I know this has been done 103803823 times over the years, but I just watched that retarded "computer fight" for the first time.
Do people actually think Marciano would beat anything other than a late 70s Ali? It's mind boggling to me ;D
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I know this has been done 103803823 times over the years, but I just watched that retarded "computer fight" for the first time.
Do people actually think Marciano would beat anything other than a late 70s Ali? It's mind boggling to me ;D
I think they did it based on what he did to Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott. Though both of them thoroughly outboxed and spanked him, in the end he caught them with big punches and took them out. Now Ali I believe was a bigger man then those aforementioned and he could take a better punch.
Also I really think Marciano's Career is inflated due to the simple fact the named fighters he fought well all over the hill. However he always brought pressure and kept swinging after he missed which is quite terrifying if you're a counter puncher going against him.
Marciano would have no chance against Ali, but saying that he was a great champion in
his own time,cant ask for more than that.
Of course some fans do, anything can happen in the ring.
Look, Rocky was as durable as they come and a puncher always has a chance.
I don't think Marciano could have beaten Ali at any time, BUT a puncher always has that slim chance, and that is what feeds the Marciano mystique. Everyone wants to believe the little guy has a chance , you'll never change that.
Ali would have beaten Rocky and Joe Louis, he had the style, size and character to beat them.
Of course Marciano had a chance, he was hard as nails, had a great chin, super fit, would never quit and carried his power through to the end. If Cooper and Frazier could put him down so could Rocky M. In fact if Rocky M had put him down I believe he would have found it harder to get back up and if he did get back up Marciano would be hunting him down for the stoppage.
Ali would be a big favourite definitely but Marciano was a great champion too, would it really be a huge upset if he won?
I think the fact they had complete opposite styles make most people pick Ali and they think he would give Rocky a boxing lesson, I don't think it would be that straight forward. I imagine a Mayweather v Cotto type of fight....but better and closer.
Yes, it would have been a HUGE upset. Come on.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
Ali was not only technically superior and *much* faster; he was also *much* bigger. Marciano was barely a cruiserweight -- he was 5'11" and always weighed around 180. Ali was 6'3" and always weighed around 220.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
This would not have been a close fight (or a fair fight). Give it a rest.
No disrespect to Rocky, but a prime Ali would have boxed circles around Marciano, by the late rounds Rock's face would be a mess, and the fight would be stopped on a TKO. People seem to forget, in addition to being a great offensive fighter, Ali had a great defense. Marciano had short arms, so reaching Ali with effective shots would be next to impossible.
Marciano had great power but I think his "1-punch" power is generally overrated.
Watch his fight with fat Don Cockell. He was teeing off on the fat man and couldn't drop him.
Ali EASILY beats Marciano, I don't even see how it could be close.
Yes I would have expected Ali to win but Marciano would have had a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaYes, it would have been a HUGE upset. Come on.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
Ali was not only technically superior and *much* faster; he was also *much* bigger. Marciano was barely a cruiserweight -- he was 5'11" and always weighed around 180. Ali was 6'3" and always weighed around 220.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
This would not have been a close fight (or a fair fight). Give it a rest.
I see Ali v Marciano going same way as Lewis v Gary Mason
Referee waving it off around the 7th with a sad , sorry , bloodied Marciano looking short of ideas
With all due respect, I don't think that many understand what they were seeing in the sparring video compiled for the Ali/Marciano computer fight. If you did, you would see why Marciano would give Ali fits, and, in my estimation, beat him pretty decisively, if not stop him. Let me explain.
Frazier came towards Ali with his weight forward, right there to have jabs and right hands bounced off his head, and to eat uppercuts. This is because he was looking for the left hook. Watch how Marciano approached Ali; in a crouch, weight over his back foot, pulling his head away from the only two weapons Ali had. That being his jab and his right hand. Also, Marciano was constantly shading to his right, surrounding Ali's jab. Anybody that has watched Ali knows that, other than in the 2nd Liston "fight", he couldn't/wouldn't/didn't fight moving to his right.
So Marciano's sliding to his right makes Ali do one of two, maybe three things. First, he has to reach with his jab. Ali had a tendency to drop that punch, but got away with it due to his reflexes, but not if he is stretching and reaching to get at Marciano's head. This leaves him open for Marciano's best punch, the right hand. Second, to move the way he likes to move, Ali would have to take a long step and a wide pivot to his left, to get around Marciano and into range to land his jab. Watch the video made for the computer bout. Ali makes this move which puts him right in front of Marciano, in aposition where they are exchanging punches up close.
Goldman, who trained Marciano was very very shrewd, at least as shrewd as Eddie Futch, much more so than Dundee. You could see that influence in that sparring session, when Rocky was 46 and Goldman long dead. They would have had Ali moving himself into exchanges and Marciano's right hand consistently: Ali would have to do it because that was the only way he fought. If he didn't try to make that turn to his left, if he tried to move right or back, Marciano would have run him out of the ring, because that would sacrifice every one of Ali's strengths.
In reality Clay would have beaten Rocky as you can only be as good as your era.
But i feel the same about Clay v a fighter like Lennox Lewis / Klitchko's i just dont see him winning against the modern day monster champion.
So the Ali that beat Terrell or Foreman could not beat Lewis or Klt brothers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxing_photos/ali-cooper.jpg
Marciano come from behind KO in 13.
No , well not the best out of 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSo the Ali that beat Terrell or Foreman could not beat Lewis or Klt brothers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Its just stupid to say Clay could beat the likes of Lewis or Klits , and on the other hand say Rocky had no chance against Clay.
Not now no
I couldnt stand ıt anymore and had to weıgh ın.
Ali would NOT be able to hıt Rocky AT ALL wıth that left hook/uppercut arm punch he loved to throw agaınst Frazıer for example. Nobody ever could hıt hım wıth a left hook. That was Ali's lead-off punch---STEPPİNG BACKWARDS he would snap that left uppercut/hook from underneath as hıs opponent was rushıng ın. Thıs would stop hıs opponent's ınward advance by knockıng hım slıghtly off balance. THEN Ali would throw the lead rıght OR another left uppercut. You can see hım doıng thıs almost every tıme to Frazıer and also to Quarry (ı.e hıs shorter opponents). Problem for Ali ıs that IT WOULDNT WORK LIKE THAT WITH MARCİANO. Ali had plenty of bad habits and tryıng thıs left hook wıth Rocky would result ın several broken ribs on Ali's left flank. Because Rocky could slip underneath that easily and throw a wallop to the body. Yes Rocky would gıve Alı fıts. That ıs the best way to describe it. Frazıer was an easy target--that predıctable bobbıng and weavıng and comıng straıght forward. Rocky never came dırectly forward---Charlıe Goldman fucked everybody over.
Marciano would stop Ali. Frazier destroyed Ali ın 71. Ali was never the same after that---neıther was Frazier. If Frazıer could do that imagıne what Rocky would do.
Frazier hit harder than Rocky with the left hook and Ali could take his he could take Rocky's.
and you dont think for instance Wlad hits harder than both ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
see my point ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaYes, it would have been a HUGE upset. Come on.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
Ali was not only technically superior and *much* faster; he was also *much* bigger. Marciano was barely a cruiserweight -- he was 5'11" and always weighed around 180. Ali was 6'3" and always weighed around 220.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
This would not have been a close fight (or a fair fight). Give it a rest.
Yeah weight wise it would be a closer match asking if Tyson would beat Ali.
I'd say yeah maybe a shock early night if not Poor Mike would collapse and give up late.
Maybe a better question if Marciano would beat Dempsey or Tunney or Greb.
Didnt Joe Walcott drop Rocky with a left hook ?Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
I do but Wlad fights different to Rocky and Joe and they punched faster inside than he does so the fight would play out differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Aland you dont think for instance Wlad hits harder than both ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
see my point ?
How often do u think Wlad will go on the inside against Clay ? and how in gods name does he not tire with an 18stone plus athlete leaning on him ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI do but Wlad fights different to Rocky and Joe and they punched faster inside than he does so the fight would play out differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Aland you dont think for instance Wlad hits harder than both ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
see my point ?
BIG GEORGE was 16 -4 slugger , no way does Clay beat all of these massive top fighters.
Contrary to popular belief many of the post war era HW'S would have had a very good shot at beating ali. Tunney, charles, marciano etc.
This is a good point , it makes me laugh when Clay fans think he could have beaten anyone or any era.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
I recon Ali was more skillful and scientific than those others mentioned but also those others were made of sterner stuff. Marciano was a throw back slugger and wouldnt stay down either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlThis is a good point , it makes me laugh when Clay fans think he could have beaten anyone or any era.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
Greb and him would of been bloody.
No.Quote:
So the Ali that beat Terrell or Foreman could not beat Lewis or Klt brothers?
What special skills did u see ali display against foreman? He lay on the ropes and turned himelf into a punching bag! Im sure u ppl allow time to blinker reality! How would that equate to him beating the klitschkos? The K2 would not slug away like some crude amateur like foreman did! The klitschko's are intelligent fighters. Ali out thought\fought the young/dumb foreman and was prepared to take a beating in the hope's he would gas!
To say an ali waiting on the ropes like an inept, autistic, tourettes sufferer would be a sure fire way of beating a 245 lb ring tactician like klitschko just shows how in denial and inept a thinker u are! The 70's are over....
As for terrell....Ernie Terrell was 6'6" and a good boxer but thats were the comparisons end!
Ernie Terrell IS ONE OF THE WEAKEST MOST FEATHERFISTED GUYS ever witnessed in the whole history of real heavyweight boxing.
He scored only 2 KOs (in his entire career) in real heavyweight fights.
1 KO against Garcia (who started at 150+ lbs).
and 1 KO against a 33-16 bum (Bill Drover).
Ernie Terrell is NOTHING compared to the Klitschkos.
Terrell's real heavyweight record (200x2) is 9-5.
Additionally Terrell claims that Ali thumbed him ("Clay as Clay can") so that his eye got jammed and was fixed in one direction since the early rounds.
The fight Ali-vs-Terrell does not show how well Ali handled a tall guy but HOW BAD ALI performed against a tall guy.
Terrell's medium weight is 197 lbs. He was a CRUISER. Compare Terrell with modern cruisers not with real heavyweights 50 pounds heavier.
That Terrell is even brought up shows how desperate AliFans find someone comparable to the Klitschkos. Give it up: NOBODY is remotely comparable to Wladimir Klitschko. Ali has never faced anyone with such power+experience+size+weight+reach. Don't even try to mention 210+ lbs Foreman or cruiser Frazier.
No greb fights exsist to judge him so can't say. Tunney was a very scientific fighter though.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreI reckon Ali was more skillful and scientific than those others mentioned but also those others were made of sterner stuff. Marciano was a throw back slugger and wouldnt stay down either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlThis is a good point , it makes me laugh when Clay fans think he could have beaten anyone or any era.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
Greb and him would of been bloody.
Philosopher, we did not even see a peak Ali, he was exiled which meant his skills and speed deteriorated which allowed some great fights. Had Ali been allowed to carry on there would be no Frazier or Foreman epics.
Ali would not have allowed the Klits to even lean on him, he would circle the pair and out maneuvered them. Ali had the skill, speed, endurance and discipline to do it.
Circle them if he did that he wouldnt reach them , he would be outjabbed.Clay was great in his era , the end !Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ali was faster and would out jab him and frustrate Wlad causing him to make mistakes which Ali would make Wlad pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlCircle them if he did that he wouldnt reach them , he would be outjabbed.Clay was great in his era , the end !Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Clay is a pup in the modern era , to small ,for all his talents i just dont buy it , he has very little power in this era , he is just to small.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterAli was faster and would out jab him and frustrate Wlad causing him to make mistakes which Ali would make Wlad pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlCircle them if he did that he wouldnt reach them , he would be outjabbed.Clay was great in his era , the end !Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Agreed with the power but still got the talent to win on points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlClay is a pup in the modern era , to small ,for all his talents i just dont buy it , he has very little power in this era , he is just to small.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterAli was faster and would out jab him and frustrate Wlad causing him to make mistakes which Ali would make Wlad pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlCircle them if he did that he wouldnt reach them , he would be outjabbed.Clay was great in his era , the end !Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
The closest person to Ali that Marciano fought that resembled him in any way was a worn out Ezzard Charles. I think a prime Charles beats the pants off Marciano. Lets face it the man had a 67 inch reach which is an inch longer then Hatton. He was getting destroyed by Walcott who was probably in his late 40’s before he landed the Suzi Q when Joe stepped in to throw his own hook. Ali would never make that kind of mistake after dominating the fight being flat footed in the pocket. Not a chance. Did Maciano ever see Ali’s kind of lateral movement over his career? No and he would think he was fighting a crowd when Ali started to move. I only see two men with a time machine able to beat Ali and neither has his initials. White towel is thrown in on this one.
It makes me laugh too that after you yourself said Ali would beat Marciano, you then agreed with the Philosopher's statement which lists Marciano as one of the people who could beat Ali.... :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlThis is a good point , it makes me laugh when Clay fans think he could have beaten anyone or any era.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
A followup question would be:
Why do people get so defensive, and take it as a slight to the great Marciano, when it is said that he would lose to Ali?
As was mentioned before, Ali outweighed Marciano by almost 40 pounds, had a 4-inch advantage in height, and far outreached Rocky. The physical differences alone are significant. Add to that the difference in speed, which Ali clearly had over Rocky... and it's not a reach to say Ali would beat him. Don't forget Ali had a pretty good chin, also.
It's not a knock on Marciano... it's just two different eras of boxing. By the same token, would Ali sweep through the Tysons, the Lewises, and the Klitschkos? Most likely not. Different eras... different sizes of heavyweights.
Picking Ali over Marciano is neither a slight on Marciano, nor an enshrinement of Ali.
It is one of the most befuddling things to me to hear anybody say Marciano would beat Ali any more than 1/10 times.
Looking at all physical attributes and skill attributes, Ali wins in almost every department. Marciano had the power edge and that is about it..This would be countered by MAli's chin
(on the VERY rare occasion that Marciano would land)
yes good poınt mate. ıt was a rıppıng shot too. but ıt was the last one walcott landed for the next 13 rounds. Archıe Moore saıd after the fıght wıth Rocky that ıt was fuckıng ımpossıble to hıt hım wıth the left hook. I'll take hıs word for ıt mate ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlDidnt Joe Walcott drop Rocky with a left hook ?Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
this is an excellent post-- i think ali would have beaten the k boys the same way holmes beat cooney---yes they would always be a threat like cooney landed some wicked shots but holmes was too refined, too clever. Ali would stop the k boys on exhaustion. Look how wlad collapsed in exhaustion after being pushed a bit by a chubby brewster a few rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by master