manny is about the same as he has been for years

unlike most people, i feel that pac hasnt really improved or gotten worse for the past 10 years or so. people have been saying that he has started to go downhill the last few years but i have never thought that was true. the main argument is about the knockouts that he has been lacking for the past while. the difference is that he has been fighting guys with really good chins recently. the rios fight showed me that pac is the same fighter as always. he can still move well and he still has a good punch and good chin. i feel that his speed is about the same too. and dont forget that he was beating JMM in their fight pretty easily before he got KO'd.

He looked about 80% of his best tonight.

That's still enough to beat everyone except Mayweather and maybe Marquez.

Against Marquez in their last fight I thought Manny was pure speed and blitz... Probably as fast as we have seen him in the last 10 years... During the 24/7 shows for this fight with Rios he looked as fast as I have ever seen him and I thought he actually went up another level worlds beyond what normal human handspeed in boxing could be like.

Tonight tho I think he mite have slowed up a little, and I think we saw close to 80% of his past handspeed potential.

In saying that, if he were to fight Marquez again, I think he goes allz out and blitzes and redlines his handspeed. Marquez jus brings out that mongrel/killer instinct out of Manny. But the 80% handspeed or speed/pace we saw tonight would still trouble most out there...

Yea he's cool.. He just needs to stay away from Marquez and Floyd if he wants to keep his winning streak.

He should go for Bradley and the other young guns..

Which is fantastic. Nobody in boxing is as good to watch as Pac when it's a onesided whitewash.

I will say he's slowed but there are other factors contributing to his performance. Marquez catching him in the last fight was part planning practice and application by JMM and Nacho.

His performance against Rios is a mental issue. Manny needed to get past this one without incident to start to fully put this one behind him. That's why even though he could hit Rios at will, he didn't light him up at the end to put an exclamation mark on it. He didn't want to run into anything that brought it all crashing back. Especially with Rios, as that's his only chance to turn the tides (First fight w/ Alvarado). Manny should have did a better job clinching Rios on the inside as some of those rabbit punches had Manny overthinking early on.

Better assessment on the next time out depending on the opponent and their capability.

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

I will say he's slowed but there are other factors contributing to his performance. Marquez catching him in the last fight was part planning practice and application by JMM and Nacho.

His performance against Rios is a mental issue. Manny needed to get past this one without incident to start to fully put this one behind him. That's why even though he could hit Rios at will, he didn't light him up at the end to put an exclamation mark on it. He didn't want to run into anything that brought it all crashing back. Especially with Rios, as that's his only chance to turn the tides (First fight w/ Alvarado). Manny should have did a better job clinching Rios on the inside as some of those rabbit punches had Manny overthinking early on.

Better assessment on the next time out depending on the opponent and their capability.

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did jmm and nacho plan manny busting jmm up until the ko? pac was whooping him and people say he should stay away from jmm? if pac would've not went in for the kill and fought the kinda fight he did against rios, he would've stopped jmm. jmm will not fight him again because he knows he was in trouble....imo

I think he has slowed a little, the KO to Marquez has made Pacquiao less of a risk taker. But sticking to the game plan should see him victorious over most

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Originally Posted by chris6878

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

I will say he's slowed but there are other factors contributing to his performance. Marquez catching him in the last fight was part planning practice and application by JMM and Nacho.

His performance against Rios is a mental issue. Manny needed to get past this one without incident to start to fully put this one behind him. That's why even though he could hit Rios at will, he didn't light him up at the end to put an exclamation mark on it. He didn't want to run into anything that brought it all crashing back. Especially with Rios, as that's his only chance to turn the tides (First fight w/ Alvarado). Manny should have did a better job clinching Rios on the inside as some of those rabbit punches had Manny overthinking early on.

Better assessment on the next time out depending on the opponent and their capability.

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did jmm and nacho plan manny busting jmm up until the ko? pac was whooping him and people say he should stay away from jmm? if pac would've not went in for the kill and fought the kinda fight he did against rios, he would've stopped jmm. jmm will not fight him again because he knows he was in trouble....imo

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Pac "was" ........ JMM "DID" he "FINISHED" Pac -- Accept the facts loser !!!

JMM does not even remotely resemble Rios in any facet of boxing!

Slurp slurp slurp slurp suck that Pa-cock. Rios maaaaaaaaaan , we're talking Rios .............. ala Iverson!!

* No skill
* No Speed
* No head movement
* No lateral movement
* No Speed
* No Brains
* No infight adjustment ability
* Could not handel mid level boxers like Abril and Alvarado

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Which is fantastic. Nobody in boxing is as good to watch as Pac when it's a onesided whitewash.

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Yup those HBO guys have always loved Pac , so much they repeatedly failed to let the auduence know when JMM was hitting Pac until they had no choice but to throw/ show some excitement JMM's way. I loved the way Roy Jones was so up Pacs ass then tried to sway to JMM after the KO to gain some credability.

Nobody in boxing beats Arums fighters like Pac. Please do not make it seem like Pac has fought the best when in their prime outside of Barrera and JMM. Morales was already battle worn. ODLH retired, catchweight, dead on arrival due to coming down in weight. Outside of JMM & Bradley Pac's opponets have either come into the fight on a loss or a loss within their last 3 fights . Do the work and disprove my facts!

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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Which is fantastic. Nobody in boxing is as good to watch as Pac when it's a onesided whitewash.

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Yup those HBO guys have always loved Pac , so much they repeatedly failed to let the auduence know when JMM was hitting Pac until they had no choice but to throw/ show some excitement JMM's way. I loved the way Roy Jones was so up Pacs ass then tried to sway to JMM after the KO to gain some credability.

Nobody in boxing beats Arums fighters like Pac. Please do not make it seem like Pac has fought the best when in their prime outside of Barrera and JMM. Morales was already battle worn. ODLH retired, catchweight, dead on arrival due to coming down in weight. Outside of JMM & Bradley Pac's opponets have either come into the fight on a loss or a loss within their last 3 fights . Do the work and disprove my facts!

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You're a jackass.

Pacqauio is an all time great. Rios wasn't a huge win, but it was great to watch the lil Filipino doing his thing again.

Haters and trolls can nitpick even the finest resume.

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Originally Posted by chris6878

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

I will say he's slowed but there are other factors contributing to his performance. Marquez catching him in the last fight was part planning practice and application by JMM and Nacho.

His performance against Rios is a mental issue. Manny needed to get past this one without incident to start to fully put this one behind him. That's why even though he could hit Rios at will, he didn't light him up at the end to put an exclamation mark on it. He didn't want to run into anything that brought it all crashing back. Especially with Rios, as that's his only chance to turn the tides (First fight w/ Alvarado). Manny should have did a better job clinching Rios on the inside as some of those rabbit punches had Manny overthinking early on.

Better assessment on the next time out depending on the opponent and their capability.

---

did jmm and nacho plan manny busting jmm up until the ko? pac was whooping him and people say he should stay away from jmm? if pac would've not went in for the kill and fought the kinda fight he did against rios, he would've stopped jmm. jmm will not fight him again because he knows he was in trouble....imo

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What fight were you watching? The rounds were simple to score. Pac clearly won 1 & 2, Marquez clearly won 3 & 4, Pac won 5 and Marquez knocked him out in the 6th. So 47-46 Pacquiao at the time of the stoppage is hardly "whooping him" now is it? Say Pac gets up from that bullet of a right hand he walked onto, he's now a point behind on the scorecards. Again, hardly "whooping him" is it? Pacquiao hasn't whopped Marquez in 42 rounds of trying so don't try and rewrite history with fanboy comments and face the reality of what actually happened. He walked onto a perfectly timed right hand and got knocked the fuck out.

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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Which is fantastic. Nobody in boxing is as good to watch as Pac when it's a onesided whitewash.

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Yup those HBO guys have always loved Pac , so much they repeatedly failed to let the auduence know when JMM was hitting Pac until they had no choice but to throw/ show some excitement JMM's way. I loved the way Roy Jones was so up Pacs ass then tried to sway to JMM after the KO to gain some credability.

Nobody in boxing beats Arums fighters like Pac. Please do not make it seem like Pac has fought the best when in their prime outside of Barrera and JMM. Morales was already battle worn. ODLH retired, catchweight, dead on arrival due to coming down in weight. Outside of JMM & Bradley Pac's opponets have either come into the fight on a loss or a loss within their last 3 fights . Do the work and disprove my facts!

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Thanks for setting me straight man. So Pac is not fantastic or exciting to watch afterall. I'll never watch him again. Fact.

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Originally Posted by chris6878

if pac would've not went in for the kill and fought the kinda fight he did against rios, he would've stopped jmm.

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There is no fighting JMM like he fought Rios. They are completely different fighters.

JMM always gave Pac problems because he's effectively aggressive, and he doesn't let Pacquaio jump in, shoe shine, and jump out: he fires back with hard, FAST counters. And of course, he moves. He doesn't stand in front of Pacquiao like so many other opponents have done.

JMM will always be a complete dog fight for Pacquaio. Pac would have stopped him? What makes you say that? Pac has fought him 4 times now, dropped him countless times, shattered his nose, and each time JMM has came through it.

Pac looked great until the KO in MARQUEZIV because of what Marquez was doing. Marquez was making no attempt to box Pac. He was only looking to KO Pac. He wasn't finishing exchanges with the jab as Pac left likee Marquez is one to do because he didn't care about points. In fact he wasn't doing anything after Pac..... he was always looking to punch with Pac. That's how you KO a guy that is faster than you. If Marquez had wanted to box Pac it would have looked like the third fight where everyone recognizes Marquez won but Pac gets the decision.

If boxing fans want to play make believe and pretend fighters don't age it's their prerogative but at least recognize the boxing aspects of a boxing match."Pac looked great" because Marquez chose, Marquez could have chosen to box and Pac wouldn't have looked so great. It wasn't about Pac.

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

unlike most people, i feel that pac hasnt really improved or gotten worse for the past 10 years or so. people have been saying that he has started to go downhill the last few years but i have never thought that was true. the main argument is about the knockouts that he has been lacking for the past while. the difference is that he has been fighting guys with really good chins recently. the rios fight showed me that pac is the same fighter as always. he can still move well and he still has a good punch and good chin. i feel that his speed is about the same too. and dont forget that he was beating JMM in their fight pretty easily before he got KO'd.

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*Ive always felt the same. I hadn't seen one change or slip in speed. his speed is blinding with big power. He's no koing fighters,not cuz he's slipped, but becuz he's fighting bigger opposition...in the end, these guys are beat up... even Marquez was beat the hell up when he landed that one punch... it was a hell of a punch though. Never have I seen a fight where people said"i think he's dead"... that was crazy.

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by chris6878

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

I will say he's slowed but there are other factors contributing to his performance. Marquez catching him in the last fight was part planning practice and application by JMM and Nacho.

His performance against Rios is a mental issue. Manny needed to get past this one without incident to start to fully put this one behind him. That's why even though he could hit Rios at will, he didn't light him up at the end to put an exclamation mark on it. He didn't want to run into anything that brought it all crashing back. Especially with Rios, as that's his only chance to turn the tides (First fight w/ Alvarado). Manny should have did a better job clinching Rios on the inside as some of those rabbit punches had Manny overthinking early on.


Better assessment on the next time out depending on the opponent and their capability.

---

did jmm and nacho plan manny busting jmm up until the ko? pac was whooping him and people say he should stay away from jmm? if pac would've not went in for the kill and fought the kinda fight he did against rios, he would've stopped jmm. jmm will not fight him again because he knows he was in trouble....imo

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What fight were you watching? The rounds were simple to score. Pac clearly won 1 & 2, Marquez clearly won 3 & 4, Pac won 5 and Marquez knocked him out in the 6th. So 47-46 Pacquiao at the time of the stoppage is hardly "whooping him" now is it? Say Pac gets up from that bullet of a right hand he walked onto, he's now a point behind on the scorecards. Again, hardly "whooping him" is it? Pacquiao hasn't whopped Marquez in 42 rounds of trying so don't try and rewrite history with fanboy comments and face the reality of what actually happened. He walked onto a perfectly timed right hand and got knocked the fuck out.

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pac was also winning that round with a ton of momentum before the ko. Im not taking anything away from jmm, but round 6 looked like the beggining of the end for jmm....until the ko

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by chris6878

if pac would've not went in for the kill and fought the kinda fight he did against rios, he would've stopped jmm.

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There is no fighting JMM like he fought Rios. They are completely different fighters.

JMM always gave Pac problems because he's effectively aggressive, and he doesn't let Pacquaio jump in, shoe shine, and jump out: he fires back with hard, FAST counters. And of course, he moves. He doesn't stand in front of Pacquiao like so many other opponents have done.

JMM will always be a complete dog fight for Pacquaio. Pac would have stopped him? What makes you say that? Pac has fought him 4 times now, dropped him countless times, shattered his nose, and each time JMM has came through it.

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I didnt mean to say fight jmm like he did rios, I was trying to say not rushing in for the kill like he did with he got ktfo

Manny beat a limited opponent which was hand picked for him to get a first victory in over 2 years. Until he fights a more respectable opponent we cannot say how far he has slipped.

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Originally Posted by Master

Manny beat a limited opponent which was hand picked for him to get a first victory in over 2 years. Until he fights a more respectable opponent we cannot say how far he has slipped.

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Exactly. I think Manny was slipping even before he got KOed against Marquez. It's amazing how fighting a guy who was hand picked to make Pac look good all of sudden has people believing he has a shot against the likes of Floyd.

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Originally Posted by zhubin

It's amazing how fighting a guy who was hand picked to make Pac look good all of sudden has people believing he has a shot against the likes of Floyd.

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Floyd has been handpicking opponents for over 10 years since the 2002 Castillo controversy...

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Originally Posted by zhubin

Exactly. I think Manny was slipping even before he got KOed against Marquez. It's amazing how fighting a guy who was hand picked to make Pac look good all of sudden has people believing he has a shot against the likes of Floyd.

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Doesn't matter if he's hand picked or not. All you need to see is if the speed and reflexes are still there, which they seem to be.

Manny Pacquiao is definitely NOT the same.
Only johnny-come-latelies would say he is.

Way back in 2003 is when he made the big time with the Barrera upset.
He developed and continually improved, and was in the zone 2008-2010.
Since the Nov 2010 Margarito fight, Pacquiao's been on the slide.
It's been a slow slide though, not the abrupt kind where a guy shows up one night and simply just doesn't have it anymore.

His speed ain't the same, his killer-instinct ain't the same, even his pace and energy levels aren't the same. Still has good punch resistance aside from the Marquez shot which was a perfect shot and would've took out any welterweight. He's still a top fighter though even if he's not what he used to be.

Floyd ain't the same either. He has excellent technical skills which will allow him to compete with much younger guys even as his physical abilities aren't the same anymore. Floyd ain't as fast as he used to be, his reflexes have slowed a bit so he gets hit more nowadays, his pace has slowed making him far more economical with his pot-shots. His face is even looking old these days.

Both these guys are still faster than most fighters, but they don't have the super-human blurry-fast speed they used to have.

It would've been prime-to-prime a couple of years ago; now it would be two slightly-past-it guys and who has fallen further? I wouldn't pay for it...

I didn't pay for Roy Jones/Tito Trinidad, Roy Jones/Bernard Hopkins II either...

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

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Originally Posted by zhubin

It's amazing how fighting a guy who was hand picked to make Pac look good all of sudden has people believing he has a shot against the likes of Floyd.

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Floyd has been handpicking opponents for over 10 years since the 2002 Castillo controversy...

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Floyd's last fight was against a guy who was bigger than him and considered by many to be one of the bright new stars of boxing. Manny just fought a punch drunk, limited stiff. Stop hating.

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Originally Posted by zhubin

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

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Originally Posted by zhubin

It's amazing how fighting a guy who was hand picked to make Pac look good all of sudden has people believing he has a shot against the likes of Floyd.

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Floyd has been handpicking opponents for over 10 years since the 2002 Castillo controversy...

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Floyd's last fight was against a guy who was bigger than him and considered by many to be one of the bright new stars of boxing. Manny just fought a punch drunk, limited stiff. Stop hating.

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nobody on earth thought that canelo had a chance to win.....not even him. Canelo hasn't done nothing to say he is a all time great or close to it. both Floyd and pac had handpicked stiffs that were both limited.

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Originally Posted by zhubin

Stop hating.

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The term "hater" is one of those terms used by the immature as an out rather than engaging in intelligent discourse backed by research, assessments, and logic-based conclusions. Stop being childish...buttbreath.

Neither Canelo nor Brandon Rios are stiffs. Any Top 3 man is elite, and they both warrant Top 3 rankings. They both can fight. However, Pacquiao and Mayweather have been on the P4P list for years, Pacquiao being awarded the "Fighter of the Decade" award. They're on a different level, and the proof of how good they really are is that even a bit past it, they're still too much for Top 3 guys who are in their mid-20s and about a decade younger...

Pacquiao of 2009 is the prime version.


speed, power, angles, defense, chin, timing.


The Rios version lacks the power because they train for ultimate speed. Pac was thinking of landing combos and not primarily landing a huge shot like the one he hit Hatton with.

Pac is fine.

I just dont get how everyone suddenly thought he was done due to 1 knockout. (Are people retarded or just overly negative?)

I mean WTF so what.

It means absolutely nothing. He just got caught. He woke up again. No difference. So what.

Yet it seems the general consensus that he is done due to a few seconds of unconsciousness and an otherwise brilliant performance.

He just needs to work on his defense the one area roach sucks at, also a few PED's wouldnt hurt, lastly he needs to devote himself to boxing rather than his political role etc etc

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Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Pac is fine.

I just dont get how everyone suddenly thought he was done due to 1 knockout. (Are people retarded or just overly negative?)

I mean WTF so what.

It means absolutely nothing. He just got caught. He woke up again. No difference. So what.

Yet it seems the general consensus that he is done due to a few seconds of unconsciousness and an otherwise brilliant performance.

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People had reservations after seeing what happened to Roy Jones after his first KO loss.

That wasn't Pac's first KO loss, but it was the first one in a loooooong time since he became a star.

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Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Pac is fine.

I just dont get how everyone suddenly thought he was done due to 1 knockout. (Are people retarded or just overly negative?)

I mean WTF so what.

It means absolutely nothing. He just got caught. He woke up again. No difference. So what.

Yet it seems the general consensus that he is done due to a few seconds of unconsciousness and an otherwise brilliant performance.

He just needs to work on his defense the one area roach sucks at, also a few PED's wouldnt hurt, lastly he needs to devote himself to boxing rather than his political role etc etc

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I don't think a single person here ever said Pacquiao was finished. If anyone's retarded, it's yourself...

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Originally Posted by Hulk

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Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Pac is fine.

I just dont get how everyone suddenly thought he was done due to 1 knockout. (Are people retarded or just overly negative?)

I mean WTF so what.

It means absolutely nothing. He just got caught. He woke up again. No difference. So what.

Yet it seems the general consensus that he is done due to a few seconds of unconsciousness and an otherwise brilliant performance.

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People had reservations after seeing what happened to Roy Jones after his first KO loss.

That wasn't Pac's first KO loss, but it was the first one in a loooooong time since he became a star.

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at least with jones, he looked terrible against tarver in their first fight. he had just come back down from HW. i think that KO did affect him, but im guessing that he was already on his way out before the KO.

i think that its easy to say that pac was in his prime for the few years that he was dominant rather than looking at the facts. pac fought opponents that made him look good. opponents that were hand picked. this isnt saying that he isnt or wasnt a great fighter, but there is a reason that he looked unstoppable during that stretch unlike the rest of his career. did it just so happen that in one fight, he just transformed into a different fighter? pac has improved a little, but i dont think that he really has improved much since his first win over barrera. people can say what they want about him developing a right hand but he already had that. he just learned to use it a little more but nothing that significant. the only thing that i would say he really changed was that he learned to fight on the outside better.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Neither Canelo nor Brandon Rios are stiffs. Any Top 3 man is elite, and they both warrant Top 3 rankings. They both can fight. However, Pacquiao and Mayweather have been on the P4P list for years, Pacquiao being awarded the "Fighter of the Decade" award. They're on a different level, and the proof of how good they really are is that even a bit past it, they're still too much for Top 3 guys who are in their mid-20s and about a decade younger...

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RIOS is a stiff you stand corrected