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Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Gentlemen, and especially fans of Floyd Mayweather Jr.,
I have a couple of questions for you. In prepartion for the big Mayweather fight this weekend, I read a few articles from respected websites on the man from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Check Doug Fisher's mailbag this week on the Ring Magazine's Website for an example. The articles suggest that Floyd Mayweather Jr. has left a number of meaningful fights on the table in his career. Some of the missed fights were from when he was promoted by Bob Arum, and others from his post-Arum era. There are probably very good reasons why he didn't engage in bouts with the guys below during his rise to the top of the p4p list. Of course, they still didn't happen. Will people educate me on why each of these fights didn't get made?
Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Paul Williams (2008)
Winky Wright (2009)
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Sergio Martinez (2012)
Now many people claim that Floyd is a top-25 all-time great fighter. Can someone provide me with a historical comparison of other top-25 all-time great boxers with regard to the boxers they arguably missed? For example, Roberto Duran, Ike Williams, Joe Louis, Benny Leonard? Did they miss as many boxers in their career? Is it not uncommon amongst the best to have that many misses? Or is it uncommon? I understand there may be reasons for it e.g. the eras are different in terms of how many professional fights a fighter has over his career, and that economics are different etc.
Thank you for your help.
Disclaimer: I have no intention of suggesting that Floyd hasn't had an amazing carreer, or that he hasn't had great wins, such as Castillo II, Oscar De La Hoya, and Diego Corrales etc.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Good thread.
Rant, I would put asterisks on Winky and Sergio. Regardless of the fact that jumping many weight classes is all the rage now.... if you look strictly at natural weights and size.... these fighters IMO have never been an easy fit with Floyd from a size standpoint. It's always been quite a reach to match either of these two fighters with Floyd. You have to consider where each of these fighters came from in terms of weight.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Gentlemen, and especially fans of Floyd Mayweather Jr.,
I have a couple of questions for you. In prepartion for the big Mayweather fight this weekend, I read a few articles from respected websites on the man from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Check Doug Fisher's mailbag this week on the Ring Magazine's Website for an example. The articles suggest that Floyd Mayweather Jr. has left a number of meaningful fights on the table in his career. Some of the missed fights were from when he was promoted by Bob Arum, and others from his post-Arum era. There are probably very good reasons why he didn't engage in bouts with the guys below during his rise to the top of the p4p list. Of course, they still didn't happen. Will people educate me on why each of these fights didn't get made?
Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Paul Williams (2008)
Winky Wright (2009)
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Sergio Martinez (2012)
At that time Freitas was only known to hardcore fans. By the time he started fighting regularly in the US Mayweather had moved up to Lightweight. Casamayor-Mayweather was a fight that should of happened. Have no idea why it wasn't. Mayweather-Johnson was being discussed. But Johnson lost to Jose Luis Castillo. Mayweather fought Castillo instead. Mayweather-Harris never happened cuz Harris was overrated and there was no point in fighting him. Harris confirmed that by losing to Carlos Maussa. Mayweather-Tszyu I believe was a HBO/Show Time issue. Mayweather was an HBO regular. Tszyu a Show Time regular. Mayweather-Cotto didn't happen in 2008 cuz Cotto didn't want the fight. Williams and Wright I don't think were ever visible fights. The rest are common knowledge
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Mayweather-Cotto didn't happen in 2008 cuz Cotto didn't want the fight.
Then there's this point of view.
Great Fight! Mayweather To Battle Cotto, The Man He Avoided in 2008
Just saying.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
I don't really care others opinion. But you obviously do
The undeniable truth of facts: Mayweather-Cotto
Top Rank Protected Cotto From Me
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Oh really?
I post a link and that's "me caring about others' opinion"..... whereas you post a link and you don't care about others' opinion?
Newsflash, pea-brain: Most articles ARE someone else's opinion.
Oh... wait... I know what threw you off.
One of your articles has the words "truth" and "facts" in the title. Therefore, it must be the (cough) truth.
The other one was authored by Floyd himself. Well then, of course it's true.
Dope.
Once again, I've exposed your ignorance.
Do you read your own shit before you post it?
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
There are people who actually think Floyd ISN'T a top 25 of all time fighter? Jesus Christ.
If you don't think Floyd is top 25 of all time, please identify yourself now. I'm not going to argue with you, I just want to know for future reference so I don't waste my time reading your posts.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.
People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.
When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.
Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.
People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.
When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.
Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.
What was Floyd's best win? Or top three wins? Floyd might be a great "in ring talent," but has he fought the level of guys that top twenty-five boxers have faced? Did he ever face anyone on the level of say, Roberto Duran?
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Good thread.
Rant, I would put asterisks on Winky and Sergio. Regardless of the fact that jumping many weight classes is all the rage now.... if you look strictly at natural weights and size.... these fighters IMO have never been an easy fit with Floyd from a size standpoint. It's always been quite a reach to match either of these two fighters with Floyd. You have to consider where each of these fighters came from in terms of weight.
Thank you, sir. My point really isn't that there aren't reasons behind Floyd not facing the above guys, but only that he didn't face them. It hurts his legacy, regardless of how we speculate what the outcomes would be. Was Floyd's career-defining win Diego Corrales? Is this his best win? Or was it the Castillo rematch? If Diego Corrales was his best win, how does that compare to say, Roberto Duran's best win? Sugar Ray Robinson's best win? Ali's best win? Ike Williams' best win? Greb's best win?
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How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?
Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.
The same thing can be said for floyd.
Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.
People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.
When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.
Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.
Compare their legacies. There are many people who argue with how highly ranked Harry Greb or Joe Gans are on most all-time lists because there aren't much film of them. In this discussion, how do we know how good Floyd's "boxing skills, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, etc." are if he hasn't faced guys that we consider to be great? Like with Greb and Gans, we can only speculate. How can we say Floyd was a better lightweight than Ike Williams when his best performance at lightweight was his rematch with Castillo? It's impossible.
The difference with Floyd is that we could have found out. We can blame it on Bob Arum's strategy with developing boxers for his pre-2007 fights. We can blame it on risk/reward for his post-2007 fights. At the end of the day though, Floyd's competition is what it is.
There is no doubt Floyd is an all-time great, nor that he should be on everyone's list of 100 best fighters. However, when you start comparing the truly great fighters, guys in the top five all-time of each division, I'm pretty sure, and this is where I would like input from the Saddo community, but I'm pretty sure that Floyd's best wins don't match their best wins.
For example, Wladimir Klitschko is effective as a heavyweight. He's big; he's athletic; he has a high boxing IQ; he has good ring generalship. However, who has Wladimir really beat? Does he have any wins that match the wins of great heavyweights? That's why when we rank Wladimir Klitschko, no matter how you think he would have fared against the top 5-10 heavyweights, they rank above him because they have better wins. Is Wladimir's best win David Haye?
Let me ask this: if Floyd beat Sergio Martinez in his next fight, how would you rank that win compared to Floyd's previous wins? In the alternative, if Floyd beat Kosta Tszyu in 2004 or whenever they didn't fight, how would that win rank on Floyd's current ledger? If Floyd had fought and beat Margarito and Cotto in 2007, instead of retiring, how would those wins compare?
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.
People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.
When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.
Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.
Compare their legacies. There are many people who argue with how highly ranked Harry Greb or Joe Gans are on most all-time lists because there aren't much film of them. In this discussion, how do we know how good Floyd's "boxing skills, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, etc." are if he hasn't faced guys that we consider to be great? Like with Greb and Gans, we can only speculate. How can we say Floyd was a better lightweight than Ike Williams when his best performance at lightweight was his rematch with Castillo? It's impossible.
The difference with Floyd is that we could have found out. We can blame it on Bob Arum's strategy with developing boxers for his pre-2007 fights. We can blame it on risk/reward for his post-2007 fights. At the end of the day though, Floyd's competition is what it is.
There is no doubt Floyd is an all-time great, nor that he should be on everyone's list of 100 best fighters. However, when you start comparing the truly great fighters, guys in the top five all-time of each division, I'm pretty sure, and this is where I would like input from the Saddo community, but I'm pretty sure that Floyd's best wins don't match their best wins.
For example, Wladimir Klitschko is effective as a heavyweight. He's big; he's athletic; he has a high boxing IQ; he has good ring generalship. However, who has Wladimir really beat? Does he have any wins that match the wins of great heavyweights? That's why when we rank Wladimir Klitschko, no matter how you think he would have fared against the top 5-10 heavyweights, they rank above him because they have better wins. Is Wladimir's best win David Haye?
Let me ask this: if Floyd beat Sergio Martinez in his next fight, how would you rank that win compared to Floyd's previous wins? In the alternative, if Floyd beat Kosta Tszyu in 2004 or whenever they didn't fight, how would that win rank on Floyd's current ledger? If Floyd had fought and beat Margarito and Cotto in 2007, instead of retiring, how would those wins compare?
If Floyd was to beat Martinez next or if he had beaten Cotto or Margarito in 07 I would still rank his win over Corrales as his best ever
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?
Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.
The same thing can be said for floyd.
Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.
Absolutely. There is no way to say. That same argument though can be made about every fighter we like. For example, I might admire Ike Williams and believe he was the best lightweight to ever lace up gloves. Who's to say he wouldn't have beat Roberto Duran at lightweight?
However, when it comes to talking about the best of all-time, which is a very small group, how can we even compare Floyd Mayweather with Roberto Duran when Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard. Does Floyd Mayweather Jr. have a win on his CV that equates to Duran's win over Sugar Ray Leonard? Does Floyd have a win that is comparable to Duran's over Jose Pipino Cuevas, or over Iran Barkley at middleweight (remember Duran started his career at lightweight, comparable to Floyd)? If we are talking about legacy, the most important questions are: who did he face and when? Otherwise, it's mere speculation, and entirely subjective. Not to say, the debate isn't fun, of course. ;)
By the way, there are those that argue that Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't great, or that a win over Cuevas wasn't great, besides that I disagree, even if we assume that they aren't great, are there any wins on Floyd's resume that are better?
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?
Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.
The same thing can be said for floyd.
Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.
Absolutely. There is no way to say. That same argument though can be made about every fighter we like. For example, I might admire Ike Williams and believe he was the best lightweight to ever lace up gloves. Who's to say he wouldn't have beat Roberto Duran at lightweight?
However, when it comes to talking about the best of all-time, which is a very small group, how can we even compare Floyd Mayweather with Roberto Duran when Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard.
Does Floyd Mayweather Jr. have a win on his CV that equates to Duran's win over Sugar Ray Leonard? Does Floyd have a win that is comparable to Duran's over Jose Pipino Cuevas, or over Iran Barkley at
middleweight (remember Duran started his career at lightweight, comparable to Floyd)? If we are talking about legacy, the most important questions are: who did he face and when? Otherwise, it's mere speculation, and entirely subjective. Not to say, the debate isn't fun, of course. ;)
By the way, there are those that argue that Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't great, or that a win over Cuevas wasn't great, besides that I disagree, even if we assume that they aren't great, are there any wins on Floyd's resume that are better?
Was there an opponent available that was on Leonard's level for Mayweather to beat?
And beating Jose Luis Castillo is actually better than beating Pipino Cuevas
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.
People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.
When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.
Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.
You saw Pep and Saddler? How fucking old are you?
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
[QUOTE=Violent Demise;1152472]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
If Floyd was to beat Martinez next or if he had beaten Cotto or Margarito in 07 I would still rank his win over Corrales as his best ever
Good call @Violent Demise . While I'm not sure that I agree with that statement, I agree that his win over Diego Corrales in 2001 was his career-best win. Corrales was ranked #5 p4p at the time they fought, and many people thought Floyd would lose.
I have a number of questions for you.
Was that win in 2001 at junior lightweight Floyd's best win?
How highly do you rank Corrales compared with other junior lightweights/super featherweights throughout history?
How highly do you rank a victory over Diego Corrales in terms of quality of win? Compare it to wins by other great fighters.
How much differently do you treat Castillo's win over Corrales in their rematch to their epic war? On that same note, how highly do you rank Casamayor's win over Corrales in their third (?) fight?
Even if you think that win would have been better than wins over Martinez at junior middlweight, or Cotto/Margarito in 2007, would those wins not have added a lot to his legacy?
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
I've had this argument too many times to indulge. It always goes the same way: everyone Floyd ever fought was either a total bum, overrated, washed up, too small, fighting at the wrong weight, or screwed over by the ref. And of course everyone who Floyd never fought would have been "the guy" who really put the screws to him. If people want to believe that, cool.
Who has Floyd beat? Well, I'll tell you what: you give me your top 10 of all time and tell me who they've beat, and we can compare it to Floyd's resume. Then you can explain to me how guys like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olsen, ect are so greater than opponents like prime Jose Luis Castillo and Ricky Hatton.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
You saw Pep and Saddler? How fucking old are you?
Old enough to turn on a DVD player or type in "youtube.com" apparently.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?
Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.
The same thing can be said for floyd.
Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.
Absolutely. There is no way to say. That same argument though can be made about every fighter we like. For example, I might admire Ike Williams and believe he was the best lightweight to ever lace up gloves. Who's to say he wouldn't have beat Roberto Duran at lightweight?
However, when it comes to talking about the best of all-time, which is a very small group, how can we even compare Floyd Mayweather with Roberto Duran when Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard.
Does Floyd Mayweather Jr. have a win on his CV that equates to Duran's win over Sugar Ray Leonard? Does Floyd have a win that is comparable to Duran's over Jose Pipino Cuevas, or over Iran Barkley at
middleweight (remember Duran started his career at lightweight, comparable to Floyd)? If we are talking about legacy, the most important questions are: who did he face and when? Otherwise, it's mere speculation, and entirely subjective. Not to say, the debate isn't fun, of course. ;)
By the way, there are those that argue that Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't great, or that a win over Cuevas wasn't great, besides that I disagree, even if we assume that they aren't great, are there any wins on Floyd's resume that are better?
Was there an opponent available that was on Leonard's level for Mayweather to beat?
And beating Jose Luis Castillo is actually better than beating Pipino Cuevas
I'm not disagreeing with you there. It's actually my whole point. It's tough to compare Mayweather to someone like Duran when he never faced anyone on the level of the guys Duran faced. It's not his fault. It's not Wladimir Klitschko's fault either that there aren't any Ken Norton's, Sonny Liston's, George Foreman's, or Joe Frazier's.
Unfortunately, for Floyd and Wlad, the welterweight division and the heavyweight division haven't been exceptionally deep during their reigns, so they didn't get a chance to test their mettle against great fighters. The result though is that we can't rank them above the greats who we know faced other greats.
One more point is about the risks Duran took, which Floyd hasn't taken, even though Duran came out in defeat. Duran is a guy who started at lightweight and was 5'7. He's not all that different physically than Floyd, at the very least he's comparable in size. Yet, Duran fought Marvelous freaking Hagler at middleweight. He lost, but fighting Marvelous Hagler, for a guy who started at lightweight, is an unholy risk to take. It's riskier than Floyd fighting Sergio Martinez right now at middlweight. and Floyd won't even face him at junior middleweight.
On a side note, there might even be an argument that Duran's performance against Hagler is greater than any Floyd performance, simply when you take into account, the weight jump, the risk, and all that. Don't forget Duran won many rounds against Hagler.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Pipino Cuevas SUCKED. Jose Luis Castillo was a killer back in his prime, back when Floyd beat him.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
On a side note, there might even be an argument that Duran's performance against Hagler is greater than any Floyd performance, simply when you take into account, the weight jump, the risk, and all that. Don't forget Duran won many rounds against Hagler.
Haha, I'd love to hear that argument.
Who did Hagler beat, btw?
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
I've had this argument too many times to indulge. It always goes the same way: everyone Floyd ever fought was either a total bum, overrated, washed up, too small, fighting at the wrong weight, or screwed over by the ref. And of course everyone who Floyd never fought would have been "the guy" who really put the screws to him. If people want to believe that, cool.
Who has Floyd beat? Well, I'll tell you what: you give me your top 10 of all time and tell me who they've beat, and we can compare it to Floyd's resume. Then you can explain to me how guys like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olsen, ect are so greater than opponents like prime Jose Luis Castillo and Ricky Hatton.
I don't want to have that argument either because I'm not guy who dislikes Floyd. I didn't intend the threat to devolve into that type of discussion. I wanted a discussion of legacy.
How about we start with Duran. How would you care to compare Duran's wins to Floyd's wins?
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Good call @
Violent Demise . While I'm not sure that I agree with that statement, I agree that his win over Diego Corrales in 2001 was his career-best win. Corrales was ranked #5 p4p at the time they fought, and many people thought Floyd would lose.
I have a number of questions for you.
Was that win in 2001 at junior lightweight Floyd's best win?
How highly do you rank Corrales compared with other junior lightweights/super featherweights throughout history?
How highly do you rank a victory over Diego Corrales in terms of quality of win? Compare it to wins by other great fighters.
How much differently do you treat Castillo's win over Corrales in their rematch to their epic war? On that same note, how highly do you rank Casamayor's win over Corrales in their third (?) fight?
Even if you think that win would have been better than wins over Martinez at junior middlweight, or Cotto/Margarito in 2007, would those wins not have added
a lot to his legacy?
It might not of been Mayweather's best win opponent wise. But it was clearly his best performance. The way he shut out and pretty much embarrassed Corrales was very impressive.
Not sure where I would rank Corrales in the all time list. I gotta think about that one
I don't treat Castillo win over Corrales any differently. He was overweight. But Corrales agreed to let the fight go on. And come fight night there wasn't much difference in weight.
Corrales was already on the decline going into the Casamayor fight. But so was Casamayor. I've always been partial to Casamayor. So obviously I rank it highly for him
Without a doubt. I won't argue with anybody that says Mayweather's legacy needs improving
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
On a side note, there might even be an argument that Duran's performance against Hagler is greater than any Floyd performance, simply when you take into account, the weight jump, the risk, and all that. Don't forget Duran won many rounds against Hagler.
Haha, I'd love to hear that argument.
Who did Hagler beat, btw?
It's probably a losing argument. It wasn't the main point I was trying to make, which was to show the incredible risk Duran took in jumping to middleweight to fight Hagler, who a lot of guys ducked.
Would you rank a challenge to Martinez higher than a challenge to Hagler?
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Floyd never quits.
Duran did.
Compare that.
You will never see ricky hatton saying "no mas"!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
There are people who actually think Floyd ISN'T a top 25 of all time fighter? Jesus Christ.
If you don't think Floyd is top 25 of all time, please identify yourself now. I'm not going to argue with you, I just want to know for future reference so I don't waste my time reading your posts.
If anyone disagrees with your opinion of Floyd, lets take those SOBs out back and beat the shit out of them. How dare they!?!?
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Floyd never quits.
Duran did.
Compare that.
You will never see ricky hatton saying "no mas"!
You must of missed his last fight. He could of got up. But chose to stay down. He quit
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Don't care who he ducked or missed or any of that BS! I know Pacman was on the table atleast twice in legitament bouts and it wasn't signed by Floyd!! Oh well!
Floyd has real "in ring intelligence" he has terriffic hand speed and his intellect adds to his counterabilities! He is extremely difficult to square up on and has all the punches in his arsonal.
He also is NOT an ATG Welter to me, there are many men at 147 mark that could handle him mostly because he doesn't have welter size. He is very small compared to the greats and then their are a few his size that could fight right with him and give and take. The main reason for not allowing him in my top tier is his lack of power. He has the techniques but he simply doesn't generate the power to give away the size he gives up.
I'd have to rate him in at 135 (don't believe in the junior weight class BS) and he'd be in tuff there but I think could compete on a solid level. Again his lack of power would be effident against the top tier men but his hand and foot speed could make up for his defficiency in the lighter classes.
Great thinker, fast hands, one of the best counter movers and punchers but little power and not a front runner can be boring and stays calculating when he doesn't have to.
Great talent good fighter! Ray .
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Been you sound worse then the Floyde haters only the other way around dude. I rank Floyde in the top 15 not sure he breaks my top 10 because i have Leonard at 10 and i cant not rate Mayweather higher then Leonard. His best win is Castillo i would say and he pretty much lost the first fight at his best weight he did avenge it though. But saying that Leonard resume was far greater and he was amazing in the ring he i though also had more to his games in terms of offence as well but thats all up to judgement.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
beenKOed
If anyone disagrees with your opinion of Floyd, lets take those SOBs out back and beat the shit out of them. How dare they!?!?
I'm not saying that. I think Floyd is the greatest in-ring talent of all time, but I can totally understand people disagreeing with that. There are great arguments to make for a handful of guys being #1.
But if you don't think Floyd is top 25 of all time, you know NOTHING about boxing and have very little to contribute to any discussion.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Been you sound worse then the Floyde haters only the other way around dude. I rank Floyde in the top 15 not sure he breaks my top 10 because i have Leonard at 10 and i cant not rate Mayweather higher then Leonard. His best win is Castillo i would say and he pretty much lost the first fight at his best weight he did avenge it though. But saying that Leonard resume was far greater and he was amazing in the ring he i though also had more to his games in terms of offence as well but thats all up to judgement.
I'm always open for debate. Give me your top 10 and we'll compare those you rank to Floyd.
For all you guys who don't rank Floyd top 10, top 25, or top 50, man up and post your list.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Also, if you think Castillo is his best win, you're nuts.
Post your list, and I personally gaurentee you I'll catch you slipping up somewhere.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Floyd never quits.
Duran did.
Compare that.
You will never see ricky hatton saying "no mas"!
You must of missed his last fight. He could of got up. But chose to stay down. He quit
Hattons got hit by a bodyshot that knocked him out after coming back from a massive lay off.
Hands of stone told the ref he couldnt take anymore and quit because he couldnt beat a guy he beat before and was getting completely outboxed.
Duran was an all time great but lets not pretend to forget things that we criticize a modern day victor ortiz for.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Well bean if you have Floyde as number one i like see how your list is and i will post my list again been a while and you can say what you like about i guess floyde is ranked just out of my top ten behind Leonard.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong jr, Roberto Duran, Harry Greb, Jou Louis, Benny Leonard, Gene Tunney, and Sugar Ray Leonard I guess i would say is my top ten.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Not sure who the writer is but the logic is flawed. Where Freitas and Casamayor are concerned it was because of timing more then anything else. Acelino was not known and Floyd was on his way to the Arum break away. In addition Orgs were well on their way of using the calendar in order to ensure certain fights could not happen and especially unifications. Much like they do now. I don’t think the Johnson fight was even thought about and Castillo had already beaten him. And imagine the style matchup. It would have been about as enjoyable as Byrd/Jones in their prime. I’d have to hit myself in the head with a ballpeen hammer just to watch it. The fight I wanted in that time frame that had a short window was Shane/Floyd. That would have been something in the 130/35 area.
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Who names their son Vivian? At any rate he was another hype job with a punch with the boxing skills of a log and had not done squat to meet Floyd. Chin like fly paper.
Zu was a matter of politics with conflicting broadcasters and no fault of either man. I wonder if the writer made the same notation on his view of Zu’s legacy.
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
In case anyone was not paying attention this is where the depth of Arum and Floyds hatred of each other gathered its own taste. How many Arum fighters has Floyd clashed with since he told him to go play in the traffic?
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Cotto and his team have went public saying more or less that they were not ready for him and I suppose I could g get the quotes if need be. Floyd had to wait on Cotto to be a free agent.
Paul Williams (2008)
In 2008 Williams split with Quintana who was a borderline gate keeper and then moved to 160 pounds. Sure he beat Margarito a year previous but that’s it.
Winky Wright (2009)
You have got to be kidding me? Not only was Winky washed up in 2009 but he would have never even been a mention. He was out of Floyds weight class for almost a decade.
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Not going to beat the dead horse. They are both categorically insane for not doing it.
Sergio Martinez (2012)
How does a natural welter duck a natural middle?
Look forward to the response my friend. I think Floyds problem from a historians standpoint will be the time off. Smart sob from an economic standpoint cause he could have eliminated the crew he is about to cash in on.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Not sure who the writer is but the logic is flawed. Where Freitas and Casamayor are concerned it was because of timing more then anything else. Acelino was not known and Floyd was on his way to the Arum break away. In addition Orgs were well on their way of using the calendar in order to ensure certain fights could not happen and especially unifications. Much like they do now. I don’t think the Johnson fight was even thought about and Castillo had already beaten him. And imagine the style matchup. It would have been about as enjoyable as Byrd/Jones in their prime. I’d have to hit myself in the head with a ballpeen hammer just to watch it. The fight I wanted in that time frame that had a short window was Shane/Floyd. That would have been something in the 130/35 area.
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Who names their son Vivian? At any rate he was another hype job with a punch with the boxing skills of a log and had not done squat to meet Floyd. Chin like fly paper.
Zu was a matter of politics with conflicting broadcasters and no fault of either man. I wonder if the writer made the same notation on his view of Zu’s legacy.
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
In case anyone was not paying attention this is where the depth of Arum and Floyds hatred of each other gathered its own taste. How many Arum fighters has Floyd clashed with since he told him to go play in the traffic?
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Cotto and his team have went public saying more or less that they were not ready for him and I suppose I could g get the quotes if need be. Floyd had to wait on Cotto to be a free agent.
Paul Williams (2008)
In 2008 Williams split with Quintana who was a borderline gate keeper and then moved to 160 pounds. Sure he beat Margarito a year previous but that’s it.
Winky Wright (2009)
You have got to be kidding me? Not only was Winky washed up in 2009 but he would have never even been a mention. He was out of Floyds weight class for almost a decade.
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Not going to beat the dead horse. They are both categorically insane for not doing it.
Sergio Martinez (2012)
How does a natural welter duck a natural middle?
Look forward to the response my friend. I think Floyds problem from a historians standpoint will be the time off. Smart sob from an economic standpoint cause he could have eliminated the crew he is about to cash in on.
You wrote that? That's actually pretty much on point. I agree with it
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Not sure who the writer is but the logic is flawed. Where Freitas and Casamayor are concerned it was because of timing more then anything else. Acelino was not known and Floyd was on his way to the Arum break away. In addition Orgs were well on their way of using the calendar in order to ensure certain fights could not happen and especially unifications. Much like they do now. I don’t think the Johnson fight was even thought about and Castillo had already beaten him. And imagine the style matchup. It would have been about as enjoyable as Byrd/Jones in their prime. I’d have to hit myself in the head with a ballpeen hammer just to watch it. The fight I wanted in that time frame that had a short window was Shane/Floyd. That would have been something in the 130/35 area.
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Who names their son Vivian? At any rate he was another hype job with a punch with the boxing skills of a log and had not done squat to meet Floyd. Chin like fly paper.
Zu was a matter of politics with conflicting broadcasters and no fault of either man. I wonder if the writer made the same notation on his view of Zu’s legacy.
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
In case anyone was not paying attention this is where the depth of Arum and Floyds hatred of each other gathered its own taste. How many Arum fighters has Floyd clashed with since he told him to go play in the traffic?
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Cotto and his team have went public saying more or less that they were not ready for him and I suppose I could g get the quotes if need be. Floyd had to wait on Cotto to be a free agent.
Paul Williams (2008)
In 2008 Williams split with Quintana who was a borderline gate keeper and then moved to 160 pounds. Sure he beat Margarito a year previous but that’s it.
Winky Wright (2009)
You have got to be kidding me? Not only was Winky washed up in 2009 but he would have never even been a mention. He was out of Floyds weight class for almost a decade.
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Not going to beat the dead horse. They are both categorically insane for not doing it.
Sergio Martinez (2012)
How does a natural welter duck a natural middle?
Look forward to the response my friend. I think Floyds problem from a historians standpoint will be the time off. Smart sob from an economic standpoint cause he could have eliminated the crew he is about to cash in on.
You wrote that? That's actually pretty much on point. I agree with it
Well I never pasted it. Its my view having lived it.
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Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
For 11 years, he avoided almost all the elite prime fighters in all these weight classes he jumped to.
After the Castillo in 2002, it's all the way to 2007 and Hatton when next he'd fight an elite prime fighter. Then who for the next top prime elite fighter? Victor Ortiz in 2011? Victor with the Heart problem.
So many Great matches could've been made, but then if he fought the very best, he wouldn't be undefeated, not with so many Great talents that was there, and he couldn't accept the possibility of losing so he wouldn't sign for those fights. Not making all those Great matchups and not really rolling the dice is why he's good, but not Great.
Eventually he'll be like Roy Jones, taking loss after loss...
