Ali couldn't fight, are you effin' kiddin' me ?!!

I mean, sure, he never went to the body at all, and y'know I love a good body puncher, but so what?
He didn't NEED to go to the body.

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n...hammad_Ali.jpg

...and maybe he had no power, and no aggressiveness, ALWAYS looking to have people chase him around the ring.
WHY?
Why should a 6'3" 216 lb man give up ground and allow himself to be chased by a 5'11" 205 lb man with only 1 punch in his arsenal: the left hook.
It's not like he was scared of little Smokin' Joe, was he, that's not why the big fast man was always giving up ground and running away from the little slow guy who only had a left hook, was he?
That short stubby heavyweight always came to fight, not run away from his opponents.
This is a fight, so stand and fight, for $#!t's sake !

...and so what if he never learned how to block a left jab properly, like what Ken Norton and Jimmy Young gave him trouble with, and big deal if he never was much of a combination puncher.

I have to admit though:
just what in the blue hell was up with all that nonsensical bouncing-around, poor excuse for footwork, hopping around the ring all the time, feet never planted properly to punch?

http://imgc.artprintimages.com/image...3-WCVE100Z.jpg

He didn't defend his body at all.
Hell, Ali GAVE his oppenent his body.
Like Antonio Margarito out-toughing guys, low on science but long on God-given toughness, that was Ali with his body: No defense at all.
He could just take more body-punishment than any other fighter without showing immediate effects.
It landed him in the hospital with bleeding kidneys after fights though, and led to his later renal problems.

Effin' PULLING BACK from punches ?! And right-hand-leads ?!! Hands way down at his hips?!!
Woo-hoo, Novices-R-Us !!! :D

Ali's clutch-and-grab was a clear pre-cursor to John Ruiz' action-packed style, John probably studied Ali to learn how to do it, especially Ali/Frazier II.
Ali sure was in his share of crap-fights. He just had much more personality and charisma than John Ruiz, so Ali gets away with the crap-fights, and The Quiet Man doesn't because his mouth wasn't loud enough to compensate.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images...jpg?1330703612

Given all this great credit for inventing the rope-a-dope?!
Yeah, great idea, I'll just lay up against these ropes here and let this big guy beat the ever-lovin' $#!t out of me for the next 20 minutes or so until he gets tired; then I'll get him !
Sure, real scientific there, pal.
That's the best answer the great "master-boxer" could come up with? What astounding ring-science!


People say he was this great scientific boxer, not a slugger, but a great boxer.
Actually he was a truly terrible boxer regarding technique and science. Did untold damage to thousands upon thousands of impressionable young boxers who tried to copy his absolutely horrendous technique which only worked for him because of God-given speed, athleticism, and toughness.

So terrible was his technique in fact, that it makes me wonder just how in the blue hell did this guy ever get anywhere in Boxing at all !!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradlee180

I mean, sure, he never went to the body at all, and y'know I love a good body puncher, but so what?
He didn't NEED to go to the body.

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n...hammad_Ali.jpg

...and maybe he had no power, and no aggressiveness, ALWAYS looking to have people chase him around the ring.
WHY?
Why should a 6'3" 216 lb man give up ground and allow himself to be chased by a 5'11" 205 lb man with only 1 punch in his arsenal: the left hook.
It's not like he was scared of little Smokin' Joe, was he, that's not why the big fast man was always giving up ground and running away from the little slow guy who only had a left hook, was he?
That short stubby heavyweight always came to fight, not run away from his opponents.
This is a fight, so stand and fight, for $#!t's sake !

...and so what if he never learned how to block a left jab properly, like what Ken Norton and Jimmy Young gave him trouble with, and big deal if he never was much of a combination puncher.

I have to admit though:
just what in the blue hell was up with all that nonsensical bouncing-around, poor excuse for footwork, hopping around the ring all the time, feet never planted properly to punch?

http://imgc.artprintimages.com/image...3-WCVE100Z.jpg

He didn't defend his body at all.
Hell, Ali GAVE his oppenent his body.
Like Antonio Margarito out-toughing guys, low on science but long on God-given toughness, that was Ali with his body: No defense at all.
He could just take more body-punishment than any other fighter without showing immediate effects.
It landed him in the hospital with bleeding kidneys after fights though, and led to his later renal problems.

Effin' PULLING BACK from punches ?! And right-hand-leads ?!! Hands way down at his hips?!!
Woo-hoo, Novices-R-Us !!! :D

Ali's clutch-and-grab was a clear pre-cursor to John Ruiz' action-packed style, John probably studied Ali to learn how to do it, especially Ali/Frazier II.
Ali sure was in his share of crap-fights. He just had much more personality and charisma than John Ruiz, so Ali gets away with the crap-fights, and The Quiet Man doesn't because his mouth wasn't loud enough to compensate.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images...jpg?1330703612

Given all this great credit for inventing the rope-a-dope?!
Yeah, great idea, I'll just lay up against these ropes here and let this big guy beat the ever-lovin' $#!t out of me for the next 20 minutes or so until he gets tired; then I'll get him !
Sure, real scientific there, pal.
That's the best answer the great "master-boxer" could come up with? What astounding ring-science!


People say he was this great scientific boxer, not a slugger, but a great boxer.
Actually he was a truly terrible boxer regarding technique and science. Did untold damage to thousands upon thousands of impressionable young boxers who tried to copy his absolutely horrendous technique which only worked for him because of God-given speed, athleticism, and toughness.

So terrible was his technique in fact, that it makes me wonder just how in the blue hell did this guy ever get anywhere in Boxing at all !!

---

I'm sick of you idiots.

Not because I love Ali, which I don't. But because I'm sick of this thread.

Put it is blog so no one can read it please.

Also, no one gives 2 fucks what you think about Ali, or anything else for that matter.

Jesus you're like echoes, echoing the same shit over and over.

Get original.

Some valid Ali points in there no question.
Ali had an Iron will and a cracking Jaw if you think about it which got him through some serious wars.

Other than that its a pretty weird post ... Each to there own though ... Its a boxing forum so People come here to voice their opinions, Right or Wrong ;-)

One thing though Bradlee... If you wanna see a boxing masterclass then try watching what Ali did to Cleveland Williams.

Ali at his devastating best ;-)

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

Good points...and to be honest the more - longer I have followed boxing I can just about Squeeze Ali into my All time top ten fighters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vendettos

I'm sick of you idiots.

Not because I love Ali, which I don't. But because I'm sick of this thread.

Put it is blog so no one can read it please.

Also, no one gives 2 fucks what you think about Ali, or anything else for that matter.

Jesus you're like echoes, echoing the same shit over and over.

Get original.

---

Hey, hey, hey, hey now, don't get all testy with the bradguy just because YOU got a problem with Muhammad Ali's station in life...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradlee180

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

---

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

Ali gets credit for inventing the rope-a-dope?! No he doesn't, what are you on about?

It's common knowledge that he got that from Archie Moore.
Moore called it. 'The Turtle', Ali named it the 'Rope-a-Dope'... Ali and his famous tongue just gave it a better name, but nobody thinks that he pioneered the tactic.

As for expecting a tall fighter with a much longer reach to attack a short, pressure fighter who is most dangerous when throwing short punches, instead of tying the short man up when he's close and keeping his feet moving - no, why fight your opponents ideal fight? ???.

Please tell me you're not a trainer? You'll get somebody hurt.

You talk like being taller and slightly heavier makes you stronger, ignoring the fact that a shorter fighter of similar weight is likely more compact, stronger and can punch with better leverage at closer range.

If you'd rather watch a fight than boxing then go to a rough bar.

As much as I love Cooper, he caught Ali because Ali was messing about and underestimating Cooper, once he tasted that hook and realised that Cooper could punch, he tore his face to ribbons in minutes.

He panicked because he was fighting blinded against one of the most feared heavyweights ever in his FIRST title fight and then his corner calmed him down? Why do you think cornermen are there in the first place? Reacting like that in your corner is hardly uncommon.

You seem to be under the impression that Ali is highly regarded for having a mastery of scientific boxing? ???

He had speed, toughness, reflexes, athleticism, stamina, charisma, determination, adaptability and above all self belief... He had these things in abundance and that is why he is so highly regarded, he had some boxing IQ, but certainatly not the highest on the list of talents that he had, I've never heard anybody say that Ali is the greatest because he possesed masterful, textbook boxing skill... You seem to be imagining this, much like you've imagined him getting credit for creating the rope-a-dope.

185 lb Henry Cooper:
http://imageshack.us/a/img7/2373/enrycooper.jpg


191 lb Sonny Banks:
http://imageshack.us/a/img132/65/ali...knockdown0.jpg


5′ 11½″, 205 lb Smokin' Joe Frazier:
http://imageshack.us/a/img172/509/de...ierali1971.jpg


Ali very susceptible to the left hook.
If they could do it, so could 6'½″, 192 lb Dempsey with his vaunted left hook.

http://imageshack.us/a/img8/3116/dem...oknockdown.jpg

:lickish:

http://imageshack.us/a/img256/1319/m...aliterrell.gif

^ Dude had terrific reflexes and amazing built-in radar for judging punches. That's a world-class fighter he's doing that to there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradlee180

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

---

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

---

Never has a truer line been spoken.

i say the Marciano who smoked Rex Layne outhustles Ali because that Marciano could fight 30 rounds at that pace and never tire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WotIszdTyDA

Ali was God gifted, he had flaws, but you cannot simply break down a talent into a bunch of do's and dont's. Boxing is 90% mental after all. Ali was FAR ahead in mental toughness then most of his opponents.

Who the hell is taking shots at Ali?

Like him or hate him, he fought in what is widely considered to be the greatest era for HW boxing, and he was on the top of the food chain.

Who cares if he got knocked down? He always got back up.

Who cares if he struggled with some opponents? What great fighter hasn't?

Who cares if he didn't throw many body punches? Obviously he didn't need to.

By the way, I love when armchair fighters/trainers sit back and like to tell legendary fighters what they SHOULD have done.

"Oh, he should have thrown more body punches/jabs/combinations/counter punches/uppercuts/ect."

"Oh, he would have won if he just threw more punches/ect."

These guys lived and breathed boxing 24/7, and were trained by guys who lived and breathed boxing 24/7. They fought every day in the gym, honing their craft. I think, in most cases, they have a much better idea what their bodies are capable of and what works best for their styles than Joe Schmo who has never trained and posts on a boxing forum.

I doubt very much Ali never threw a lot of body punches because he didn't know how to. I'm sure he had a great reason for not doing so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vendettos

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradlee180

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

---

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

---

Never has a truer line been spoken.

---

The same as all the fighters of this generation? Is giving past boxers the same level of scrutiny they weren't afforded in their time a crime now?

I almost responded to this. Kept seeing it after it was first posted. Read the first post, chuckled throughout and went about my work day. Like a wood tick burrowed into the skin close to the bone I kept feeling a nibble. After all it is so fundamentally and pugilistically wrong that its almost begging for a response. I mean this guy cant believe what he's scribbling can he? Later last night I had to get rid of the nasty itch so I brought out the tweezers and hot needle went about to respond line by line and paragraph by paragraph. I responded inside his post in the quote format. I then went to bed.

Upon waking this fine -22 morning and over a nice cup of Nabob and a brief grappling match with my dogs I read over my response and was about to hit send. Then, the purpose or intent of the initial post of this thread dawned on me. It was like an epiphany of sorts.

I then got up from my computer, let the dogs out, put my coffee down and proceeded to kick my own ass through a series of heel kicks to each cheek for even considering responding in such a manner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IamInuit

I almost responded to this. Kept seeing it after it was first posted. Read the first post, chuckled throughout and went about my work day. Like a wood tick burrowed into the skin close to the bone I kept feeling a nibble. After all it is so fundamentally and pugilistically wrong that its almost begging for a response. I mean this guy cant believe what he's scribbling can he? Later last night I had to get rid of the nasty itch so I brought out the tweezers and hot needle went about to respond line by line and paragraph by paragraph. I responded inside his post in the quote format. I then went to bed.

Upon waking this fine -22 morning and over a nice cup of Nabob and a brief grappling match with my dogs I read over my response and was about to hit send. Then, the purpose or intent of the initial post of this thread dawned on me. It was like an epiphany of sorts.

I then got up from my computer, let the dogs out, put my coffee down and proceeded to kick my own ass through a series of heel kicks to each cheek for even considering responding in such a manner.

---

That sounded like a novel, bro. ;D
In the end, you probably reached the right conclusion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LukeH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vendettos

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradlee180

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

---

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

---

Never has a truer line been spoken.

---

The same as all the fighters of this generation? Is giving past boxers the same level of scrutiny they weren't afforded in their time a crime now?

---

Fighters today fight about 1/4th as often, why shouldn't we expext more consistency?

[QUOTE=LukeH;1137462]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vendettos

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradlee180

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

---

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

---

Never has a truer line been spoken.

---

The same as all the fighters of this generation? Is giving past boxers the same level of scrutiny they weren't afforded in their time a crime now?[/QUOTE]

No it isn't, all fighters receive scrutiny and Ali is no exception, but i wonder what Sugar Ray's legacy would've been had he lost to both Basora and Levine in his prime? The Ali/Cooper fight has always had people wondering what if? Ali fought some very good fighters throughout his career, he had distractions along the way and then banishment from the sport. He certainly distracted himself on occasion in order to promote a fight and of course promote himself. Ali was a self made marketing phenomenon that turned Cassius Clay into Muhammad Ali and he became the most famous man in the world at one time. If he couldn't fight that would not have happened.

The fact that people are still debating the level of his achievements from both sides of the argument decades later is testament to the depth of his career alone. The guy fought everybody in arguably the best heavyweight era of all time. Not only were there so many great fighters in the division but they all had completely unique styles and characters of their own. The craziest thing for me is I have still never seen a fighter move as beautifully as Ali did in any weight division and this guy was doing it as a fucking heavyweight :o

Ali beat 3 great heavies, fought with a broken jaw, got up from a Frazier left hook, took the bombs from Foreman, fought in the fight of the century, had 3 of his prime years taken away from him what more must a man do to be considered the best?

Ali was awesome.

I love the way he would pull his head back and make an opponent clearly miss rather than put up his guard and block and maybe the judges think he got hit when he actually blocked.

Ali was brilliant.

It has always seemed to me that Ali is considered 'great' because he fought fighters that are considered 'great' because they fought Ali.

Sonny Liston was around before Ali, Big George was feared whilst Ali was in exile and I seem to remember him doing something special a few decades later ???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IamInuit

...the first post, chuckled throughout and went about my work day. Like a wood tick burrowed into the skin close to the bone I kept feeling a nibble. After all it is so fundamentally and pugilistically wrong that its almost begging for a response. I mean this guy cant believe what he's scribbling can he? Later last night I had to get rid of the nasty itch so I ....Then, the purpose or intent of the initial post of this thread dawned on me. It was like an epiphany of sorts...and proceeded to kick my own ass through a series of heel kicks to each cheek for even considering responding in such a manner.

---

Well, that's the name of the game, Inuit, refer to my avatar.

I almost had yoooouuuuu...:D
http://i47.tinypic.com/2111ilj.jpg

Quote:

---

Like him or hate him, he fought in what is widely considered to be the greatest era for HW boxing, and he was on the top of the food chain.

---

Quote:

---

The guy fought everybody in arguably the best heavyweight era of all time.

---

In 1970, the USSRs population was about 240 million people, and they weren't allowed to compete in professional boxing because Communism didn't allow it.

When the doors were finally opened, Russians and other eastern bloc athletes began to dominate Heavyweight Boxing in pretty damn short order! And they continue to do so TO THIS VERY DAY! (Not so much the lighter weights because Russians are on average much physically larger people than Mexicans and Filipinos.)

In any case, if the Russians had been allowed to compete in the 60s and 70s, maybe you never would've even heard of Liston, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Quarry, Cooper, Chuvalo, Cooney, didja ever think about that, HUH, HUH?!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradlee180

Quote:

---

Like him or hate him, he fought in what is widely considered to be the greatest era for HW boxing, and he was on the top of the food chain.

---

Quote:

---

The guy fought everybody in arguably the best heavyweight era of all time.

---

In 1970, the USSRs population was about 240 million people, and they weren't allowed to compete in professional boxing because Communism didn't allow it.

When the doors were finally opened, Russians and other eastern bloc athletes began to dominate Heavyweight Boxing in pretty damn short order! And they continue to do so TO THIS VERY DAY! (Not so much the lighter weights because Russians are on average much physically larger people than Mexicans and Filipinos.)

In any case, if the Russians had been allowed to compete in the 60s and 70s, maybe you never would've even heard of Liston, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Quarry, Cooper, Chuvalo, Cooney, didja ever think about that, HUH, HUH?!!!

---

They were certainly allowed to compete at the Olympics and Ali, Frazier and Foreman all won Gold medals in their respective divisions competing against....RUSSIANS, did you ever think about that? I don't see any evidence of any Russian dominance throughout the amateur ranks in the 60's and 70's that would've challenged successfully in the Heavyweight division. The Soviets had some success in the Middleweight division winning Gold in 56, 64 and 72, they also won Gold at LH in 68 and that is all they got!

yeah that homo jab jab grab nonsense would've been boring us at an earlier era

you're clearly a K2 fan trying to downplay and undermine what great heavyweights of the past did

You do make one interesting point, if there was no colour bar after Johnson, they would have been no legacy left by Dempsey or Tunney.

Right off the bat we know boxing as the manly art of self defense and let's forget about other sports that say they are so tough. Two arms, two legs and the ability to strike, parry and get the hell out of the way. Seriously, how can anyone say that someone holding the title champion can't fight. Ali thought like all athletes that he could go on forever but for all athletes there are flaws they have to compensate for but Ali fought. His natural speed in his youth compensated for any mistakes but all in all he did a good job to stay on top when he wasn't that quick any more he became a fighter because he couldn't bounce around like he did at 22 but he made all the right adjustments and he proved he was tough but I'm sure that speed was something he wish stayed with him a a lot longer.

Quote:

---

You do make one interesting point, if there was no colour bar after Johnson, they would have been no legacy left by Dempsey or Tunney.

---

Excellent point, first black Heavyweight Champion Jack Johnson did in fact draw the color line and wouldn't fight other black fighters after winning the title...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradlee180

Quote:

---

You do make one interesting point, if there was no colour bar after Johnson, they would have been no legacy left by Dempsey or Tunney.

---

Excellent point, first black Heavyweight Champion Jack Johnson did in fact draw the color line and wouldn't fight other black fighters after winning the title...

---

You deliberately mis-interpret my post you mischievous poster you. Is your name Loki by any chance?

Rocky marciano ladies and gentleman, let's have a round of applause for rocky Marciano.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Rocky marciano ladies and gentleman, let's have a round of applause for rocky Marciano.

---

What has he done lately?

The Jab and footwork rank among the most important fundamentals in boxing. The way Ali utilized his footwork to deliver his jab and a footwork as both simultaneous offense and defense was something we rarely see today or back in the days when TVs were only in black and white.

Sure Ali had to adjust his game as he got older and slower, but anybody who thinks Ali before the prime he missed due to suspension was fundamentally unsound, does not understand the true fundamentals Cassisu Clay implemented in his general technique and approach to pugilism