Ali couldn't fight, are you effin' kiddin' me ?!!

[Vendettos]

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

Never has a truer line been spoken.

[brocktonblockbust]

i say the Marciano who smoked Rex Layne outhustles Ali because that Marciano could fight 30 rounds at that pace and never tire.

[SugarBoxing]

Ali was God gifted, he had flaws, but you cannot simply break down a talent into a bunch of do's and dont's. Boxing is 90% mental after all. Ali was FAR ahead in mental toughness then most of his opponents.

[Beanflicker]

Who the hell is taking shots at Ali?

Like him or hate him, he fought in what is widely considered to be the greatest era for HW boxing, and he was on the top of the food chain.

Who cares if he got knocked down? He always got back up.

Who cares if he struggled with some opponents? What great fighter hasn't?

Who cares if he didn't throw many body punches? Obviously he didn't need to.

By the way, I love when armchair fighters/trainers sit back and like to tell legendary fighters what they SHOULD have done.

"Oh, he should have thrown more body punches/jabs/combinations/counter punches/uppercuts/ect."

"Oh, he would have won if he just threw more punches/ect."

These guys lived and breathed boxing 24/7, and were trained by guys who lived and breathed boxing 24/7. They fought every day in the gym, honing their craft. I think, in most cases, they have a much better idea what their bodies are capable of and what works best for their styles than Joe Schmo who has never trained and posts on a boxing forum.

I doubt very much Ali never threw a lot of body punches because he didn't know how to. I'm sure he had a great reason for not doing so.

[IamInuit]

I almost responded to this. Kept seeing it after it was first posted. Read the first post, chuckled throughout and went about my work day. Like a wood tick burrowed into the skin close to the bone I kept feeling a nibble. After all it is so fundamentally and pugilistically wrong that its almost begging for a response. I mean this guy cant believe what he's scribbling can he? Later last night I had to get rid of the nasty itch so I brought out the tweezers and hot needle went about to respond line by line and paragraph by paragraph. I responded inside his post in the quote format. I then went to bed.

Upon waking this fine -22 morning and over a nice cup of Nabob and a brief grappling match with my dogs I read over my response and was about to hit send. Then, the purpose or intent of the initial post of this thread dawned on me. It was like an epiphany of sorts.

I then got up from my computer, let the dogs out, put my coffee down and proceeded to kick my own ass through a series of heel kicks to each cheek for even considering responding in such a manner.

[TitoFan]

I almost responded to this. Kept seeing it after it was first posted. Read the first post, chuckled throughout and went about my work day. Like a wood tick burrowed into the skin close to the bone I kept feeling a nibble. After all it is so fundamentally and pugilistically wrong that its almost begging for a response. I mean this guy cant believe what he's scribbling can he? Later last night I had to get rid of the nasty itch so I brought out the tweezers and hot needle went about to respond line by line and paragraph by paragraph. I responded inside his post in the quote format. I then went to bed.

Upon waking this fine -22 morning and over a nice cup of Nabob and a brief grappling match with my dogs I read over my response and was about to hit send. Then, the purpose or intent of the initial post of this thread dawned on me. It was like an epiphany of sorts.

I then got up from my computer, let the dogs out, put my coffee down and proceeded to kick my own ass through a series of heel kicks to each cheek for even considering responding in such a manner.

That sounded like a novel, bro.
In the end, you probably reached the right conclusion.

[bradlee180]

...the first post, chuckled throughout and went about my work day. Like a wood tick burrowed into the skin close to the bone I kept feeling a nibble. After all it is so fundamentally and pugilistically wrong that its almost begging for a response. I mean this guy cant believe what he's scribbling can he? Later last night I had to get rid of the nasty itch so I ....Then, the purpose or intent of the initial post of this thread dawned on me. It was like an epiphany of sorts...and proceeded to kick my own ass through a series of heel kicks to each cheek for even considering responding in such a manner.

Well, that's the name of the game, Inuit, refer to my avatar.

I almost had yoooouuuuu...

[bradlee180]

Like him or hate him, he fought in what is widely considered to be the greatest era for HW boxing, and he was on the top of the food chain.

The guy fought everybody in arguably the best heavyweight era of all time.

In 1970, the USSRs population was about 240 million people, and they weren't allowed to compete in professional boxing because Communism didn't allow it.

When the doors were finally opened, Russians and other eastern bloc athletes began to dominate Heavyweight Boxing in pretty damn short order! And they continue to do so TO THIS VERY DAY! (Not so much the lighter weights because Russians are on average much physically larger people than Mexicans and Filipinos.)

In any case, if the Russians had been allowed to compete in the 60s and 70s, maybe you never would've even heard of Liston, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Quarry, Cooper, Chuvalo, Cooney, didja ever think about that, HUH, HUH?!!!

[THE THIRD MAN]

Like him or hate him, he fought in what is widely considered to be the greatest era for HW boxing, and he was on the top of the food chain.

The guy fought everybody in arguably the best heavyweight era of all time.

In 1970, the USSRs population was about 240 million people, and they weren't allowed to compete in professional boxing because Communism didn't allow it.

When the doors were finally opened, Russians and other eastern bloc athletes began to dominate Heavyweight Boxing in pretty damn short order! And they continue to do so TO THIS VERY DAY! (Not so much the lighter weights because Russians are on average much physically larger people than Mexicans and Filipinos.)

In any case, if the Russians had been allowed to compete in the 60s and 70s, maybe you never would've even heard of Liston, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Quarry, Cooper, Chuvalo, Cooney, didja ever think about that, HUH, HUH?!!!

They were certainly allowed to compete at the Olympics and Ali, Frazier and Foreman all won Gold medals in their respective divisions competing against....RUSSIANS, did you ever think about that? I don't see any evidence of any Russian dominance throughout the amateur ranks in the 60's and 70's that would've challenged successfully in the Heavyweight division. The Soviets had some success in the Middleweight division winning Gold in 56, 64 and 72, they also won Gold at LH in 68 and that is all they got!

[TysonBomb]

yeah that homo jab jab grab nonsense would've been boring us at an earlier era

you're clearly a K2 fan trying to downplay and undermine what great heavyweights of the past did

[Master]

You do make one interesting point, if there was no colour bar after Johnson, they would have been no legacy left by Dempsey or Tunney.

[LukeH]

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

Never has a truer line been spoken.

The same as all the fighters of this generation? Is giving past boxers the same level of scrutiny they weren't afforded in their time a crime now?

[AdamGB]

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

Never has a truer line been spoken.

The same as all the fighters of this generation? Is giving past boxers the same level of scrutiny they weren't afforded in their time a crime now?

Fighters today fight about 1/4th as often, why shouldn't we expext more consistency?

[THE THIRD MAN]

[QUOTE=LukeH;1137462]

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

Never has a truer line been spoken.

The same as all the fighters of this generation? Is giving past boxers the same level of scrutiny they weren't afforded in their time a crime now?[/QUOTE]

No it isn't, all fighters receive scrutiny and Ali is no exception, but i wonder what Sugar Ray's legacy would've been had he lost to both Basora and Levine in his prime? The Ali/Cooper fight has always had people wondering what if? Ali fought some very good fighters throughout his career, he had distractions along the way and then banishment from the sport. He certainly distracted himself on occasion in order to promote a fight and of course promote himself. Ali was a self made marketing phenomenon that turned Cassius Clay into Muhammad Ali and he became the most famous man in the world at one time. If he couldn't fight that would not have happened.

[jahmez]

The fact that people are still debating the level of his achievements from both sides of the argument decades later is testament to the depth of his career alone. The guy fought everybody in arguably the best heavyweight era of all time. Not only were there so many great fighters in the division but they all had completely unique styles and characters of their own. The craziest thing for me is I have still never seen a fighter move as beautifully as Ali did in any weight division and this guy was doing it as a fucking heavyweight