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I was sipping whisky while going through my dvd collection of boxers and I came across James tony's bundle and to this minute a questions been nagging at me. In a Tony vs Ali fight, who would win?
Tony had a habit of loving his defense so much that he would not punch for almost half the round
Ali threw token punches on the inside and while against the ropes.
In a sense they were each others kryptonite.
I'd love to hear you thoughts and suggestions on this particular question
Toney wasn't aggressive enough in my view, Ali's reach and movement would be enough to handle Toney.
However I like the style matchup because neither fighter ever saw what they would both bring to the ring from an opponent in their careers. And it could be more interesting if Toney was more aggressive.
I think Evander Holyfield would have given Ali hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
James Toney would have a better chance than James Tony in my opinion.
Look how he managed against Roy Jones Jr. Somebody fast on their feet, who can throw fast bunches of stinging shots from a multitude of unorthodox angles.
There you go.
What?Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Ali left everything in the ring in his fights with Fraizier and Foreman never mind Norton and Shavers.
No contest and an unfair matchup. Toney best weight was middle and super middle. He looked great in a couple of other fights notably Holyfield and the southpaw at cruiserweight.
Maybe he thought we were talking about Vitali? ???Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterWhat?Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Ali left everything in the ring in his fights with Fraizier and Foreman never mind Norton and Shavers.
Ali would win by wide decision in my opinion. Toney gets troubled by movers with fast hands. I would rather have seen a Toney vs 91 Foreman showdown instead.
First off than you for letting me know about the typo, reason I thought the fight wouldn't be that unfair in terms of weight is because toney was still very good at cruiser and Ali was 15 pounds over that in most of his fights.
Second point, as Norton demonstrated three times, though the third fight was just plain weird as how it ended, Ali has a horrible time against people who stand outside of him and force him to come forward.
As mentioned previously by you gents James doesn't do well against movers and hes seldom busy on the ring.
Here is another one if I still have your attention:
Leonard vs de la hoya
Flurry vs stiff jab/ uppercut vs left hook.
My only true concern for Oscar is his stamina asides that, I think he could have held his own.
Love Toney but I think Ali takes a wide one. Toneys backfoot wasn't really there and Ali wasn't going to play that sit inside game and had the mobility/versatility to make Toney look down right oafish.
What are you talking about? I'm saying Toney never fought anyone with Ali's style and Ali never fought anyone with Toney's style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Reading it back still makes no sense, nothing Toney could do would be a problem for Ali. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongWhat are you talking about? I'm saying Toney never fought anyone with Ali's style and Ali never fought anyone with Toney's style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
A much better fight would have been the Roy Jones Jr. that fought Ruiz vs. Cassius Clay.
They were similar in weight as Clay was a smallish heavyweight before his exile.
I think Jones would have been too fast, and before people start the "glass chin" business about Jones, consider if Clay would have been able to hit him clean.
Ali beat Liston and other decent heavyweights, Roy beat ....Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
And Liston didn't fight much like Roy now did he ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterAli beat Liston and other decent heavyweights, Roy beat ....Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
I suppose you can say an old Floyd Patterson with back problems was similar to Roy Jones, but not really.
A young brash, skinny Cassius Clay struggled greatly with Doug Jones and was lucky to get the win.
I think he struggles even more with the unbelievable speed, talent and unorthodox style of Roy Jones.
I see Roy outspeeding and outpointing Clay for a decision.
You are quite mad.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkAnd Liston didn't fight much like Roy now did he ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterAli beat Liston and other decent heavyweights, Roy beat ....Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
I suppose you can say an old Floyd Patterson with back problems was similar to Roy Jones, but not really.
A young brash, skinny Cassius Clay struggled greatly with Doug Jones and was lucky to get the win.
I think he struggles even more with the unbelievable speed, talent and unorthodox style of Roy Jones.
I see Roy outspeeding and outpointing Clay for a decision.
Hang on... We're matching a prime Jones Jr against a green Casius Clay?
Stretching it a bit?
I think its debatable if Jones was still prime when he faced Ruiz, Miles. Clay who beat Liston even vs. Roy Jones who beat Ruiz. I'll take Roy.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
Clay/Ali has an aura and deserves all the accolades, but he was not unbeatable.
Henry Cooper essentially KO'd him then Ali was given over 10 mins to recover when Dundee ripped open a glove. And no that is not a myth, it is a fact. One that has been recounted on documentaries and by Dundee himself.
It was closer to 10 seconds than ten minutes... 0_o
Fact is that you're still talking about a Jones who was at the very least NEAR his peak and more experienced than cas clay was.
Jones at a comparable point in his career to when clay fought cooper had not long moved up from 154lb
If you compare two fighters then it's only fair to compare them at similar times.
I'd beat Ali AND Jones on the same day.
(if I boxed them now, the first time they sparred) :rolleyes:
Edit: did you just call me 'Miles'?
Fucking cunt! Wash your mouth with soap.
Clay v Cooper - The Final Word On The Torn Glove Story
...but people do love a good story, so the legend persists.
I think this could be a very interesting fight, especially if we are going to assume that Toney comes in motivated, in shape and determined to win. In that case, he would be plenty aggressive. I just watched the Holyfield fight, and Toney went after him and got that ass; he toyed with Evander from the second round on.
One thing you aren't going to do is dance around James Toney and poke at him with a jab, or beat him with the right hand, and Ali had nothing else. Ali really had only reflexes and conditioning, and that is plenty against the big dummies of the boxing world, the HW division. Not so much against a very smart fighter.
I think that the jab Toney showed in the Hembrick and Holyfield fights, for example, would give Ali troubles because when Ali jabbed his right glove flared out; it didn't stay home to catch the counter jab. Norton exploited this, and I think Toney, much more skilled and faster than Norton, would be able to do the same. Ali would have a lot of trouble because Toney would be as fast ands would be able to counter him.
Hulk by your equation a young Ali v Herbie Hide would have been a close contest too. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkI think its debatable if Jones was still prime when he faced Ruiz, Miles. Clay who beat Liston even vs. Roy Jones who beat Ruiz. I'll take Roy.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
Clay/Ali has an aura and deserves all the accolades, but he was not unbeatable.
Henry Cooper essentially KO'd him then Ali was given over 10 mins to recover when Dundee ripped open a glove. And no that is not a myth, it is a fact. One that has been recounted on documentaries and by Dundee himself.
Consider it a compliment you cheeky cunt ! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
And I said Clay who fought Liston vs. Jones who fought Ruiz.
Jesus Christ we both know Jones would have been a more difficult match up for Ali than a relatively stationary James Toney.
And it wasn't 10 seconds, thats nonsense. The myth is that the glove incident was short or never occurred, not that it was long.
And if we are to compare them at similar times then Jones who beat Ruiz vs. Ali who beat Leon Spinks.
There thats fair ;D
And I see your Eastsideboxing source regarding the glove tear and raise you this:
Remembrance: Trainer Angelo Dundee Was At His Best In The Corner For Ali, Leonard And More
I don't like Kevin Iole but he is Yahoo Sports top boxing/mma writer. I don't think he would subscribe to an urban legend or myth.
And here is another article recounting the events as well:
Angelo Dundee never forgot his Philly roots - Page 3 - Philly.com
BUT...I could be wrong. ;)
I'm just glad my whiskey induced thoughts provoked this much interest :D
As for Jones Vs Ali...I think ht would an anticlimatic fight as neither fighters like to come forward since they have a much easier time goading their opponents to come at [them.]
In terms of pure speed Jones has it over ali and I think he had a better left hook by far, he also goes to the body, though not consistantly enough for my taste, however Ali's jab...well that jab wins championship fights.
In a sense it would be akin to wlad vs Haye (the pussification of Haye aside). one fighter trying home in the jab and the other trying to find an opportunity to throw in sharp counter punches.