What are your criticisms of the boxing programming at HBO/Showtime?

Ken Hershman and Stephen Espinoza begin their tenure this year on HBO and Showtime respectively. I know it is probably futile, but I was considering drafting a letter to them regarding areas that HBO and Showtime could improve upon. What do posters here feel HBO/Showtime can improve upon or continue to do correctly.

For example, I believe they can do a better job forcing tougher matchmaking at the top level. I believe catering to certain advisors/promoters frequently makes for worse television because promoters are hesitant to put their guys in tough. We don't need to see Andre Berto fighting cans for $1M. Stick to their guns in terms of tough match ups at least on paper and if a promoter doesn't have a good match-up in his stable of fighters, force the promoter to work other promoters.

Another example is to pay more attention to the little guys. All too often the little guys are ignored yet turn out eye-catching performances. Half of the foy of the year candidates this year consisted of guys in the lighter weight classes. At least on the undercards, put on guys like Hernan Marquez and Hugo Ruiz. They won't cost too much and they make for great fights. Additionally, fighters from the lighter weight classes appeal to the Latino and Asian demographic.

Go out of the US more. Push for fights in Mexico, the Philipines, Indonesia and the UK etc. The atmosphere at the events makes for great television.

Those are just a couple of ideas I had. I'm sure the knowledgable posters at Saddo's have many that I haven't considered. Advice?

HBO/Showtime/ESPN...all of them need to understand there are certain things true fans know

#1 STYLES MAKE FIGHTS...let's try to plan good solid style matchups: Gatti-Ward, Corrales-Castillo, Berto-Ortiz....GOOD, Bernard Hopkins vs anyone, Byrd vs Williamson, Williams vs Cintron BAD...(however B-Hop will be redeemed further down the list)

#2 Undercard matches matter and should therefore be as exciting if not more exciting than the Main Event. UFC is currently kicking your asses on this front.

#3 If you can't get a good style match up at the very least make the fight worth something, a title shot, a record...SOMETHING. This is where B-Hop fits in, he's old, he's cagey, he's a wiley veteran that's forgotten more about boxing than his opponents will ever learn.

#4 Especially ESPN DON'T BASH THE SPORT...commentators are too quick to be negative about boxing, even the guys who say they love it, they love to knit pick at petty little shit and let it ruin a night of boxing. Just because something happened that irritates you or you don't agree with doesn't mean you need to say "This is what's killing boxing" or some such hyperbole.

#5 Use competent judges and referees....NO MORE LAURENCE COLE!!! I don't care whose dick he sucked in Texas to where he does all the God damned fights there he is HORRIBLE. And no more sorry ass judges...actually if a judge turns in a bad card I would like to see them be forced to defend it in a post fight press conference...it's time we cleaned the sport up!

#6 Just because a fight happens outside of the US doesn't mean its total crap...perhaps there was a day where that was true, but now the US and the Western Hemisphere doesn't hold sway over the whole of boxing like it used to...you'll have to travel, you'll have to run tape delay or fix your programming schedule to account for this....tough shit, it's the way of the world.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

HBO/Showtime/ESPN...all of them need to understand there are certain things true fans know

#1 STYLES MAKE FIGHTS...let's try to plan good solid style matchups: Gatti-Ward, Corrales-Castillo, Berto-Ortiz....GOOD, Bernard Hopkins vs anyone, Byrd vs Williamson, Williams vs Cintron BAD...(however B-Hop will be redeemed further down the list)

#2 Undercard matches matter and should therefore be as exciting if not more exciting than the Main Event. UFC is currently kicking your asses on this front.

#3 If you can't get a good style match up at the very least make the fight worth something, a title shot, a record...SOMETHING. This is where B-Hop fits in, he's old, he's cagey, he's a wiley veteran that's forgotten more about boxing than his opponents will ever learn.

#4 Especially ESPN DON'T BASH THE SPORT...commentators are too quick to be negative about boxing, even the guys who say they love it, they love to knit pick at petty little shit and let it ruin a night of boxing. Just because something happened that irritates you or you don't agree with doesn't mean you need to say "This is what's killing boxing" or some such hyperbole.

#5 Use competent judges and referees....NO MORE LAURENCE COLE!!! I don't care whose dick he sucked in Texas to where he does all the God damned fights there he is HORRIBLE. And no more sorry ass judges...actually if a judge turns in a bad card I would like to see them be forced to defend it in a post fight press conference...it's time we cleaned the sport up!

#6 Just because a fight happens outside of the US doesn't mean its total crap...perhaps there was a day where that was true, but now the US and the Western Hemisphere doesn't hold sway over the whole of boxing like it used to...you'll have to travel, you'll have to run tape delay or fix your programming schedule to account for this....tough shit, it's the way of the world.

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Lyle - how much influence do the tv stations have over refs/judges? Is it more the Commission? I'm not sure, just asking.

The emphasis of the post is how would you improve their boxing content?

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Lyle - how much influence do the tv stations have over refs/judges? Is it more the Commission? I'm not sure, just asking.

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Well I am of the opinion that the promoters and Athletic Comissions have the most sway, but I do think HBO & Showtime could turn the screws on them...after all, where is boxing without the medium of television???

Showtime on-demand sucks. That's my only complaint.



Ken hershman must run Hbo like he did showtime. Purchase fights instead of fighters and I think they are on the right path in 2012..

Im more of a Showtime guy though.

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Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita

Showtime on-demand sucks. That's my only complaint.



Ken hershman must run Hbo like he did showtime. Purchase fights instead of fighters and I think they are on the right path in 2012..

Im more of a Showtime guy though.

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Good line.

stop overpaying for fights!!!! HBO has been horrible at that. Guys like Bradley and Berto get paid too much. Neither guy can make money without tv because they aren't live draws.

Showtime would pay about 1/2 as much as HBO does and yet HBO pays way too much.

IF you are pricing fights then why doesn't HBO think about how much Showtime will pay for a fight-and then add a 100,000.

Not pay a fighter 1,000,000 for a fight where Showtime would pay 400,000-500,000. IT IS PURE LUNACY.

You can easily do this as well. The purses for the showtime fights are published by the commissions in many states (I believe). Keep a log of all of those and then you can accurately guess how much Showtime will pay.

I think HBO need to get rid of Manny Steward and Jim Lampley. They are well past their sell by date. Meanwhile Larry Merchant needs a 50 year contract extension. He is hardcore.

Get rid of Harold Lederman!!

He is obviously an in house judge but damn!! The guy is so jaded in his scoring its ridiculous.

The most annoying thing about his scoring is his inconsistent reasoning about why he gives fighters rounds.


For example:

• Marquez Vs. Pacquiao - Lederman explaining his scores in the mid rounds saying that when a punch count is equal (it was right after a round that they both landed 10 punches) you have to give the round to the more aggressive fighter (Manny) He said it several times about how JMM's style is not appreciated by judges who like himself favor the agressive agressor.

Ok Harold we will accept that reasoning, a few weeks later we have exibit B

• Cotto VS Margarito -Mid rounds Lederman yells for joy saying "to all the boxing purists who ask if a fighter can win a fight while running away I say the answer is yes!!"

Fire Lederman!!

The original poster made an excellent point regarding HBO. Head of to new shores. It great when they are here in the UK etc but go to places like Japan , Australia or even South America.

Same could be said of Showtime.

I agree about Lederman, he is way off all too often these days. "Jim, I gotta tell ya..."....that you are showing signs of dementia? What are you trying to tell us Harold because none of us are seeing what you are seeing anymore.

I prefer Showtime a lot more than HBO. HBO these days has become somewhat irritating. By contrast I really like Bernstein, Tarver and Gray.

For me Larry Merchant is the only one left at HBO that I genuinely enjoy listening to. Lampley has become too noisy, babbles and is all ego and Manny Steward seems to be getting senile. Lederman is all over the place with his scoring unless it is a really obvious fight.

HBO is flashier, but it's more style over content.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

I prefer Showtime a lot more than HBO. HBO these days has become somewhat irritating. By contrast I really like Bernstein, Tarver and Gray.

For me Larry Merchant is the only one left at HBO that I genuinely enjoy listening to. Lampley has become too noisy, babbles and is all ego and Manny Steward seems to be getting senile. Lederman is all over the place with his scoring unless it is a really obvious fight.

HBO is flashier, but it's more style over content.

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Merchant is the best on HBO , i like you believe that Bernstein , Tarver and Gray do an excellent job , pity we cant have a bernstein and merchant partnership

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Originally Posted by captainanddew

stop overpaying for fights!!!! HBO has been horrible at that. Guys like Bradley and Berto get paid too much. Neither guy can make money without tv because they aren't live draws.

Showtime would pay about 1/2 as much as HBO does and yet HBO pays way too much.

IF you are pricing fights then why doesn't HBO think about how much Showtime will pay for a fight-and then add a 100,000.

Not pay a fighter 1,000,000 for a fight where Showtime would pay 400,000-500,000. IT IS PURE LUNACY.

You can easily do this as well. The purses for the showtime fights are published by the commissions in many states (I believe). Keep a log of all of those and then you can accurately guess how much Showtime will pay.

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Right, don't pay a lot of $ to a fighter unless he is facing a real challenge, which is to say, pay for the fight, not the fighter. Is there any reason why this wouldn't work?

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

I think HBO need to get rid of Manny Steward and Jim Lampley. They are well past their sell by date. Meanwhile Larry Merchant needs a 50 year contract extension. He is hardcore.

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Originally Posted by Onix

Get rid of Harold Lederman!!

He is obviously an in house judge but damn!! The guy is so jaded in his scoring its ridiculous.

The most annoying thing about his scoring is his inconsistent reasoning about why he gives fighters rounds.




For example:

• Marquez Vs. Pacquiao - Lederman explaining his scores in the mid rounds saying that when a punch count is equal (it was right after a round that they both landed 10 punches) you have to give the round to the more aggressive fighter (Manny) He said it several times about how JMM's style is not appreciated by judges who like himself favor the agressive agressor.

Ok Harold we will accept that reasoning, a few weeks later we have exibit B

• Cotto VS Margarito -Mid rounds Lederman yells for joy saying "to all the boxing purists who ask if a fighter can win a fight while running away I say the answer is yes!!"

Fire Lederman!!

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Switching up the announcers is another way they could improve. What are good examples of good sports announcing that HBO should try to imitate with choices in announcing? Personally, I believe Max Kellerman has grown into being a great announcer. I also still get a kick out of Larry Merchant. How many more years under the sun does he have remaining anyway?

I HATE Jim Grey...he's an annoying little shit and thank God James Toney scared the hell out of him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgecPysuGB4

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I HATE Jim Grey...he's an annoying little shit

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Thank god someone here is being sensible. I was about to make the same response. Whereas Larry Merchant can make interviews uncomfortable in a good, aggressive way, Grey makes them uncomfortable in an awkward, cringeworthy way. And the guy has zero charisma; he seems nervous almost all of the time, like he's afraid of what the response to his questions/comments is going to be. I have no idea how he ever got into the sportscasting business -- totally wrong for the job.

I agree with Rantcatrat about Kellerman. I always liked him, but he's really matured and gotten quite good.

I sort of agree with miles about Lampley and Steward. Tarver has definitely surpassed Steward for me. But I don't love Showtime's version of Lampley either -- I can't even remember his name (not Gus Johnson -- the other one; Gus Johnson, btw, is obviously the very worst commentator to ever touch either network (both, in fact!)). Bernstein has always been a favorite of mine though.

I remember I always used to get a kick out of HBO commentary. Just felt more authentic for a big fight but their bias is getting real boring, real fast!

Lederman has always been insane with his scoring. For example - Scoring the Oscar De La Hoya vs Molina fight for Molina when it was clearly Oscars fight.

Chavez vs Mayweather gave Chavez the first 2 rounds?? Insanity..and even the Lewis v Akinwade fight I noticed he gave Akinwade one of the first 3 rounds! LOL.

Ok he used to be insane but scoring against DLH was at least neutral. Now HBO's bias is getting boring. The JMM vs Pac fight was insane. Lederman, Lampley and Steward verbally felating Pac for things that aren't happening. It took Kellerman to calm these old folk down by saying "look I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the judges see it the opposite of you guys" (Good call on Kellerman btw - he's always been quite solid in my book)

Larry Merchant comes up with a gem every hour or so but he's like the naughty kid who just pipes up every so often. He needs time to think..a LOT of time.

Replace Steward with Roy Jones..why hasn't this happened yet?? Maybe because he's still active. Tarver as well has been great..charismatic boxers do a great job of explaining what's happening in a fight.

I'd say for the most part HBO could keep things the way they are if they weren't so damn biased! But Lederman is really only there for "ooooookay Jim.." these days

That HBO quits being the Haymon Boxing Organization. I'm sick of Al Haymon's fighters getting overpaid and overhyped.

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Originally Posted by Onix

Get rid of Harold Lederman!!

He is obviously an in house judge but damn!! The guy is so jaded in his scoring its ridiculous.

The most annoying thing about his scoring is his inconsistent reasoning about why he gives fighters rounds.


For example:

• Marquez Vs. Pacquiao - Lederman explaining his scores in the mid rounds saying that when a punch count is equal (it was right after a round that they both landed 10 punches) you have to give the round to the more aggressive fighter (Manny) He said it several times about how JMM's style is not appreciated by judges who like himself favor the agressive agressor.

Ok Harold we will accept that reasoning, a few weeks later we have exibit B

• Cotto VS Margarito -Mid rounds Lederman yells for joy saying "to all the boxing purists who ask if a fighter can win a fight while running away I say the answer is yes!!"

Fire Lederman!!

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Harold is bar none the worst judge on TV. He's always been for the house fighter blatently and is just horrid.

The glaring example of this was when he had Panchito Bojado WINNING against Jesse James Leija after Leija schooled him all night. Even the rest of the announcers disagreed with Harold that night.

Its tragic he is fighting cancer right now and I wish him the best, but I really can't stand his judging most nights.

Also Lyle, I think your #5 should be #1. Bad judging and officiating is the worst offender in boxing today. Always has been.

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Originally Posted by Althugz

I remember I always used to get a kick out of HBO commentary. Just felt more authentic for a big fight but their bias is getting real boring, real fast!

Lederman has always been insane with his scoring. For example - Scoring the Oscar De La Hoya vs Molina fight for Molina when it was clearly Oscars fight.

Chavez vs Mayweather gave Chavez the first 2 rounds?? Insanity..and even the Lewis v Akinwade fight I noticed he gave Akinwade one of the first 3 rounds! LOL.

Ok he used to be insane but scoring against DLH was at least neutral. Now HBO's bias is getting boring. The JMM vs Pac fight was insane. Lederman, Lampley and Steward verbally felating Pac for things that aren't happening. It took Kellerman to calm these old folk down by saying "look I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the judges see it the opposite of you guys" (Good call on Kellerman btw - he's always been quite solid in my book)

Larry Merchant comes up with a gem every hour or so but he's like the naughty kid who just pipes up every so often. He needs time to think..a LOT of time.

Replace Steward with Roy Jones..why hasn't this happened yet?? Maybe because he's still active. Tarver as well has been great..charismatic boxers do a great job of explaining what's happening in a fight.

I'd say for the most part HBO could keep things the way they are if they weren't so damn biased! But Lederman is really only there for "ooooookay Jim.." these days

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Jones , Kellerman and Larry should make up the HBO team. Bob Papa isn't all too bad either.

Ignore all alphabets and hope they'll go away.

showtime needs a better announce team. All they have to do is poach 1 announcer from HBO, and it would make a huge improvement

I would ask them to stop PPV or reduce it dramatically. Put more promotions on mainstream TV like Manny Pacquia on ABC, NBC etc as well as fights.

Id like to see the ring girls get more camera time on HBO cuz they are barely visible... HBO Boxing isn't exactly a PG program so I dont know why they are always blocking out the asses..

Showtime beats them in the ass department too..

For Showtime (which I pay for) I usually have to find a stream for their fights because they aren't played live where I live. If a fight is on at 9 pm EDT, it will be on at 9 PM MDT (where I am right now) 2 hours later.

For HBO, I would like to see a weekly show maybe half an hour long that talks about the sport in general who the names are, what's going on etc. It would be an easy way to promote their fights and fighters. I would like to see some kind of system to their fights not just the routine of Upcoming star vs. Guy with a name that used be a contender. I think something that would help boxing would be making a big knockout bracket system top 4 fighters from each division, Showtime has done it and it makes sense. I want to be clear though keep it simple single elimination, semi-finals and final. Make the pay to the fighters contingent on their success in the tournament to give them incentive to push it to the limit.

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Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita

Id like to see the ring girls get more camera time on HBO cuz they are barely visible... HBO Boxing isn't exactly a PG program so I dont know why they are always blocking out the asses..

Showtime beats them in the ass department too..

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You should watch the playboy channel if you want to watch some ass or go to the fight live if you want to see the ring girls. ESPN have some of the best ring girls anyway.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita

Id like to see the ring girls get more camera time on HBO cuz they are barely visible... HBO Boxing isn't exactly a PG program so I dont know why they are always blocking out the asses..

Showtime beats them in the ass department too..

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You should watch the playboy channel if you want to watch some ass or go to the fight live if you want to see the ring girls. ESPN have some of the best ring girls anyway.

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Im more of an Adam and Eve type of guy, Master. Playboy has high quality girls but the programs are such a tease you know what I mean..

As far as I can remember, the hottest ring girls Ive seen live was at Paul Williams-Margarito card at the Home Depot Center.. some sick sick latinas with million dollar asses..

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Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita

Id like to see the ring girls get more camera time on HBO cuz they are barely visible... HBO Boxing isn't exactly a PG program so I dont know why they are always blocking out the asses..

Showtime beats them in the ass department too..

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You should watch the playboy channel if you want to watch some ass or go to the fight live if you want to see the ring girls. ESPN have some of the best ring girls anyway.

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Im more of an Adam and Eve type of guy, Master. Playboy has high quality girls but the programs are such a tease you know what I mean..

As far as I can remember, the hottest ring girls Ive seen live was at Paul Williams-Margarito card at the Home Depot Center.. some sick sick latinas with million dollar asses..

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Pictures would be appreciated, love the brown skin. :cool:

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Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita

Id like to see the ring girls get more camera time on HBO cuz they are barely visible... HBO Boxing isn't exactly a PG program so I dont know why they are always blocking out the asses..

Showtime beats them in the ass department too..

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You should watch the playboy channel if you want to watch some ass or go to the fight live if you want to see the ring girls. ESPN have some of the best ring girls anyway.

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Im more of an Adam and Eve type of guy, Master. Playboy has high quality girls but the programs are such a tease you know what I mean..

As far as I can remember, the hottest ring girls Ive seen live was at Paul Williams-Margarito card at the Home Depot Center.. some sick sick latinas with million dollar asses..

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I would like to offer a candidate for the worst if I may...Frank Maloneys York Hall shows..Looks like he dragged single mothers out of the Dagenham Job Centre and said "Alright love? Fancy some work tonight?"

Back on topic though..after today I would ask HBO to tell Arum to fuck off with his fake ass "fights"

Showtime has come a long way but why is Jim Grey still on the active list? Thanks to El Kabong I found a new hero in James Toney. Lampley has got to stop running his mouth about things not happening in the ring and drifting to a far away place. Stop tiptoeing through the f***tulips on my time. Forget your bias because you just missed one of the better combinations of the fight. This jerk and Steward have the nerve to talk about a bad decision at times and forget that while they were running their motorized lips that a fight ensued. Have you ever seen the look on Kellerman's face? At least for now he is a thinking man's commentator. I am not saying that he doesn't make mistakes but at least he watches, he listens and he has the courage to ask questions tactfully unlike Jim F***ing Grey. Roy Jones and Tarver give boxing a new flavor for the fans. They give us information and they make it fun and that is what we want instead of high priced dull announcers and inept promoters.