How Ali could take Foremans shots but not Frazıers so well?

I keep watchıng the rumble and I see how Ali naıled Foreman wıth rıght hand leads early on. etc. I see how thıs pıssed off George and he went wıld tryıng to kıll Ali. Many more than several flush shots apparently landed and I sımply could see no reactıon at all from Ali. I am really wonderıng how thıs ıs possıble. We saw Ali staggered by Cooper, Frazıer, adn several others---so how could ıt be Foreman the most destructıve puncher of all tıme could not stagger Ali wıth several clean shots to the head, chın, ear, etc? Not to mentıon dozens of wıcked body shots ıncludıng kıdney shots whıch would have crıppled a horse.....Yes Ali had perhaps the greatest chın ever, but why no sıgn at all of beıng even a bıt buzzed by those ıncredıble shots? George landed alot more power punches than I remembered. The fırst two rounds of that fıght are amazıngly nerve-wrackıng.

I think it's really as simple as Ali having seen his shots coming, wheras not Fraziers. Foreman really loaded up on everything in those days, didn't use his jab and half of everything powerful came from waist level, which played right into his hands against a bob and weave infighter like Frazier. Ali's tactics and mindgames combined with the crowd being so in favour of him only caused George to become more predictable. I think what's more shocking is how Foreman got rid of Frazier so easily, although it does make sense when you break down the styles.

Same as Holmes could take Shavers, McCalls, Holyfields, Bonecrushers and Cooneys but not Tysons;)

Speed.

yeah good poınts. Ali saw the punches comıng even before George thought to throw them practıcally. Probably took half the power out of the shots.

Because Foreman's punches were all telegraphed and predictable which allowed Ali to brace for the punch....

On the other hand, as the smaller man, Frazier was able to get inside on Ali while landing quick punches that surprised him more... Punches that u dont see coming are the ones that hurt you and Frazier was able to land plenty of them..

IT's all about styles and handspeed.. NO doubt big George had the heavier hands but as I stated in another thread, punching power comes in many forms..

Frazier's style was simply more effective against Ali...

IIRC For that fight Ali specifically trained to take a major beating and not be affected by it. (Maybe that training was a change for him at that time?)

Style and delivery system

Simply because he could see them coming and was braced to take the shot, whereas against Frazier he didn't see 'em coming. The one you don't see coming does the most damage.

He took a lot of them on the arms and the ones landed on the chin were met with a great chin.

Seems like Ali took most of George's big shots on his gloves, arms/elbows, some did get through but Ali took them well. It also helped that Ali had the heart of a fucking Lion.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

I think it's really as simple as Ali having seen his shots coming, wheras not Fraziers. Foreman really loaded up on everything in those days, didn't use his jab and half of everything powerful came from waist level, which played right into his hands against a bob and weave infighter like Frazier. Ali's tactics and mindgames combined with the crowd being so in favour of him only caused George to become more predictable. I think what's more shocking is how Foreman got rid of Frazier so easily, although it does make sense when you break down the styles.

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Good assessment, Frazier had a wonderful left hook, you're right Ali didn't see them coming. Frazier would throw them from a different angle and put all his body behind it. Foreman was more predictable, remember Ali's taunts before the fight "Here comes George with a left, here comes George with a right" Foreman telegraphed what he was going to do before it happened giving Ali time to brace for the punch or slip the punch altogether. With Frazier you just got popped and you didn't see it. The Ali strategy of the right hand lead against Foreman was a master stroke, it was devised by a man who was a brilliant ring tactician, someone who did his homework. Ali was not always joking about in the lead up to his fights. It is obvious that behind closed doors he was very serious about his craft, he was the only one who saw flaws in big George and proceeded to put that into practice. I doubt if there was any other Heavyweight in history who could've beaten Foreman in 1974. Sports writers were in fear of Ali's life at the time, yet with a brilliant ring strategy Ali dismantled George round by round. When it comes to left hooks, Smokin' Joe had one of the best ever.

Also Joe's beautiful left hook normally came out of the crouch position. Joe would launch himself up and into Ali's range. Ali preferred the style of defense where he leaned back away from the punches... and many of those left hooks went whistling by... but many hit the target. Joe being the shorter man... that helped also.

Ali used the oldest trick in boxing, let your opponent punch himself out, and then when he's exhausted, you own him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWkTU...eature=related

Classic fight, I always enjoy returning to this one.

Speed and timing were the difference. As has been mentioned Foreman really loaded up and you could see it coming, Frazier was just quicker and able to surprise Ali more.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Yes Ali had perhaps the greatest chın ever.

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Says who?

I think a lot of his staying power was to do with having the right mental attitude.

Lets not forget Ali took a lot of punches to the back of the head in his career, which does not hurt but can do damage to your health in the long run. This was to with his slight slip where he would turn his body slightly and the shot would hit the back of his skull.

Have not seen these epic fights recently but if as you say he wound up Foreman, but he played defensively and possum for long periods at he start of the foreman fight.

Easier to take a powerful shot when you know it is coming, it is the shots you do not expect or see which will knock your ass down.

Did foreman telegraph his blows in the Ali fight, bc he was so pissed off at Ali.
Maybe slightly.

Physically there is nothing you can train for to take a beating, but if you have the frame of mind and are mentally strong you can achieve any thing.

Angelo Dundee wanted to throw in the towel for the Fraizer fight III.

Both times and I am sure many more ali fought with heart, and not many people can do that he gave 110% effort and that extra 10% can win these close fights.

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Originally Posted by boyla

Physically there is nothing you can train for to take a beating, but if you have the frame of mind and are mentally strong you can achieve any thing.

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Yeah alot of it is you have to be stubborn and not give up but you wont take those punches if your unfit.

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Originally Posted by ross

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Originally Posted by boyla

Physically there is nothing you can train for to take a beating, but if you have the frame of mind and are mentally strong you can achieve any thing.

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Yeah alot of it is you have to be stubborn and not give up but you wont take those punches if your unfit.

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Ali was still 32 years old when this fight with Foreman took place in 1973, and he looked to be in great shape.
Ali fought a brilliant fight, but I still believe that Foreman gave the fight away, had he paced himself better we would have seen a different result. That was the problem George had no concept of pacing himself and fell right into Ali's trap.

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

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Originally Posted by ross

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Originally Posted by boyla

Physically there is nothing you can train for to take a beating, but if you have the frame of mind and are mentally strong you can achieve any thing.

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Yeah alot of it is you have to be stubborn and not give up but you wont take those punches if your unfit.

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Ali was still 32 years old when this fight with Foreman took place in 1973, and he looked to be in great shape.
Ali fought a brilliant fight, but I still believe that Foreman gave the fight away, had he paced himself better we would have seen a different result. That was the problem George had no concept of pacing himself and fell right into Ali's trap.

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George said the same thing, he said he would have just used his jab more and won the fight on points if he had too.

I would argue that it was a matter of simple momentum...Frazier snapped his left hook, George rared back and launched his...it could be a matter of Ali being better able to time George's shots, but what does that then say about Frazier who 2 of the 3 times Ali fought him was a 1 armed fighter. Smokin' Joe ONLY had the left hook so Ali and everyone else knew where the power was coming from....just goes to show you what a brutal and devistating punch it actually was.

Joe Frazier had one of the best left hooks in boxing history....right up there with Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, and Mike Tyson.

Joe was strong for his smaller stature but he did not have as far to travel with his hooks and right hand shots. He also had smaller forearms which added to his speed but no one should ever stand still for the mummy because he was a monster back then. As a further example of power, Hagler, Hearns and Duran were perfect fighting machines with the right size forearms. Yes gents it's also a physical gift that keeps on giving.

Joe Frazier's left hook because of his earlier badly set break came in at a more unpredictable crazy angle, and his relentless workrate was a lot for anyone to deal with. His short crocodile arms taught him how to fight up close with frightening ferocity. Ali was clearly more afraid of him than big George, hence his ugly name calling. Joe had Ali's number.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I would argue that it was a matter of simple momentum...Frazier snapped his left hook, George rared back and launched his...it could be a matter of Ali being better able to time George's shots, but what does that then say about Frazier who 2 of the 3 times Ali fought him was a 1 armed fighter. Smokin' Joe ONLY had the left hook so Ali and everyone else knew where the power was coming from....just goes to show you what a brutal and devistating punch it actually was.

Joe Frazier had one of the best left hooks in boxing history....right up there with Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, and Mike Tyson.

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Frazier was unfortunate to fight in an era that included Ali and Foreman, Ali needed all of his skills to win against Smokin' Joe while Foreman was just all wrong for Joe. Frazier's bobbing and weaving and constant head movement made it difficult for Ali to know where Joe's shots were coming from, Ali had a lightning fast jab, he relied on it in every fight, with Frazier he just couldn't land it effectively enough to halt him except in fight 3 and that took all of 14 rounds to do.
Frazier is well underestimated as a heavyweight champion.

Every time Ali went down in his career (excluding wepner standing on his foot and pushing him down), it was from a left hook. Didn't see it coming.
A lot of fighters are like that. Carl Williams could take a right hand, but left hooks nailed him. Every time he was down was from a hook, but every time Holmes went down it was from a right hand.

Pretty much summed up here but one thing that was also a contributing factor was that Ali never was able to grab hold of Frazier and absolutely neutralize Frazier. There was a very fair amount of holding but Joe never let himself get smothered like Foreman. Also, Ali was on his feet a lot more against Frazier which surely drained the gas tank. He also ran into a couple shots while moving, which obviously never helps. He squared up a lot to Foreman, more than he ever had before at least. Otherwise, everything everyone mentioned is essentially correct.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Every time Ali went down in his career (excluding wepner standing on his foot and pushing him down), it was from a left hook. Didn't see it coming.
A lot of fighters are like that. Carl Williams could take a right hand, but left hooks nailed him. Every time he was down was from a hook, but every time Holmes went down it was from a right hand.

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That is true for most fighters, left hooks get more knock downs/ knock outs than any other punch.
It has a shorter distance to travel, can hit on the blindside.