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Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
He had the style to beat everyone, nobody could hit him, he should have went into the Trinidad fight with no losses.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
I rank him pretty high especially after his big win over Julio Vasquez. I wonder why him and Camacho never fought? Because I think that could have been a very entertaining fight.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon09
I rank him pretty high especially after his big win over Julio Vasquez. I wonder why him and Camacho never fought? Because I think that could have been a very entertaining fight.
I thought his best performance was Chavez.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
I'd put him right in there with Gans, Leonard, Duran, Armstrong, Williams and the like. Easy top 10 at lightweight and maybe top 5 on many lists.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Pernell, to me, deserves the highest accolades you could give a boxer.
It drives me nuts that people think Duran was better, or that he would have whipped Pernell at LW.
For my money, nobody beats prime Sweetpea at LW. He would have made Duran look foolish.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Pernell, to me, deserves the highest accolades you could give a boxer.
It drives me nuts that people think Duran was better, or that he would have whipped Pernell at LW.
For my money, nobody beats prime Sweetpea at LW. He would have made Duran look foolish.
Man, you are one brave fella. I imagine they're going to give it to you for daring that Duran was not the best lightweight. I said this to people in the gym and it was like I talked bad about their mama. But I strongly agree with you. I just don't see anyone beating Pernell Whitaker at his best. I think Chavez was better than Duran as well. But clearly Whitaker was. Just one man's opinion.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jehoshaphat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Pernell, to me, deserves the highest accolades you could give a boxer.
It drives me nuts that people think Duran was better, or that he would have whipped Pernell at LW.
For my money, nobody beats prime Sweetpea at LW. He would have made Duran look foolish.
Man, you are one brave fella. I imagine they're going to give it to you for daring that Duran was not the best lightweight. I said this to people in the gym and it was like I talked bad about their mama. But I strongly agree with you. I just don't see anyone beating Pernell Whitaker at his best. I think Chavez was better than Duran as well. But clearly Whitaker was. Just one man's opinion.
I doubt people in your gym have ever even seen Duran fight or were born in his prime.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jerry Rice
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jehoshaphat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Pernell, to me, deserves the highest accolades you could give a boxer.
It drives me nuts that people think Duran was better, or that he would have whipped Pernell at LW.
For my money, nobody beats prime Sweetpea at LW. He would have made Duran look foolish.
Man, you are one brave fella. I imagine they're going to give it to you for daring that Duran was not the best lightweight. I said this to people in the gym and it was like I talked bad about their mama. But I strongly agree with you. I just don't see anyone beating Pernell Whitaker at his best. I think Chavez was better than Duran as well. But clearly Whitaker was. Just one man's opinion.
I doubt people in your gym have ever even seen Duran fight or were born in his prime.
Then you'd be wrong. We have several older guys in the gym. The 3 coaches are all at or around 60 and 2 guys in their 50s who help train. Also 2 guys near 40 who were once ranked as amateurs still train as such. I personally just hang out really. But I'm not talking about the youngsters in this occasion although they deserve a voice. Besides, there is plenty of tape out there. But we have a little lounge and its like barber shop talk. A few of us older fellas. We tend to get into talks/debates. They tend to think every newer era is softer. Too coddled. Maybe so. I personally think that when you get to the cream of the crop that arguments goes away.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
I'd put him right in there with Gans, Leonard, Duran, Armstrong, Williams and the like. Easy top 10 at lightweight and maybe top 5 on many lists.
I think only Duran would have beaten Sweat Pea at lightweight but at welter Pernell wins.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
I'd put him right in there with Gans, Leonard, Duran, Armstrong, Williams and the like. Easy top 10 at lightweight and maybe top 5 on many lists.
I think only Duran would have beaten Sweat Pea at lightweight but at welter Pernell wins.
That is cool. I'd put him just below the 5 I mentioned at 135 but have no issues with those who would rank him higher.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
I don't rank Whitaker as highly as most. If I ever took the time to make a list of the guys I consider the top 100 p4p fighters, he wouldn't be on it, but then neither would Ali.
As a LW he isn't beating Duran, Benny Leonard, Armstrong, Ike Williams, Gans. I don't see him beating Beau Jack or Bob Montgomery, after talking to people that saw them (and Whitaker) fight from ringside. I don't think he beats Lou Ambers, who gave Armstrong such hard fights. I don't think he beats Carlos Ortiz and I don't think he beats Ismael Laguna.
At WW, he doesn't do well with the champions of the division. Even the overlooked guys like Zivic beat him; he fought Robinson tooth and nail twice, beat LaMotta and lost 3 or 4 split decisions to him. Guys like Tommy Bell beat him, and he was never champ, same with Charlie Burley.
At LW he might make my top 20, if I ever made a list. Not my top 50 at WW. Too many really good fighters and Whitaker's shuck and jive nonsense wouldn't impress them and, offensively, he didn't have enough to hang with the guys that would fight through his games.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Just because guys have been around forever doesn't mean they are any more objective or less prone to revisionist history, if anything the opposite is true imo. I think many people are always biased towards the fighters which turned them on to the sport. The younger members of this forum will probably grow old talking about how so and so would have never beat a prime Roy Jones or Pacquiao, no matter what they learn about the sport or who else is around in 30 years.
Fritzie Zivic probably wouldn't make it out of the 2nd round without being DQ'ed in a modern prizefight, just for instance.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Just because guys have been around forever doesn't mean they are any more objective or less prone to revisionist history, if anything the opposite is true imo. I think many people are always biased towards the fighters which turned them on to the sport. The younger members of this forum will probably grow old talking about how so and so would have never beat a prime Roy Jones or Pacquiao, no matter what they learn about the sport or who else is around in 30 years.
Fritzie Zivic probably wouldn't make it out of the 2nd round without being DQ'ed in a modern prizefight, just for instance.
I think that there is a great deal of truth to that first part. Zivic was known as a very clever boxer with a good jab and solid right hand, as well as being a tremendous body puncher. He did a lot more than fight 'dirty'
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Pernell was a special talent. I find it insulting when people say old school guys would have beaten him, or Duran would have KO'd him. Whitaker was about as good as it gets at the sweet science. He'd have those idiots swinging and hitting air.
I don't know why people underrate Pernell so badly. How someone can only have Pernell in their top 20 is absolutely insane. Especially to rank guys over him who we've never seen fight, who all we know about is from press clippings. Sheesh.
To me, it's always like the science vs religion argument. You guys can believe the fantasy tales about guys from 100 years ago being complete world beaters who would chase our modern greats out of the ring. Worship and that church, be my guest.
Me? I'm going to believe in the greatness I can see.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
I'm sure he was, but if you're intentionally thumbing people in the eyes, throwing elbows like jabs and headbutting repeatedly on HBO it isn't going to fly. There are probably a bunch of journeyman today that could be world class if they got a pass for that.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Just because guys have been around forever doesn't mean they are any more objective or less prone to revisionist history, if anything the opposite is true imo. I think many people are always biased towards the fighters which turned them on to the sport. The younger members of this forum will probably grow old talking about how so and so would have never beat a prime Roy Jones or Pacquiao, no matter what they learn about the sport or who else is around in 30 years.
Fritzie Zivic probably wouldn't make it out of the 2nd round without being DQ'ed in a modern prizefight, just for instance.
There is truth in that but I cant help but be the sum of my parts. I try to be as objective as I can but also believe the reverse is true. Some believe boxing started in 1990 and anyone that came before that couldn't compete which is ridiculous and I wont go into that here. And the fact remains that some of these earlier guys were as good as people say they were.
It would be interesting to gather a top 15 Saddo atg list based on voting by the members in every weight class.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Just because guys have been around forever doesn't mean they are any more objective or less prone to revisionist history, if anything the opposite is true imo. I think many people are always biased towards the fighters which turned them on to the sport. The younger members of this forum will probably grow old talking about how so and so would have never beat a prime Roy Jones or Pacquiao, no matter what they learn about the sport or who else is around in 30 years.
Fritzie Zivic probably wouldn't make it out of the 2nd round without being DQ'ed in a modern prizefight, just for instance.
There is truth in that but I cant help but be the sum of my parts. I try to be as objective as I can but also believe the reverse is true. Some believe boxing started in 1990 and anyone that came before that couldn't compete which is ridiculous and I wont go into that here. And the fact remains that some of these earlier guys were as good as people say they were.
It would be interesting to gather a top 15 Saddo atg list based on voting by the members in every weight class.
Hey for sure, and boxing is a lot different than most sports in that we'll never know. I don't consider you an offender here by any means either. I'm just of the opinion that many, if not most people who have watched any sport for years tend to be less objective about the modern landscape of it, when it should be the other way around. It's a nostalgia thing as much as anything else imo.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Just because guys have been around forever doesn't mean they are any more objective or less prone to revisionist history, if anything the opposite is true imo. I think many people are always biased towards the fighters which turned them on to the sport. The younger members of this forum will probably grow old talking about how so and so would have never beat a prime Roy Jones or Pacquiao, no matter what they learn about the sport or who else is around in 30 years.
Fritzie Zivic probably wouldn't make it out of the 2nd round without being DQ'ed in a modern prizefight, just for instance.
There is truth in that but I cant help but be the sum of my parts. I try to be as objective as I can but also believe the reverse is true. Some believe boxing started in 1990 and anyone that came before that couldn't compete which is ridiculous and I wont go into that here. And the fact remains that some of these earlier guys were as good as people say they were.
It would be interesting to gather a top 15 Saddo atg list based on voting by the members in every weight class.
Hey for sure, and boxing is a lot different than most sports in that we'll never know. I don't consider you an offender here by any means either. I'm just of the opinion that many, if not most people who have watched any sport for years tend to be less objective about the modern landscape of it, when it should be the other way around. It's a nostalgia thing as much as anything else imo.
No offence taken and true enough. We sit right alongside those who think Marquez landed a lucky punch.;D
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
There's nothing lucky about that A side meth:cool:
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Great fighter, so good in fact, he sneaks into the top 20 of 'all time' IMO.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Great fighter, so good in fact, he sneaks into the top 20 of 'all time' IMO.
This
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Pernell was a special talent. I find it insulting when people say old school guys would have beaten him, or Duran would have KO'd him. Whitaker was about as good as it gets at the sweet science. He'd have those idiots swinging and hitting air.
I don't know why people underrate Pernell so badly. How someone can only have Pernell in their top 20 is absolutely insane. Especially to rank guys over him who we've never seen fight, who all we know about is from press clippings. Sheesh.
To me, it's always like the science vs religion argument. You guys can believe the fantasy tales about guys from 100 years ago being complete world beaters who would chase our modern greats out of the ring. Worship and that church, be my guest.
Me? I'm going to believe in the greatness I can see.
Absolutely on point! Pernell as great as he was is somehow underrated. How I still can't figure it out. Dude in his prime was pretty much not hittable while still in the pocket. I don't see anyone matching up well with Pernell. Who sees Pernell's style and said this guy (Insert name) matches up well with him? I am not trying to start an argument but I am seriously interested in seeing something I may be missing. SRL at 147 is the only guy I can see possibly beating Sweet Pea and only at 147 or 154.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.
You're joking right finito ?
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jerry Rice
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.
You're joking right finito ?
Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..
Arguello:
- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along
- Royal Kobayashi
- Rafael Limon
- Bobby Chacon
- Ruben Castillo
- Jose Luis Ramirez
- Ray Mancini
Whitaker:
- Greg Haugen
- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him
- Azuma Nelson
- Jorge Paez
- Rafael Pineda
- Buddy Mcgirt
Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..
I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..
- Arguello
- Barrera
- Whitaker
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jerry Rice
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.
You're joking right finito ?
Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..
Arguello:
- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along
- Royal Kobayashi
- Rafael Limon
- Bobby Chacon
- Ruben Castillo
- Jose Luis Ramirez
- Ray Mancini
Whitaker:
- Greg Haugen
- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him
- Azuma Nelson
- Jorge Paez
- Rafael Pineda
- Buddy Mcgirt
Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..
I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..
- Arguello
- Barrera
- Whitaker
Who/what all did Sweet Pea miss that makes you call him an underachiever? By the way, don't forget to add these to his accomplishments...1 on all p4p lists, 4 weight division champ, lightweight champ through junior middleweight champ in 4 years, beat 154 pound champion Vasquez(who had recently beaten and knocked down like 5 times the undefeated Winky Wright), he beat Buddy McGirt twice not once, he actually beat Ramirez twice(got robbed first time)and beat Chavez amongst other names like black mamba, Hurtado 2X, and Rivera. I'm sure we don't have to debate the Chavez Sr. decision debacle here. The DLH fight was close enough to not call a robbery although I had PW winning that fight at a point of his career where he was on his way out. Remember DLH wanted nothing with a rematch. Sweet Pea took out a page in USA today calling for the rematch and even went public offering to take short money. I don't see how you rate Arguello and Barerra with Sweet Pea. Neither of those guys were ever considered the best guy in boxing and you can't just count victories. Both of those guys were clearly beat several times in their primes...amongst those losses were stoppages. Remember 5'5" or 5'6" Whitaker and Barerra are like the same height yet could you really see Barerra winning a title(a legitimate one at that) at 154 or even 147 for that matter. Those guys aren't in the same league as Sweet Pea let alone place them ahead of him. Heck, the taller Arguello didn't even do that. Maybe this was a joke or you're just drinking and feeling riled up:p.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jehoshaphat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jerry Rice
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.
You're joking right finito ?
Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..
Arguello:
- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along
- Royal Kobayashi
- Rafael Limon
- Bobby Chacon
- Ruben Castillo
- Jose Luis Ramirez
- Ray Mancini
Whitaker:
- Greg Haugen
- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him
- Azuma Nelson
- Jorge Paez
- Rafael Pineda
- Buddy Mcgirt
Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..
I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..
- Arguello
- Barrera
- Whitaker
Who/what all did Sweet Pea miss that makes you call him an underachiever? By the way, don't forget to add these to his accomplishments...1 on all p4p lists, 4 weight division champ, lightweight champ through junior middleweight champ in 4 years, beat 154 pound champion Vasquez(who had recently beaten and knocked down like 5 times the undefeated Winky Wright), he beat Buddy McGirt twice not once, he actually beat Ramirez twice(got robbed first time)and beat Chavez amongst other names like black mamba, Hurtado 2X, and Rivera. I'm sure we don't have to debate the Chavez Sr. decision debacle here. The DLH fight was close enough to not call a robbery although I had PW winning that fight at a point of his career where he was on his way out. Remember DLH wanted nothing with a rematch. Sweet Pea took out a page in USA today calling for the rematch and even went public offering to take short money. I don't see how you rate Arguello and Barerra with Sweet Pea. Neither of those guys were ever considered the best guy in boxing and you can't just count victories. Both of those guys were clearly beat several times in their primes...amongst those losses were stoppages. Remember 5'5" or 5'6" Whitaker and Barerra are like the same height yet could you really see Barerra winning a title(a legitimate one at that) at 154 or even 147 for that matter. Those guys aren't in the same league as Sweet Pea let alone place them ahead of him. Heck, the taller Arguello didn't even do that. Maybe this was a joke or you're just drinking and feeling riled up:p.
Poster is right beating the champ at 154lb cements his greatness.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jerry Rice
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.
You're joking right finito ?
Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..
Arguello:
- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along
- Royal Kobayashi
- Rafael Limon
- Bobby Chacon
- Ruben Castillo
- Jose Luis Ramirez
- Ray Mancini
Whitaker:
- Greg Haugen
- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him
- Azuma Nelson
- Jorge Paez
- Rafael Pineda
- Buddy Mcgirt
Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..
I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..
- Arguello
- Barrera
- Whitaker
The flaw in this argument is that you're treating boxing's subjective and often corrupt scoring as the final judge. Pernell was 1-1 against Ramirez only because the judges where watching a different first fight. With the wisdom of time on our side, we should able to reward him a 2-0.
More importantly, you can add to that a 1-0 against Julia Cesar Chavez, who didn't want anything to do with him after being subjected to a clinic. Whitaker dismantled a fellow HOFer in his prime.
One may also consider that an aging Whitaker fought a prime ODLH to that point that a decision going his way would have been reasonable.
I don't see any reason to respect the scorecards when they don't reflect reality.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Top 20 p4p all time for sure in my book.
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Re: Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jehoshaphat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jerry Rice
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.
You're joking right finito ?
Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..
Arguello:
- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along
- Royal Kobayashi
- Rafael Limon
- Bobby Chacon
- Ruben Castillo
- Jose Luis Ramirez
- Ray Mancini
Whitaker:
- Greg Haugen
- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him
- Azuma Nelson
- Jorge Paez
- Rafael Pineda
- Buddy Mcgirt
Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..
I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..
- Arguello
- Barrera
- Whitaker
Who/what all did Sweet Pea miss that makes you call him an underachiever? By the way, don't forget to add these to his accomplishments...1 on all p4p lists, 4 weight division champ, lightweight champ through junior middleweight champ in 4 years, beat 154 pound champion Vasquez(who had recently beaten and knocked down like 5 times the undefeated Winky Wright), he beat Buddy McGirt twice not once, he actually beat Ramirez twice(got robbed first time)and beat Chavez amongst other names like black mamba, Hurtado 2X, and Rivera. I'm sure we don't have to debate the Chavez Sr. decision debacle here. The DLH fight was close enough to not call a robbery although I had PW winning that fight at a point of his career where he was on his way out. Remember DLH wanted nothing with a rematch. Sweet Pea took out a page in USA today calling for the rematch and even went public offering to take short money. I don't see how you rate Arguello and Barerra with Sweet Pea. Neither of those guys were ever considered the best guy in boxing and you can't just count victories. Both of those guys were clearly beat several times in their primes...amongst those losses were stoppages. Remember 5'5" or 5'6" Whitaker and Barerra are like the same height yet could you really see Barerra winning a title(a legitimate one at that) at 154 or even 147 for that matter. Those guys aren't in the same league as Sweet Pea let alone place them ahead of him. Heck, the taller Arguello didn't even do that. Maybe this was a joke or you're just drinking and feeling riled up:p.
Poster is right beating the champ at 154lb cements his greatness.
I said the same thing in an earlier post. Vasquez is 1 of his most underrated wins but to me it really put a stamp on his achievements.
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I think that the fact that his style wasn't as crowd pleasing as other and at time he made it look so easy hurts his standing in the minds of some fans but he is one of my all time faves without question
