Printable View
I think this whole case has been unfortunate. Zimmerman has been screwed by the media (namely NBC) and ignorant celebs who have pounded this idea of a guy just itching to shoot this poor innocent black teenager, but the fact that Treyvon a) (allegedly) initiated the confrontation and b) (undeniably) was beating the hell out of Zimmerman never gets brought up.
Does anyone here think he's guilty, and why? I haven't seen a good reason yet (including what I've heard from the prosecution).
I don't think he's guilty of murder. I think the situation was undeniably a tragic one but I don't think there's any intent there for a murder charge. Now in a civil case a wrongful death suit will no doubt have some legs.
I'd just assume this case vanish from my sight. People like Al Sharpton who is 100% dead set of Zimmerman's guilt and Nancy Grace who is just hysteria incarnate will attempt to boost their ratings by going over the top with the coverage from this case.
Zimmerman followed a kid who looked like he didn't belong in his neighborhood. Now for the people watching Sharpton's pathetic show they'll ready that as "he saw a black kid and followed him just because he was black", but when you think about how Trayvon was new to the area and probably didn't know his way around all that well and that he may or may not have been under the influence of a drug so yeah he really could have looked suspicious not just because he's black that IS a possibility that certain people don't want to accept. George Zimmerman seemed over zealous but having been in a neighborhood where there was a spree of break ins and seeing how impotent the Police were in doing anything to prevent it I don't blame him for keeping an eye on Trayvon.
The point of contention is how did the scuffle escalate to the point where Trayvon ended up shot...unless Zimmerman is mentally unstable or a total certified grade A asshole I don't know why he would have instigated any confrontation....Trayvon being followed most likely would have irked him and I completely understand that, I've been in neighborhoods and places where people look at me funny and I can tell they are following my movements more closely, but for whatever reason I have never once been in a fist fight because I was out of place somewhere. Zimmerman says Trayvon jumped him, if that's the case then Trayvon did something incredibly stupid that cost him his life. If Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation (of which signs point to NO) then yes I could see him being convicted, maybe of manslaughter instead of murder just because it would be extremely hard to prove his intention was to murder Trayvon.
Is the trial on soon?
Yeah, murder's a bit harsh in this case. If there was a scuffle and the shooting resulted from it, it's a manslaughter charge at most.
Even manslaughter would be a terrible miscarrage of justice. Classic self defense instance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Gotta be careful with that, Bean.
Don't want to open the door for all scuffles from now on to be permanently settled because someone has a gun.... and for that to be ok.
That door is already open in Florida with the "stand your ground" act, although I don't think this fits that act.
If you have a license to carry a firearm, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to use it if you're in danger.
I say if you decide to physically assault someone, you're taking your chances.
Common sense right there....know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to runQuote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Ok, I'm just saying... where do you draw the line regarding "being in danger".
Without getting off topic, I'd be careful with that kind of legislation. What if someone cuts in front of you at a hardware store line? What if you think rightly or wrongly that someone looked a little too long at your girlfriend? What if you complain in either of those cases... and the other guy is armed? Will he feel threatened and in danger? It just opens a whole 'nother can of worms.
If Zimmerman truly shot Trayvon as result of a good old-fashioned scuffle.... a self-defense verdict is walking on some truly thin ice, IMO.
So you think Zimmerman just shot Trayvon because his feelings got hurt?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
The laws of self defense are pretty clear I think. Being in danger would be someone posing a real threat of physical harm. No laws says anyone has to be nice to people or be polite, but there are pretty strict rules that say you can't just beat the shit out of someone.
Zimmerman certainly wasn't a willing participant in the scuffle so I think he should have every right to defend himself. The kid did some real damage, and you never know what can happen. Tons of people have been killed in street fights, you take a punch, hit your head and get a blood clot or some shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
The laws of self defense are pretty clear I think. Being in danger would be someone posing a real threat of physical harm. No laws says anyone has to be nice to people or be polite, but there are pretty strict rules that say you can't just beat the shit out of someone.
Zimmerman certainly wasn't a willing participant in the scuffle so I think he should have every right to defend himself. The kid did some real damage, and you never know what can happen. Tons of people have been killed in street fights, you take a punch, hit your head and get a blood clot or some shit.
You're at a bar and some guy shoves you.
You're armed, and you feel threatened, so you shoot the guy dead.
How should that be legally handled?
There's always the opportunity to remove yourself from that situation UNLESS someone is sitting on top of you and pounding your head into the ground....then yes you can shoot him without repercussion because (and follow me closely on this part) YOUR LIFE WAS IN DANGER.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Zimmerman was getting the shit kicked out of him as one can tell by the broken nose and how the back of his head was fucked up.
But hey what do I know, I'm smart enough not to get in fights
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThere's always the opportunity to remove yourself from that situation UNLESS someone is sitting on top of you and pounding your head into the ground....then yes you can shoot him without repercussion because (and follow me closely on this part) YOUR LIFE WAS IN DANGER.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Zimmerman was getting the shit kicked out of him as one can tell by the broken nose and how the back of his head was fucked up.
But hey what do I know, I'm smart enough not to get in fights
The guy at the bar felt... (and follow ME closely on this part) HIS LIFE WAS IN DANGER.
AND...... he's got a good lawyer to prove it.
There was only one exit... the guy who pushed him was 6'-8" 380 pounds, and had a tattoo of a dead man who looked just like him. He also took a couple of steps toward him, and he saw his life flash before his eyes.
NOW can he shoot him? ;)
By the way, is this the part where Greenbeanz butts into the conversation and says that I'm condescending?
'Cause the condescending part begins in post # 10, if we're keeping records here.
Why are you so hung up on your straw man argument? A push alone isn't life threatening unless there's a long drop involved. Besides Zimmerman wasn't "pushed" he was beaten up.
Look this is a forum. That means anybody is entitled to express their views in a thread. If you want an exclusive conversation use the chat function, or private message Lyle, but don't accuse me of butting into a conversation when I have not even commented. Also don't assume what I am going to say because that is ungracious, rude and downright condescending in and of itself. It was actually Andre who started the original thread back here http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ight=zimmermanQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThere's always the opportunity to remove yourself from that situation UNLESS someone is sitting on top of you and pounding your head into the ground....then yes you can shoot him without repercussion because (and follow me closely on this part) YOUR LIFE WAS IN DANGER.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Zimmerman was getting the shit kicked out of him as one can tell by the broken nose and how the back of his head was fucked up.
But hey what do I know, I'm smart enough not to get in fights
The guy at the bar felt... (and follow ME closely on this part) HIS LIFE WAS IN DANGER.
AND...... he's got a good lawyer to prove it.
There was only one exit... the guy who pushed him was 6'-8" 380 pounds, and had a tattoo of a dead man who looked just like him. He also took a couple of steps toward him, and he saw his life flash before his eyes.
NOW can he shoot him? ;)
By the way, is this the part where Greenbeanz butts into the conversation and says that I'm condescending?
'Cause the condescending part begins in post # 10, if we're keeping records here.
What do you mean he was beaten up ? Have they had the trial already or have you just made your mind up already ?Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Apparently it was God's plan for Zimmermann to Kill Martin so maybe he and his followers have already decided what the trial will discover
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD83PmBeaW4
I mean Trayvon physically attacked George Zimmerman to the point where he felt his life was in danger.
Again that is supposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
So Zimmerman's nose broke itself? OK....whateverQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzAgain that is supposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I'm not invested one way or another in how the case goes. The media coverage of the case has been awful....AWFUL. Zimmerman as a "white guy" :shakehead: just blatant race baiting
Surely that is for a judge and jury to decideQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongSo Zimmerman's nose broke itself? OK....whateverQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzAgain that is supposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
"Quiet from the bench".Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzAgain that is supposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
"Overruled, jury omit that last comment".Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongSo Zimmerman's nose broke itself? OK....whateverQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzAgain that is supposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzLook this is a forum. That means anybody is entitled to express their views in a thread. If you want an exclusive conversation use the chat function, or private message Lyle, but don't accuse me of butting into a conversation when I have not even commented. Also don't assume what I am going to say because that is ungracious, rude and downright condescending in and of itself. It was actually Andre who started the original thread back here http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ight=zimmermanQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThere's always the opportunity to remove yourself from that situation UNLESS someone is sitting on top of you and pounding your head into the ground....then yes you can shoot him without repercussion because (and follow me closely on this part) YOUR LIFE WAS IN DANGER.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Zimmerman was getting the shit kicked out of him as one can tell by the broken nose and how the back of his head was fucked up.
But hey what do I know, I'm smart enough not to get in fights
The guy at the bar felt... (and follow ME closely on this part) HIS LIFE WAS IN DANGER.
AND...... he's got a good lawyer to prove it.
There was only one exit... the guy who pushed him was 6'-8" 380 pounds, and had a tattoo of a dead man who looked just like him. He also took a couple of steps toward him, and he saw his life flash before his eyes.
NOW can he shoot him? ;)
By the way, is this the part where Greenbeanz butts into the conversation and says that I'm condescending?
'Cause the condescending part begins in post # 10, if we're keeping records here.
No big deal... just pointing out some facts.
Months ago you jumped all over my ass over some supposedly condescending comments I made to Lyle on a thread I began about a white college girl claiming "white discrimination". That created a big huge nasty mess between you and I. Now I'm just pointing out that it was Lyle who began the condescending (or sarcastic, patronizing/sing)... whatever you want to call it... in post 10. I ignored the comment, choosing instead to respond to a more seriously minded post by Beanflicker. Lyle jumps in and patronizes me yet again (post 13). It's all good.... eventually Lyle and I get to have a normal conversation. TBH, Lyle-TitoFan arguments are relatively benign and short-lived. At least I don't take them too seriously.
But my point is: If you're going to point out unprovoked patronizing/sing, do it across the board... not just when I do it.
But again... no big deal. Really.
I'm sure if you keep complaining about it something good will happen :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
You mean like you'll be walking down the street and get hit in the head with an obnoxious-eraser brick?
Except you'll probably get online, and post that Obama threw it.
No I mean if you keep randomly bringing up your beef with Greenbeanz (especially in threads where he wasn't even posting) then you're just inviting him to start another flame war with you....which I'm guessing you enjoy the attention you get from these little verbal scuffles seeing how you're taking a dig at me here and in the following post as well....Good work, you're slowly learning to be a trollQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
You mean like you'll be walking down the street and get hit in the head with an obnoxious-eraser brick?
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongNo I mean if you keep randomly bringing up your beef with Greenbeanz (especially in threads where he wasn't even posting) then you're just inviting him to start another flame war with you....which I'm guessing you enjoy the attention you get from these little verbal scuffles seeing how you're taking a dig at me here and in the following post as well....Good work, you're slowly learning to be a trollQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
You mean like you'll be walking down the street and get hit in the head with an obnoxious-eraser brick?
Who started the condescending shit on this thread, asshole?
Take a good guess.
Need some help?
Look back through the thread.
You responded to a post of mine directed at someone else with your patented sarcasm.
But no-o-o-o-o-o-o-o......
You'd rather keep up your obnoxious shit and continue it, until someone slaps your ass down.
We had an incident near here last week where a man returned to his home, in an area a bit off the path, and found a strange car in his drive and his front door kicked in. He took his pistol from his glovebox, went inside as was confronted by a guy with a pillowcase full of the homeowner's property. He shot the man dead. It turned out that that man had already broken into and robbed several other homes in that area.
What I couldn't believe was the response. Rather, the number of people saying that the homeowner had an 'obligation' not to enter his house- thereby provoking a confrontation- and that he should have locked himself in his vehicle and called the police. That got shouted down pretty quickly- this is Montana, after all- but I think we have let to many Californians move here.
I asked a simple question which you ignored....did you just now go back and get irritated about it? And the whole pushing thing....the fuck was that about "If someone pushes you can you shoot them?"....when I read posts like that I wonder if you have difficulty understanding when someone has an opportunity to remove themselves from a situation which could be dangerous. In the case of George Zimmerman, he apparently wasn't offered such a window to leave without firing a shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
http://static.ebony.com/bus_4_article-small_20484.jpg
http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/k...lightened2.jpg
Doesn't look like it was just something as innocent and avoidable as a "push" to me. My main gripe is with the media coverage which has looked like this
http://moonbattery.com/trayvon-marti...-zimmerman.jpg
To be honest I'm not affected either way guilty, not guilty whatever, but I'm also not going to parse out every single time when using a gun is justified especially to someone hell bent on gun control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongSo you think Zimmerman just shot Trayvon because his feelings got hurt?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Was that necessary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThere's always the opportunity to remove yourself from that situation UNLESS someone is sitting on top of you and pounding your head into the ground....then yes you can shoot him without repercussion because (and follow me closely on this part) YOUR LIFE WAS IN DANGER.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Zimmerman was getting the shit kicked out of him as one can tell by the broken nose and how the back of his head was fucked up.
But hey what do I know, I'm smart enough not to get in fights
You didn't get a rise out of me the first time, so if at first you don't succeed....
But bottom line: The case means little to me also. I was more shocked about the much less publicized case of the guy in Jacksonville who emptied his gun into a teenager-filled SUV at a gas station because they were playing loud music (and he wanted to play macho man in front of his girlfriend).
Although the following statement will go totally ignored by you, I've never made a big deal about Trayvon being black and Zimmerman not being black.
Maybe you hadn't seen how injured Zimmerman was, and if not then my bad, but the guy wasn't being tickled he was getting his ass thoroughly kicked as evidenced by the pictures. Now what caused the fight, how did the events play out, that MIGHT warrant a look at a manslaughter charge but if Zimmerman's story is to be believed and he was walking back to his car after getting the street sign name for the cops and was then attacked out of the blue by Trayvon then there is 0 case for murder or manslaughter it is a simple self defense case.Quote:
Was that necessary?
No, the media did and the MEDIA is what I have the issue with. Just like the Duke Lacrosse case, they're trying they're hardest to convict a guy before his case is heard in court. Just take a look at Al Sharpton's next show and tell me he's not trying to steer people into a certain frame of mind.Quote:
Although the following statement will go totally ignored by you, I've never made a big deal about Trayvon being black and Zimmerman not being black.
Trayvon Martin no longer has the luxury of being able to defend himself against the acusations that Zimmermans defence team are feeding the media. You have already made your mind up Lyle so why pretend otherwise?
If it pleases the court I would like to present Lyle's Exhibit A of Media BiasQuote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsLPkcXQjmA
....your thoughts?
My thoughts are firstly this is not a court of Law. We are not privvy to ALL the facts in the case. The idea that Media Bias is exclusively the domain of of those trying to explain the death of a young unarmed black guy by trying to invent a racial element that is not there, whilst the defendants team are really the victims in this misrepresentation of the truth is ludicrous.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIf it pleases the court I would like to present Lyle's Exhibit A of Media BiasQuote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsLPkcXQjmA
....your thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULNyXT6oHjQ
I would ask your thoughts but this is not a point scoring debate.
To most people outside of the states this case is pretty mind blowing. The idea that an unarmed teenager who was not trespassing is somehow responsible for being shot dead by a guy, because, you Lyle, and many others like you, assume that he started a fight with an ARMED man and therefore because the ARMED man was possibly losing and ....wait for it (because this is for many virtually incomprehensible) AFRAID FOR HIS OWN LIFE that somehow means the charges should at most be manslaughter ?
Media bias should be the least of your worries.
Wow this kinda turned into a shit show lol.
Hey Tito, to answer your question on page one, I understand what you're saying completely, in the logic that you don't deserve to get shot for pushing someone. I'm no lawyer so I can't tell you 100% how that would go but in Florida I think that falls under the "Stand Your Ground" act, where you're not legally bound to try to escape someone who is threatening you with physical harm. This really hinges on who started the conflict, you can't initiate a conflict with someone, and then shoot them when they retaliate.
I live in Canada so I'm surrounded by people who hate guns because our laws are very strict here. I happen to like the concept of firearm possession for self protection, especially for women and smaller guys. We seen you can take one punch from someone, fall down, hit your head and die or end up living the rest of your days like Gerald McClellan.
Sometimes people get shot doing home invasions, and people will say "well a thief doesn't deserve to die for stealing". Yeah maybe not, but if it's your house being broken into and you have kids, a wife, ect there, how do you know their intention is just to steal? It's not like you can go and ask him "hey, are you just here to steal my TV or are you going to rape and kill my family."
So in that way I think the individual should have the right to protect themselves, and when you do stupid shit like assault people or break into houses, you need to be prepared for consequences.
Yeah that's a tough one. Legally I don't know, but a burglar will never get sympathy from me.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
I thought that 911 call was really telling. He was told do not follow the suspect. Also was heard to use the term fucking coon. They are going to have a long day with those two points when trying to prove self defense 100%. The ballistics will be interesting, has direction ,angle and distance been released to view yet?