The Global Warming crowd is at war....with the poor

Several scientist believe in Anthropogenic Global Warming and say the affects will be terrible for everyone if we don't act immediately. Al Gore and other Alarmists have suggested certain actions to slow down or revert the effects of Anthropogenic Global Warming. These actions are fine and dandy for the leerjet liberal Al Gore, but if given the once over by a regular everyday citizen you will quickly see that this the true "Class Warfare".

The "Greenies" propose nothing cost effective to replace oil & gas. Wind farms, solar energy, etc are useless in providing energy to the masses. Excessive taxation and regulation makes fuel more expensive and inflate the prices of food & other products taking a big chunk out of the pockets of blue collar workers and hell in some cases these solutions cost those same workers their jobs!

Its easy for Al Gore to fly all over giving speeches and touting the fact he buys carbon offsets (from a company he owns) after his family made all their wealth via Occidental Petroleum but when we're talking about real people who drive to work, who buy groceries, who live on a budget....these Global Warming "solutions" are going to keep them struggling paycheck to paycheck. Also this Global Warming bullcrap is a neverending cause, it wouldn't end if we all stopped using gas & oil this very second...it is a means of keeping the wealthy wealthy & the poor poor & I am of course not shocked that the media and the politicians have been so quiet about the real life effects these rules, regulations, and legislation has on the normal working public. I'm not saying we must pollute the entire world, but too far is too far & the Global Warming crowd has gone too far.

:los:

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Several scientist believe in Anthropogenic Global Warming and say the affects will be terrible for everyone if we don't act immediately. Al Gore and other Alarmists have suggested certain actions to slow down or revert the effects of Anthropogenic Global Warming. These actions are fine and dandy for the leerjet liberal Al Gore, but if given the once over by a regular everyday citizen you will quickly see that this the true "Class Warfare".

The "Greenies" propose nothing cost effective to replace oil & gas. Wind farms, solar energy, etc are useless in providing energy to the masses. Excessive taxation and regulation makes fuel more expensive and inflate the prices of food & other products taking a big chunk out of the pockets of blue collar workers and hell in some cases these solutions cost those same workers their jobs!

Its easy for Al Gore to fly all over giving speeches and touting the fact he buys carbon offsets (from a company he owns) after his family made all their wealth via Occidental Petroleum but when we're talking about real people who drive to work, who buy groceries, who live on a budget....these Global Warming "solutions" are going to keep them struggling paycheck to paycheck. Also this Global Warming bullcrap is a neverending cause, it wouldn't end if we all stopped using gas & oil this very second...it is a means of keeping the wealthy wealthy & the poor poor & I am of course not shocked that the media and the politicians have been so quiet about the real life effects these rules, regulations, and legislation has on the normal working public. I'm not saying we must pollute the entire world, but too far is too far & the Global Warming crowd has gone too far.

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I'm not a Gore fan, nor do I think the end of the world is upon us, at least by climate change. "The Day After Tomorrow" was entertaining with the special effects and all, but it's just a movie, and the day after tomorrow we'll be posting on here like every other day.

But I disagree with the statement that "Wind farms, solar energy, etc are useless in providing energy to the masses". Solar panels are a proven and effective technology, and as with every fairly new technology, the prices are going down and availability is going up. Wind farms are sprouting up with more and more frequency. Probably more so in other countries than in the U.S., and that's saying something right there.

The idea that these renewable resources are "useless" is the preferred agenda pushed by the oil, gas and coal communities. Huge financial interests are at stake, so of course what oilman in his right mind is going to admit to other technologies.

And of course, global warming and the continued pollution of the Earth would not stop if we stopped using oil and gas "this very second", as you put it. But it would certainly slow down. The switch to renewable resources will never be an abrupt process... that would be ludicrous. But it must start from somewhere and have a measurable progression.

And not only do we pollute more with oil, but we're talking about a finite resource. We humans tend to think short term, only about our own lifetimes. But the responsible viewpoint is to think about future generations. I've read credible articles where experts estimate the availability of oil to last until around the year 2050, given our current rate of consumption.

There's two ways to view this. One is to not believe it. After all, how can we be sure that these estimates are based on true scientific facts? The other is to say, "fine, but I don't care." That, I believe is the shortsighted viewpoint.

Some people will always overreact to issues, whether it be gun control, or global warming. They are the hysterical naysayers, finding the black lining in every cloud. But there are more intelligent minds out there, who also do not stick their heads in the sand, making believe everything's alright, because really it isn't. The proper mentality is to accept that there is a problem, and calmly and rationally evaluate and figure out ways to best deal with it.

The global warming alarmist agenda is not to offer alternatives. Wind, Solar, biofuels...these things simply cannot do the job of Nuclear, Coal, Oil, & Gas that's just a fact otherwise companies specializing in alternative energy sources would be booming without government hand outs. Solar energy alone creates a tone of pollution, how do you think they make those panels? Lithium Ion batteries are also pretty damned toxic as are those curly-q lightbulbs which not only contain mercury but put out a lot more UV rays which will give you cancer.

The agenda is to drive up the cost of heating your home, using appliances, cool your home, fill your gas tank, etc. Which in turn makes the price of food go up because how do we transport those goods from farms to market? Who does that hurt most? Who has the least ammount of disposable income Tito? The 1% won't give a shit, they'll read their Wall Street Journal while sitting on their gold plated toilets & not give a good God damn about an extra few dollars here & there....but the average Joe trying to put food on the table day in and day out...it'll put a hurting on his family. Also if other nations are held to the same "Green Police" Global Warming Alarmist standard that America is subject to then you're keeping people in the 3rd World stuck in the 3rd World.

You want to help people globally how about medicine & fresh water for people in Africa!

I don't really have a huge issue with the AWG science crowd. The earth's climate is and has always been fluid. We have been on a warming trend ever since the last ice age and yes humans have an effect on the climate. The questions to me that need more research is how much effect do we have, is this warming effect really the cataclysmic event some would have you believe and can we actually do anything about it now?

I do have an issue with politicians who use AWG studies not to improve the Earth but to switch money from an industry that does'nt support them to an industry that does. If alternative energy sources are viable, cost effective and desired then they will make it on their own merit and don't need huge subisdies.

Why during blizzards do newscasters always remind people to check & make sure friends & loved ones have heat? Why during hot summers do the same newscasters remind people to stay inside, and keep in the air conditioning? Is it because heat & AC save lives? Heat & AC are necessities in such inclimate weather and the Global Warming people want those to be harder to get & more expensive to operate.

I'm all for helping people in Africa. But that isn't really a polarizing issue, is it?

When you stick the word "alarmist" right after the words "global warming", you are picking on the very slice of the environmentalist population I said are hopeless fanatics. So you're picking the wrong argument there. I'm against extremist views of any kind. And I never claimed that renewable resources could completely replace the traditional fossil fuels. Again, we're going to the extremes. But you're skewing the argument when you talk about the pollution caused by manufacturing solar panels.

C'mon Lyle... you know better than that. You're talking a one-time manufacturing process for a maintenance-free solar panel that will be providing renewable energy for the life of the panel. How does that even begin to compare with the pollution caused by the burning of oil and coal? Seriously??

Take a moment and think about it. In my argument, I'm not advocating running out into the streets and picketing every refinery and coal mine worldwide. I'm not advocating needless panic and fanatical viewpoints where "A" is all good.... "B" is all evil.... or viceversa. Whereas you come across as attacking anything that will put a dent into the multi-trillion dollar monster which is the oil and coal industry.

Regardless of how shitty you feel Obama is as President..... do you think Georgie Bush actually gave a flying shit about anything other than filling his own pockets with money from oil interests, at the expense of any other promising technology trying to pry its way in?

You talk about alternative energy sources "booming" without government handouts if they were in fact viable alternatives. Really?? For a person mistrustful of the government for other reasons, you are being a bit naive if you think for minute that the government doesn't "discourage" cheaper, cleaner alternatives to fossil fuels. Tell me I'm wrong on that assumption..... please.

Why should helping people be polarizing? The point is people are dying of dysentery and it doesn't have to be the case. People are still dying of Polio in Afghanistan & Pakistan as tribal leaders won't allow for vaccinations because the shots turn their women into whores....these are diseases that can be cured & prevented but no we want to focus on something which MAY or MAY NOT be happening and which we MAY or MAY NOT be able to prevent....do you see the problem here? We know for a fact we can save lives and yet we're focused on hurting the poor & middle class....I would have thought someone who was for more progressive means of taxation would no doubt see how illogical the Anthropogenic Global Warming agenda is. These people oppose the Keystone Pipeline for environmental reasons and then when they were appeased about how safe the pipeline would be they opposed it all the same just because it would allow for the consumption of fuel.....fuel that would be refined & used anyway. Fuel that would provide jobs & more than likely lower the cost of gas....does that not strike you as just completely idiotic and morally corrupt?

Again about George W. Bush, NEWSFLASH he's not President anymore!!! Fucking get over it!!! I wish he was President again #1 He would actually be held responsible for his actions and #2 He'd probably do a better job than Obama.

Not surprisingly, you missed my first point. Forget Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan. 99.9999% of the civilized world agrees that something should be done to combat disease and famine in those countries... the only issues are the "how" and the amount of money to spend.

Back to the point.... global warming. A doomsday prophecy for a hysterical some.... a meaningless, annoying gnat of an issue to be swatted for insensitive others.... and a real problem which requires further studies and solutions for the remaining logical population (my group ;D ). So the environmental "alarmists" were "appeased" about how safe the Keystone Pipeline would be? Only to oppose it now because it would "allow for the consumption of fuel"? (Your words). Hmm... sounds fishy to me.

When did this "appeasement" happen? Were all concerns regarding spills in sensitive areas, potentially caused by seismic activity.... were all concerns regarding greenhouse emissions from the extraction of petroleum from tar sands..... were all those concerns officially laid to rest? What day did that happen? I mean... an event like that would've made headlines across the country: "Keystone Pipeline declared no longer a threat to the environment or global warming!" Details at 11.

And now these bad alarmists all of sudden are taking it all back... their approval, I mean... because the pipeline is going to provide oil for consumption. The bastards!!

And all of this happening against the ever present backdrop of the human race squeezing the living shit out of every reachable shale rock for every drop of oil that can be squeezed, while at the same time brushing aside any alternatives that might lower the multi-billion dollar profits made by the oil moguls by a couple of percentage points.

Did you use the phrase "idiotic and morally corrupt"?
Would you care to dust it off again?

And yeah..... Bush is long gone (thank God).
Jed Clampett with a college degree and a famous daddy.

Do you understand who we buy gas & oil from because of these assholes won't allow for drilling or refining???

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Do you understand who we buy gas & oil from because of these assholes won't allow for drilling or refining???

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Venezuela?

Kidding. I know where you're coming from. All the more reason to go full speed ahead on developing alternative energy. I know it won't completely substitute oil, but every little bit helps. For the time being, yes... we need to keep pumping from "friendly" places. No one enjoys depending even one bit on the Arab nations for oil. We got boocoo drilling rigs in the Gulf... and if we can responsibly extract oil from Canada, so be it.

My only point is we can't go to sleep on knowing we're OK on oil for the time being.
We got to think about the future, both ours and future generations.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Do you understand who we buy gas & oil from because of these assholes won't allow for drilling or refining???

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Venezuela?

Kidding. I know where you're coming from. All the more reason to go full speed ahead on developing alternative energy. I know it won't completely substitute oil, but every little bit helps. For the time being, yes... we need to keep pumping from "friendly" places. No one enjoys depending even one bit on the Arab nations for oil. We got boocoo drilling rigs in the Gulf... and if we can responsibly extract oil from Canada, so be it.

My only point is we can't go to sleep on knowing we're OK on oil for the time being.
We got to think about the future, both ours and future generations.

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beaucoup*

The Keystone pipeline is supposed to get oil from Canada damnit! And the Greenies oppose it.

We need to cut off any & all funding that props up the Saudi Royal Family...they aren't good people. America shouldn't be an "Oil Prude" nation, we expect others to drill & refine, why don't we do it ourselves? We've got the technology, we've got the oil & gas.

Alternative energy is a hoax why else would the Kennedy's (who loooove them some Global Warming) keep windfarms away from their property? If it would help save the Earth one would think they would accept those big ass wind turbines gladly, but they didn't. Al Gore doesn't use alternative energy to go take him to give speeches, why is that? Al Gore has a HUGE carbon footprint but we're supposed to think he's out to save the world with his bullshit power points presentation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rweblFwt-BM

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Do you understand who we buy gas & oil from because of these assholes won't allow for drilling or refining???

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Venezuela?

Kidding. I know where you're coming from. All the more reason to go full speed ahead on developing alternative energy. I know it won't completely substitute oil, but every little bit helps. For the time being, yes... we need to keep pumping from "friendly" places. No one enjoys depending even one bit on the Arab nations for oil. We got boocoo drilling rigs in the Gulf... and if we can responsibly extract oil from Canada, so be it.

My only point is we can't go to sleep on knowing we're OK on oil for the time being.
We got to think about the future, both ours and future generations.

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beaucoup*

The Keystone pipeline is supposed to get oil from Canada damnit! (I said "responsibly". Did that part just slip through the cracks? I know where the Keystone pipeline originates). And the Greenies oppose it.

We need to cut off any & all funding that props up the Saudi Royal Family...they aren't good people. America shouldn't be an "Oil Prude" nation, we expect others to drill & refine, why don't we do it ourselves? We've got the technology, we've got the oil & gas. (Yeah... everybody else is doing it. So let's just continue irresponsibly squeezing the living shit out the last ounce of oil left on the planet. Who gives a flying fuck about future generations? Drill away!!!)

Alternative energy is a hoax why else would the Kennedy's (who loooove them some Global Warming) keep windfarms away from their property? (Uhhh.... because they're filthy rich and could give 3 shits about saving money on energy? Because windfarms aren't aesthetically appealing? Just a thought). If it would help save the Earth one would think they would accept those big ass wind turbines gladly, but they didn't. Al Gore doesn't use alternative energy to go take him to give speeches, why is that? Al Gore has a HUGE carbon footprint but we're supposed to think he's out to save the world with his bullshit power points presentation? (Al Gore, Al Gore, Al Gore. Let's just pick out some "easy-to-shit-on" clown and make him the poster boy for environmentalists. THAT way, we can shit on the environment and lump Al Gore with anyone who speaks up about it. Good strategy, by the way).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rweblFwt-BM

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You're reaching, but ok...

(Comments above)

The problem with the Keystone pipeline is that it is meant to move oil to ports so that it can be sold abroad; it by passes US refineries.
I quit taking 'global warming' seriously when I read that buying 'carbon credits' was forecast to become a $3trillion industry.

How are we supposed to "responsibly" transport the oil sands from Canada to the refineries in the US? Is a pipeline irresponsible? I don't believe it is, i think it's a perfectly reasonable & rational way to transport the oil.

Again "irresponsibly" what's irresponsible about drilling in the United States? Is it easier or harder to clean up an oil spill that happens on land as opposed to one that happens a few miles underwater in the Gulf? Also once again Alternative fuels aren't effective enough or cheap enough.

Windfarms don't "save money" on energy & the Kennedy family have been some of the biggest supporters of "Green Energy"...windfarms are good enough for the Bourgeous but not good enough for the Elites, typical liberalism.

Al Gore is the poster child for Anthropogenic Global Warming, he has lied about it, made millions off it, and yet continues to fly around in his jet going from college to college to spread this horse shit to young idiot students who buy it hook line & sinker! That is why I constantly bring up Al Gore! Everyone else is just attempting to be another Al Gore.


When we talk about Alternative Fuels you have to understand at this moment right now the world (not just the United States) the WORLD runs on gas & oil. Complaining that there are no alternatives that are efficient enough or cheap enough at the moment is like cursing at a Neaderthal for using fire when you think he should use a light bulb....the technology is being worked on, it's having the ever living shit subsidized out of it and it's simply not ready so why waste money putting these bullshit alternatives that aren't good enough into place when more people can be helped with gas & oil.

Also the idea of "fossil fuels" is pretty laughable as well, they are simple abiotic hydrocarbons....how many fucking dinosaurs would it have taken to create the 18.83 million barrels of oil that the United States uses in 1 day or the 85 million barrels the entire World uses in one day? You think solar & wind can put a dent in that kind of usage???

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

The problem with the Keystone pipeline is that it is meant to move oil to ports so that it can be sold abroad; it by passes US refineries.
I quit taking 'global warming' seriously when I read that buying 'carbon credits' was forecast to become a $3trillion industry.

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The oil sands move from Alberta to refineries in Illinois & Oklahoma and to the Gulf Coast where it can be sold on the World Market. The United States already buys oil from Canada, we'd more than likely get a better deal for having the pipeline to the ports & refineries, but at the end of the day the oil is Canada's and they can sell it on the World Market if they so choose.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

The problem with the Keystone pipeline is that it is meant to move oil to ports so that it can be sold abroad; it by passes US refineries.
I quit taking 'global warming' seriously when I read that buying 'carbon credits' was forecast to become a $3trillion industry.

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The oil sands move from Alberta to refineries in Illinois & Oklahoma and to the Gulf Coast where it can be sold on the World Market. The United States already buys oil from Canada, we'd more than likely get a better deal for having the pipeline to the ports & refineries, but at the end of the day the oil is Canada's and they can sell it on the World Market if they so choose.

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Global warming is a fact guys whether suits play politics with it or not and no where is it more evident then where I live and further north. Having said that I do not see the demand of fossil fuels dying off anytime soon when India and China are bursting at the seams. Got mixed feelings about the pipe line and selling our oil to the open market and helping to fuel those that hate North America. I find myself becoming more and more of an isolationist when thinking about the generations that follow us. Another part of me wishes we would just run out.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

The problem with the Keystone pipeline is that it is meant to move oil to ports so that it can be sold abroad; it by passes US refineries.
I quit taking 'global warming' seriously when I read that buying 'carbon credits' was forecast to become a $3trillion industry.

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The oil sands move from Alberta to refineries in Illinois & Oklahoma and to the Gulf Coast where it can be sold on the World Market. The United States already buys oil from Canada, we'd more than likely get a better deal for having the pipeline to the ports & refineries, but at the end of the day the oil is Canada's and they can sell it on the World Market if they so choose.

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Global warming is a fact guys whether suits play politics with it or not and no where is it more evident then where I live and further north. Having said that I do not see the demand of fossil fuels dying off anytime soon when India and China are bursting at the seams. Got mixed feelings about the pipe line and selling our oil to the open market and helping to fuel those that hate North America. I find myself becoming more and more of an isolationist when thinking about the generations that follow us. Another part of me wishes we would just run out.

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Nice try trying to talk some sense into the pro-oil crowd, @IamInuit . But to paraphrase Lyle from another thread, it's like pissing into the wind. You can bury your head in the sand all you want, but global warming is a fact. Would it still be occuring without human intervention? Yes. Are we making it worse to some degree by being irresponsible with the environment? Hell yes. That's all that need be said. The rest is just playing politics, as you said.

#1 The Earth's climate has never been static

#2 Climategate should have ended this farce once and for all

#3 If the sun rises tomorrow people will shout "GLOBAL WARMING!"....and they'll do the same if it doesn't

#4 The North might be losing ice, but....
Antarctic Sea Ice Sets Another Record - Forbes Anarctica seems to be adding more

#5 The Milankovich Cycles & Orbital Forcing have an impact as does the Sun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MvUE2VSBO8

#6 Humans produce 4% of the CO2 in the atmosphere....4%. So 4% has doomed us all to death? Would 3.9% be better? Would 3% be better? Would it be enough to stop Anthropogenic Global Warming? Hell in the 1970's people thought we were headed for a new ice age, so that goes to show you what these dopey scientist know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGodDOLvBxw

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

#4 The North might be losing ice, but....
Antarctic Sea Ice Sets Another Record - Forbes Anarctica seems to be adding more

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Ahh yes... an article from James Taylor, contributor to Forbes and author of numerous articles attacking those who believe in global warming. At least now I know where your use of the word "alarmists" comes from.

;)

I'll just paraphrase Einstein and agree that although the world around us continues to change, the thinking of mankind does not.

There is no such thing as the global warming crowd because despite wanting to portray scientists as being dopey, the huge majority of the scientific community are not dopey and agree that global warming is a fact, and agree that mankinds reliance on fossil fuels, undoubtedly exacerbates the problem. The fact that gas and oil reserves are running out just gives huge energy companies more leverage to screw the poor with ridiculous price hikes. Poor people in rural areas are again screwed by huge price rises for fuel which they need for transport, farm machinery and generators. Becoming self sufficient and using geothermal heating, better insulation and more renewable sources of energy is a way of removing oneself from the tyranny of multinational power companies. Green energy is the future and for many it is already just a philosophy and way of life and has been for years.

They cant tax the air we breathe, so they tax our farts n emissions instead.

The idea that we are on the cusp of running out of oil, natural gas or coal is not really true. Growing markets such as China and India are increasing the demand for the resources and the western world is experiencing a bottle-necking when it comes to refining but there is a whole lot of fossil fuels yet to be tapped.

Why We'll Never Run Out of Oil - Reason.com

Common sense says and nature points to everything having a reason.

I wonder if science has thrown enough millions at the question; to prove that oil isnt down there for some reason other than for us? So that now some pratt in a suit and someone who thinks they know best from a university who has been taught what to think, can tell us all it isnt there for a natural lubricant or barrier maybe both.

And here we are on the surface of a rock that moves around on a bed of molten lava.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

The problem with the Keystone pipeline is that it is meant to move oil to ports so that it can be sold abroad; it by passes US refineries.
I quit taking 'global warming' seriously when I read that buying 'carbon credits' was forecast to become a $3trillion industry.

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The oil sands move from Alberta to refineries in Illinois & Oklahoma and to the Gulf Coast where it can be sold on the World Market. The United States already buys oil from Canada, we'd more than likely get a better deal for having the pipeline to the ports & refineries, but at the end of the day the oil is Canada's and they can sell it on the World Market if they so choose.

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Global warming is a fact guys whether suits play politics with it or not and no where is it more evident then where I live and further north. Having said that I do not see the demand of fossil fuels dying off anytime soon when India and China are bursting at the seams. Got mixed feelings about the pipe line and selling our oil to the open market and helping to fuel those that hate North America. I find myself becoming more and more of an isolationist when thinking about the generations that follow us. Another part of me wishes we would just run out.

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Nice try trying to talk some sense into the pro-oil crowd, @IamInuit . But to paraphrase Lyle from another thread, it's like pissing into the wind. You can bury your head in the sand all you want, but global warming is a fact. Would it still be occuring without human intervention? Yes. Are we making it worse to some degree by being irresponsible with the environment? Hell yes. That's all that need be said. The rest is just playing politics, as you said.

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I could be wrong but I don't think anyone credible is arguing against global warming. The earth has been warming since the last ice age ended. The question is how much do humans affect the warming and specifically the use of fossil fuels. Doom and gloom science is not something that is new. Overpopulation, worldwide starvation and the ozone layer were all supposed to end the Earth decades ago. Amazingly we keep on going around the sun day after day.

At this moment in time people are de baiting, do they want Wind Turbines in parts of Wales, why not
it's not as if they make you glow in the dark.;D

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

The idea that we are on the cusp of running out of oil, natural gas or coal is not really true. Growing markets such as China and India are increasing the demand for the resources and the western world is experiencing a bottle-necking when it comes to refining but there is a whole lot of fossil fuels yet to be tapped.

Why We'll Never Run Out of Oil - Reason.com

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For every pro-drilling article you can post saying we'll never run out of oil, I can probably post one that says we're depleting the world's supplies. Depends on who's writing, and what their personal interests are.

Saying we'll "never" run out of oil, on the weight of the words alone, seems a bit ludicrous. Oil is a finite resource, which is consumed at a far higher rate than it will ever be replenished. Add to that the still to be established demand from developing giants such as China, as you yourself mentioned, and you have a huge increase in daily demand.

Economists can play games all day long with talks of bottlenecks and "turning down the faucets" in order to raise prices, all tied to the usual greedy, shitty politics we humans like to play with everything. But fact of the matter is..... demand is demand. We're still consuming at an alarming rate. And we're constantly under pressure to find new oil fields, and come up with viable technology to squeeze oil from previously ignored sources. In the end, we're still pumping gas.... whether at $4 a gallon, or $15 a gallon.

It's very convenient for those who don't give a shit about the environment or finite oil resources to lump everyone else into "cute-named" groups, such as "alarmists" and "doomsdayers". It's also lazy and irresponsible.

Tito,

I get the feeling you didn't read the article b/c the title is a bit tongue in cheek furthermore Reason internally source's all their documents. In short Libertarians deal with facts and logic unlike the other two major parties. They do a pretty good job of showing how we have allegedly been about to run out of oil multiple times only to find new deposits and new technologies to get resources previously believed out of reach. The bottlenecking is not some political game it is a real result of refineries being closed in the last 12 months for a variety of reasons which is slowing the supply side and causing the current spike in prices. I'm not sure if your last bit is pointed at me or not but I probably spend more time in the woods than most on this board and have a real vested interest in the environment and conservation. I don't worry about reports on dwindling oil reserves b/c it is an attempt to manufacture a false crisis. So yeah there is a certain level of doomsday proponents and alarmists out there beating the drum not altruistically but to further their own interests.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

For every pro-drilling article you can post saying we'll never run out of oil, I can probably post one that says we're depleting the world's supplies. Depends on who's writing, and what their personal interests are.

Saying we'll "never" run out of oil, on the weight of the words alone, seems a bit ludicrous. Oil is a finite resource, which is consumed at a far higher rate than it will ever be replenished. Add to that the still to be established demand from developing giants such as China, as you yourself mentioned, and you have a huge increase in daily demand.

Economists can play games all day long with talks of bottlenecks and "turning down the faucets" in order to raise prices, all tied to the usual greedy, shitty politics we humans like to play with everything. But fact of the matter is..... demand is demand. We're still consuming at an alarming rate. And we're constantly under pressure to find new oil fields, and come up with viable technology to squeeze oil from previously ignored sources. In the end, we're still pumping gas.... whether at $4 a gallon, or $15 a gallon.

It's very convenient for those who don't give a shit about the environment or finite oil resources to lump everyone else into "cute-named" groups, such as "alarmists" and "doomsdayers". It's also lazy and irresponsible.

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So WHEN will we run out of oil then? Next year? 5 years from now? 10? 50? 100? 1,000? 10,000 years? Since the day oil was first found & put to use people have said we're going to run out and at this point they have the same "batting average" as the people who have predicted "The Rapture"....so you can understand my being hesitant to side with them.

My view on the subject is this: if you want to find alternative fuel sources fine but do not expect me to use them if they are not cheap & effective, also I do not wish for my government to subsidize such flights of fancy when they are currently not practical. It is a waste of time and money and while there is still starvation & disease we should focus on those issues...perhaps better schools as well...as those things might one day lead to the discovery of a good source of alternative fuel. All the Anthropogenic Global Warming eggheads are doing these days is leeching off of government grants, lining the pockets of politicians with their bullshit boondoggle IPO's, and hurting the average person in the wallet. Gas is over $4/gallon in LA....nice stuff.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Tito,

I get the feeling you didn't read the article b/c the title is a bit tongue in cheek furthermore Reason internally source's all their documents. In short Libertarians deal with facts and logic unlike the other two major parties. They do a pretty good job of showing how we have allegedly been about to run out of oil multiple times only to find new deposits and new technologies to get resources previously believed out of reach. The bottlenecking is not some political game it is a real result of refineries being closed in the last 12 months for a variety of reasons which is slowing the supply side and causing the current spike in prices. I'm not sure if your last bit is pointed at me or not but I probably spend more time in the woods than most on this board and have a real vested interest in the environment and conservation. I don't worry about reports on dwindling oil reserves b/c it is an attempt to manufacture a false crisis. So yeah there is a certain level of doomsday proponents and alarmists out there beating the drum not altruistically but to further their own interests.

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It's like many other issues, VC. Unfortunately, there's always going to be the fanatical "alarmists" and "doomsayers" that ruin the argument for everyone else. AND... provide oil companies and anti-environmentalists with good ammunition with which to fire back at the responsible people who just want their points to be heard. And while some bottlenecks may be in fact due to supply problems at some point.... there's been other, well-documented instances where oil "shortages" are nothing but attempts by OPEC to control prices for their own greedy capital gains.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

So WHEN will we run out of oil then? Next year? 5 years from now? 10? 50? 100? 1,000? 10,000 years? Since the day oil was first found & put to use people have said we're going to run out and at this point they have the same "batting average" as the people who have predicted "The Rapture"....so you can understand my being hesitant to side with them.

My view on the subject is this: if you want to find alternative fuel sources fine but do not expect me to use them if they are not cheap & effective, also I do not wish for my government to subsidize such flights of fancy when they are currently not practical. It is a waste of time and money and while there is still starvation & disease we should focus on those issues...perhaps better schools as well...as those things might one day lead to the discovery of a good source of alternative fuel. All the Anthropogenic Global Warming eggheads are doing these days is leeching off of government grants, lining the pockets of politicians with their bullshit boondoggle IPO's, and hurting the average person in the wallet. Gas is over $4/gallon in LA....nice stuff.

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Leave out the "next year", 5 years, 1,000 years, and the 10,000 years.... and the real number is anybody's guess, Lyle. I can only talk about what I've read in supposedly neutral publications. I read that at the current rate of consumption, with most other factors considered, we could be looking at a major dropoff in "readily obtainable" oil by the decade of the 2050's. Who knows?

And please read the following statement carefully: I too do not wish to pay for alternative energy sources that are not cheap and effective. That doesn't mean I don't want research and development to continue to try and make alternative energy sources cheap and effective.

Please read the following statement carefully also: I too do not wish for massive government subsidies to pursue these alternative fuels at the expense of other causes that need money. BUT... I also do not wish for development of these alternatives to be "discouraged" by the mighty financial powers that represent oil interests. Let's not be naive here. It is not in Exxon's best interests for some scientist and/or engineer to suddenly discover and develop a technology that allows us to free ourselves from our addiction to oil.

One shouldn't worry about "Big Oil" if their product will eventually run out, thatmeans eventually there will be no such thing as "Big Oil" much as there are no people using whale oil lamps anymore. In fact Big Oil, might lead the way in manufacturing alternative fuels so they can continue selling energy to the people....would that not make the most sense???

Opinions may differ on this, but I'd rather not wait until oil runs out, or begins to dwindle.... (OR... becomes so expensive to extract that we find ourselves paying $50 a gallon). I'd rather continue aggresively on developing alternative energy sources now, while we can still consume oil relatively cheaply and easily. That way, we can someday transition off oil, while still maintaining enough reserves to fall back on.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Opinions may differ on this, but I'd rather not wait until oil runs out, or begins to dwindle.... (OR... becomes so expensive to extract that we find ourselves paying $50 a gallon). I'd rather continue aggresively on developing alternative energy sources now, while we can still consume oil relatively cheaply and easily. That way, we can someday transition off oil, while still maintaining enough reserves to fall back on.

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Natural Gas is a cheap alternative and the United States has the most of it & it's cleaner fuel than oil or coal & fairly cheap....why not start there as opposed to some hairbrained idea about windmills?

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Opinions may differ on this, but I'd rather not wait until oil runs out, or begins to dwindle.... (OR... becomes so expensive to extract that we find ourselves paying $50 a gallon). I'd rather continue aggresively on developing alternative energy sources now, while we can still consume oil relatively cheaply and easily. That way, we can someday transition off oil, while still maintaining enough reserves to fall back on.

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Natural Gas is a cheap alternative and the United States has the most of it & it's cleaner fuel than oil or coal & fairly cheap....why not start there as opposed to some hairbrained idea about windmills?

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I'm actually pro-natural gas. I'm also in favor of some types of biofuels (those derived from waste, rather than those based on food crops, such as corn). Whatever helps to alleviate our dependence on oil.

Not blind to the fact that oil plays a huge part in global politics, I would even venture to say that it would be advantageous for the U.S. to develop alternative fuels and save their own oil reserves as a hedge against foreign oil.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I'm actually pro-natural gas. I'm also in favor of some types of biofuels (those derived from waste, rather than those based on food crops, such as corn). Whatever helps to alleviate our dependence on oil.

Not blind to the fact that oil plays a huge part in global politics, I would even venture to say that it would be advantageous for the U.S. to develop alternative fuels and save their own oil reserves as a hedge against foreign oil.

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The real benefit would be telling the entire middle east that we no longer give a shit if they murder each other indefinitely and fuck off.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I'm actually pro-natural gas. I'm also in favor of some types of biofuels (those derived from waste, rather than those based on food crops, such as corn). Whatever helps to alleviate our dependence on oil.

Not blind to the fact that oil plays a huge part in global politics, I would even venture to say that it would be advantageous for the U.S. to develop alternative fuels and save their own oil reserves as a hedge against foreign oil.

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The real benefit would be telling the entire middle east that we no longer give a shit if they murder each other indefinitely and fuck off.

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Exactly. They would no longer have anything we need.
And by not needing anything they own... we wouldn't need to interfere in their business... and we wouldn't be seen as bad guys anymore.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I'm actually pro-natural gas. I'm also in favor of some types of biofuels (those derived from waste, rather than those based on food crops, such as corn). Whatever helps to alleviate our dependence on oil.

Not blind to the fact that oil plays a huge part in global politics, I would even venture to say that it would be advantageous for the U.S. to develop alternative fuels and save their own oil reserves as a hedge against foreign oil.

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The real benefit would be telling the entire middle east that we no longer give a shit if they murder each other indefinitely and fuck off.

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Exactly. They would no longer have anything we need.
And by not needing anything they own... we wouldn't need to interfere in their business... and we wouldn't be seen as bad guys anymore.

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Slow down. Don't underestimate the huge case of penis envy found in the fertile crescent. Nothing rally's the jihadis like a good hate the Great American Satan pep song.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I'm actually pro-natural gas. I'm also in favor of some types of biofuels (those derived from waste, rather than those based on food crops, such as corn). Whatever helps to alleviate our dependence on oil.

Not blind to the fact that oil plays a huge part in global politics, I would even venture to say that it would be advantageous for the U.S. to develop alternative fuels and save their own oil reserves as a hedge against foreign oil.

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The real benefit would be telling the entire middle east that we no longer give a shit if they murder each other indefinitely and fuck off.

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Exactly. They would no longer have anything we need.
And by not needing anything they own... we wouldn't need to interfere in their business... and we wouldn't be seen as bad guys anymore.

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Slow down. Don't underestimate the huge case of penis envy found in the fertile crescent. Nothing rally's the jihadis like a good hate the Great American Satan pep song.

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Yeah, they'd find some other reason or cause.
Like the decadent Western civilization corrupting their women to the point where they're now showing some ankle.