think drastically low of fighters who show just a tini tiny glimpse of vulnerability. Some people put Pac to #2 with his last fight and began to doubt Nonito when he did not finish Nervaez. I think thats absurd
I believe Ward is a great fighter but it will take time for people to realize his true power
so mark my words he will be "GREAT" One day
This, just about exactly. He's #1 in his weight class, and he's top 5 p4p. That's enough to qualify him as great. It remains to be seen whether he becomes and "all-time great."Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Agreed on this (and on everything else in your post -- very well said). I think his toughest potential fight is against Dawson at 175, easily. There's no one else at 168 or 175 who I think is even a 50/50 pick against him. (Excluding Hopkins, since they're not going to fight, but I'd favor the 27 year-old Ward over the 47 year-old version of B-Hop anyway -- not against the 35 year-old version of Hopkins though.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
I'd like to see Bute-Froch before seeing Bute-Ward. I think it's a more competitive and better action fight. Based on the current evidence, I think Ward dominates Bute. But I'd like to see Bute in there with Froch first to better size him up.
He's a very good fighter and he's on his way to greatness. If he beats Bute and then a Dirrell his case gets stronger, but it is a little to early yet. Dominate at 168 then success at light-heavy and its sealed imo
Crazy talk. Montiel is undoubtedly better competition than Kessler or Froch. The only question is whether, in retrospect, he was on the slide when Donaire caught him. But Montiel & Darchinyan at the time Donaire fought him is probably a little better than Kessler & Froch, IMO. The remainder of Ward's competition is better than the remainder of Donaire's though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I do agree that Martinez is overrated at #3. I think I'd make it PBF, Pac, Donaire, Ward, Martinez at this point.
Getting Donaire up to 126 to fight Gamboa and seeing Ward vs. Bute and then at 175 will answer a lot of questions.
Not sure how Martinez answers any questions given the lack of competition at 160 and his unwillingness to go to 168.
Yes he has the potentila to be a great fighter like Roy Jones and James Toney.
you dont have to be entertaining to be great
which in some ways is a pitty
I'd love to know what people were starting to say about Bernard Hopkins back when Roy Jones beat him.
I would love to see Ward fight Bute and Dirrell and even Dawson and Pascal and beyond! But to be honest Dirrell and Bute both have the tools to beat Ward however that's not to say they are capable of achieving more in their respective careers.
Like I've said before, if ward wants to, he could stick around for a loooong time.
I want to see Bute versus Froch first too before I size them up. It's too early to tell whether Ward would dominate Bute. What would you say are the main differences between Bute and Ward so far? (1) Ward has faced better opposition. Ward has faced and beat Froch and Kessler, dominating both, Bute hasn't fought either. (2) Against the same competition, Bute has looked better. Bute didn't lose a round against Bika, Ward was staggered in the twelfth. Bute got Miranda out fast, in the third round by KO; Miranda went the distance with Ward and won a few rounds on the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaAgreed on this (and on everything else in your post -- very well said). I think his toughest potential fight is against Dawson at 175, easily. There's no one else at 168 or 175 who I think is even a 50/50 pick against him. (Excluding Hopkins, since they're not going to fight, but I'd favor the 27 year-old Ward over the 47 year-old version of B-Hop anyway -- not against the 35 year-old version of Hopkins though.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
I'd like to see Bute-Froch before seeing Bute-Ward. I think it's a more competitive and better action fight. Based on the current evidence, I think Ward dominates Bute. But I'd like to see Bute in there with Froch first to better size him up.
Remember Kabrary Salem. He put Calzaghe down before Calzaghe took over. Yet, in his very next fight, Bute knocked him out in 8 and dominated him. Frankly, it's just too early to tell. I'm a big fan of Bute because I love the killer body shots and I like his exciting ko's. Clearly, I'm biased, but I'll admit that if Froch looks good against Bute, I overrated Bute. If Bute KO's Froch, we have a new #1 smw.
I reckon, one thing Ward won't have is the popularity and fanbase, and unlike Jones, can you imagine Ward being able to sell a PPV?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
If Showtime markets a Bute vs. Ward PPV, they'd better do the fight in Quebec, because it won't draw flies here in the States.
There are major talks of Bute-Froch at the moment, it's everywhere on the french sport networks, for the moment, negociation are one fight in Montreal in front of 15-20K persons (based on Bute's past fights) and a revenge fight signed for Nottingham. I am pretty sure that this fight is a sealed deal, it's been in the airs far too long and I wouldn'T be surprised if the in-between the fight and its revenge there wouldn't be a fight against the Danish Vicking to stir up another belt in the pot (admitting he'll win against Stieglitz)Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaAgreed on this (and on everything else in your post -- very well said). I think his toughest potential fight is against Dawson at 175, easily. There's no one else at 168 or 175 who I think is even a 50/50 pick against him. (Excluding Hopkins, since they're not going to fight, but I'd favor the 27 year-old Ward over the 47 year-old version of B-Hop anyway -- not against the 35 year-old version of Hopkins though.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
I'd like to see Bute-Froch before seeing Bute-Ward. I think it's a more competitive and better action fight. Based on the current evidence, I think Ward dominates Bute. But I'd like to see Bute in there with Froch first to better size him up.
I thought it was Montreal and then the very next fight - Nottingham?Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessThere are major talks of Bute-Froch at the moment, it's everywhere on the french sport networks, for the moment, negociation are one fight in Montreal in front of 15-20K persons (based on Bute's past fights) and a revenge fight signed for Nottingham. I am pretty sure that this fight is a sealed deal, it's been in the airs far too long and I wouldn'T be surprised if the in-between the fight and its revenge there wouldn't be a fight against the Danish Vicking to stir up another belt in the pot (admitting he'll win against Stieglitz)Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaAgreed on this (and on everything else in your post -- very well said). I think his toughest potential fight is against Dawson at 175, easily. There's no one else at 168 or 175 who I think is even a 50/50 pick against him. (Excluding Hopkins, since they're not going to fight, but I'd favor the 27 year-old Ward over the 47 year-old version of B-Hop anyway -- not against the 35 year-old version of Hopkins though.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
I'd like to see Bute-Froch before seeing Bute-Ward. I think it's a more competitive and better action fight. Based on the current evidence, I think Ward dominates Bute. But I'd like to see Bute in there with Froch first to better size him up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
Probably not, but when you get right down to it, isn't that what "prize fighting" is all about = entertainment? Who the fuck wants to watch fights that don't entertain you?
It's odd, I really don't find Ward un-entertaining.
Maybe the Green fight was a little teipd but I really enjoyed his fights with Kessler, Abraham, Bika, Miranda, Froch etc..
Ward seems to be gaining a bit of popularity, but he's still a grade "B" movie as far as entertainment. He lost me as being any kind of fan at all in the beginning of his career with that SOG bullshit, and that gang infested sewer of Oakland, California. I have zero interest in watching his fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
You're from East Texas and talking that kind of shit? I had to spend a week and a half in Beaumont once -- most depressing place I've ever been (and the smelliest).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWard seems to be gaining a bit of popularity, but he's still a grade "B" movie as far as entertainment. He lost me as being any kind of fan at all in the beginning of his career with that SOG bullshit, and that gang infested sewer of Oakland, California. I have zero interest in watching his fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
Oakland is a geographically big city. It's also 10 minutes from San Francisco (what do you have - Houston? LOL). There are big regional parks full of redwood trees and extremely wealthy areas with top restaurants, shops, great architecture, and beautiful bay views. The violence and gang stuff is totally limited to a few areas and is waaay overplayed by the media. If you didn't purposely venture into those areas, you'd have no idea it existed in Oakland.
Right now he's one of the top fighters out there, easily top 5 p4p. Greatness as in all time great he's not there yet but has the potential.
The Beaumont area is depressing, (Port Arthur is a fucking armpit) we don't really consider it a part of "East Texas", which by the way, can also be depressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWard seems to be gaining a bit of popularity, but he's still a grade "B" movie as far as entertainment. He lost me as being any kind of fan at all in the beginning of his career with that SOG bullshit, and that gang infested sewer of Oakland, California. I have zero interest in watching his fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
You're from East Texas and talking that kind of shit? I had to spend a week and a half in Beaumont once -- most depressing place I've ever been (and the smelliest).
Oakland is a geographically big city. It's also 10 minutes from San Francisco (what do you have - Houston? LOL). There are big regional parks full of redwood trees and extremely wealthy areas with top restaurants, shops, great architecture, and beautiful bay views. The violence and gang stuff is totally limited to a few areas and is waaay overplayed by the media. If you didn't purposely venture into those areas, you'd have no idea it existed in Oakland.
I have no doubt that, that region of California puts East Texas to shame in most ways, no argument there. F.W.I.W., given a choice, I probably wouldn't live in ET, but my business and family is here.
It just seems that much of what you see and hear about Oakland is the violence, drug and gang stuff, the media has reported things that convinced me that I wouldn't want to live there.
Make another poll of the guys in his division that have beaten him, or are better. No one on the list exactly. Ward is pretty good. If he's not then look at the list of guys under him. If he's not great then they must be garbage. Dude wins. Im not a huge fan of his but to take away from the guy is crazy.
Ok, fair enough. Just know that the media portrayal of Oakland is highly distorted and reflects the reality of only a few self-contained parts of the city. It's kind of like saying "New York City" is a scary, violent place because there are a few really bad parts of Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. I had my parents out recently and they were very surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe Beaumont area is depressing, (Port Arthur is a fucking armpit) we don't really consider it a part of "East Texas", which by the way, can also be depressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWard seems to be gaining a bit of popularity, but he's still a grade "B" movie as far as entertainment. He lost me as being any kind of fan at all in the beginning of his career with that SOG bullshit, and that gang infested sewer of Oakland, California. I have zero interest in watching his fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
You're from East Texas and talking that kind of shit? I had to spend a week and a half in Beaumont once -- most depressing place I've ever been (and the smelliest).
Oakland is a geographically big city. It's also 10 minutes from San Francisco (what do you have - Houston? LOL). There are big regional parks full of redwood trees and extremely wealthy areas with top restaurants, shops, great architecture, and beautiful bay views. The violence and gang stuff is totally limited to a few areas and is waaay overplayed by the media. If you didn't purposely venture into those areas, you'd have no idea it existed in Oakland.
I have no doubt that, that region of California puts East Texas to shame in most ways, no argument there. F.W.I.W., given a choice, I probably wouldn't live in ET, but my business and family is here.
It just seems that much of what you see and hear about Oakland is the violence, drug and gang stuff, the media has reported things that convinced me that I wouldn't want to live there.
Anyway, back on topic . . . .
Danm that was Brutal you killed itQuote:
Originally Posted by shzaOk, fair enough. Just know that the media portrayal of Oakland is highly distorted and reflects the reality of only a few self-contained parts of the city. It's kind of like saying "New York City" is a scary, violent place because there are a few really bad parts of Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. I had my parents out recently and they were very surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe Beaumont area is depressing, (Port Arthur is a fucking armpit) we don't really consider it a part of "East Texas", which by the way, can also be depressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWard seems to be gaining a bit of popularity, but he's still a grade "B" movie as far as entertainment. He lost me as being any kind of fan at all in the beginning of his career with that SOG bullshit, and that gang infested sewer of Oakland, California. I have zero interest in watching his fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
You're from East Texas and talking that kind of shit? I had to spend a week and a half in Beaumont once -- most depressing place I've ever been (and the smelliest).
Oakland is a geographically big city. It's also 10 minutes from San Francisco (what do you have - Houston? LOL). There are big regional parks full of redwood trees and extremely wealthy areas with top restaurants, shops, great architecture, and beautiful bay views. The violence and gang stuff is totally limited to a few areas and is waaay overplayed by the media. If you didn't purposely venture into those areas, you'd have no idea it existed in Oakland.
I have no doubt that, that region of California puts East Texas to shame in most ways, no argument there. F.W.I.W., given a choice, I probably wouldn't live in ET, but my business and family is here.
It just seems that much of what you see and hear about Oakland is the violence, drug and gang stuff, the media has reported things that convinced me that I wouldn't want to live there.
Anyway, back on topic . . . .
and the people who have the most redicoulas reasons for not wanting to see someone's fights is ignorant. What can you have against a guy who calls himself SOG. He is a Humble and Noble winner and thats one of the reasons he is amongst my favorite fighters.
Your probably one of the guys who booed during the Pac Man Clottey fight
I always say it and Ill say it again
if you have ever thought you had seen a boring Boxing match then your not a Boxing fan
Go RAIDERS!!!
Quote:
ReBeL BLacK
Danm that was Brutal you killed it
and the people who have the most redicoulas reasons for not wanting to see someone's fights is ignorant. What can you have against a guy who calls himself SOG. He is a Humble and Noble winner and thats one of the reasons he is amongst my favorite fighters.
Your probably one of the guys who booed during the Pac Man Clottey fight
I always say it and Ill say it again
if you have ever thought you had seen a boring Boxing match then your not a Boxing fan
Go RAIDERS!!!
Attention! pretentious newbie cretin alert! man your ignore features now!
Whose a Jigga whaaaaah?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax