The emotion of the fan

the magarito loaded gloves thing cropped up again in a thread recently and it got me thinking

for the record i dont want this thread to turn into a discussion about the gloves and the severity of it and all that, although i know its probably inevitable

but do you think Hollyfield would be as hated a Margo clearly is by the general fan if he had been in the same situation as margo was with the gloves? and do you think the general assumption would be that hollyfield knew what was happening and that that wasnt the first time he had done it

the poll is only a yes/no answer

yes - Hollyfield would be as hated as Margo is and he would have known about the plaster and he would have done it in previous fights
No - Hollyfield would not be hated as much as Margo and he might not have known about the plaster and he may not have done it in previous fights

i hope you catch my drift

coz reading back it certainly could have been worded better

im sure @jehoshaphat (who is of above average intelligence) would get where im coming from :)

Eric, its all good and everything between us man but you have to be real about this. Not only did he attempt to bring weapons into the ring but the man still refuses to admit he did anything wrong. You insert any name into that and people will turn on him. I use to be a Margarito fan. I was one of those people who suspected Floyd of ducking him. I bet on Margarito beating Cotto in the first fight. But one thing I don't do is let what I want the truth to be cloud what the truth actually is. If I know my bias for someone is so great then I would just remain silent instead of being outright wrong and go against what is the truth. If that was my own brother I would be disgusted and tell him he needs to never box again. I would not support him in boxing ever again. In boxing people are already trying to concuss each other. You can't bring that, which is essentially weapons, into the ring. Do you know that one of the issues MMA is still not legal in all of the US and in some other countries is because the gloves are too small? Plaster in a boxing glove??? What the f*#! man?? Margarito wasn't portrayed as some villain or bad boy or Floyd-hated before he got caught with those wraps. Most hardcore boxing fans have boxed before and its real easy to relate to and imagine how terrifying that would be to get assaulted with.

Yes

Because, and I'm splitting hairs here, when you load your gloves you are showing a total disregard for your opponents well being. You don't care if he winds up ruined physically as a fighter or even dead.

When you use PEDS, you are looking for an advantage mostly in training because of age, laziness or a lack of desire. You are not deliberately setting out to physically damage your opponent, you are just desperate to win.
Like I said, I'm splitting hairs but that's my opinion.

I think so. Margarito was, to my recollection, a very loved and respected figure in boxing pre-Mosley.

People were sympathetic to him because he had been avoided for years and was finally getting the big fights. People loved his aggressive, exciting style and the fact that he embodied the hard working, blue collar athlete. I don't remember anyone openly hating Margarito, seemed like he got nothing but love until it turned out he was a cheesy cheater.

I think the same would have happened with Holyfield. I think a lot of people kind of secretly disliked him for whipping Tyson, and if it came out that he was loading his gloves people would have discounted his big wins and hated him just as bad as they hated Margarito.

That's a very serious offense, I think a lot of people felt cheated by what Marg did, even more so than if he was found to be using PEDs.

I think loading gloves is an even worse offense than PEDs.

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

Yes

Because, and I'm splitting hairs here, when you load your gloves you are showing a total disregard for your opponents well being. You don't care if he winds up ruined physically as a fighter or even dead.

When you use PEDS, you are looking for an advantage mostly in training because of age, laziness or a lack of desire. You are not deliberately setting out to physically damage your opponent, you are just desperate to win.
Like I said, I'm splitting hairs but that's my opinion.

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with all due respect man the bit in bold just isnt true :)

and the bit about not setting out to physically damage your opponent and being desperate to win is a bit of a funny thing to say when you are talking about boxing, i dont realy know where to start with it

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

I think so. Margarito was, to my recollection, a very loved and respected figure in boxing pre-Mosley.

People were sympathetic to him because he had been avoided for years and was finally getting the big fights. People loved his aggressive, exciting style and the fact that he embodied the hard working, blue collar athlete. I don't remember anyone openly hating Margarito, seemed like he got nothing but love until it turned out he was a cheesy cheater.

I think the same would have happened with Holyfield. I think a lot of people kind of secretly disliked him for whipping Tyson, and if it came out that he was loading his gloves people would have discounted his big wins and hated him just as bad as they hated Margarito.

That's a very serious offense, I think a lot of people felt cheated by what Marg did, even more so than if he was found to be using PEDs.

I think loading gloves is an even worse offense than PEDs.

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the bit in bold is an opinion that i can understand

there are so many factors involved in making a statement like youre last sentence it just cant be a valid opinion

unless you know all of the facts about peds and the advantages it gives you, the type and volumes of peds that we are talking about, and the way in which they are used - and you also know the severity of the loaded gloves and the volume of use then you just couldnt jump to a conclusion like that

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Originally Posted by erics44

the magarito loaded gloves thing cropped up again in a thread recently and it got me thinking

for the record i dont want this thread to turn into a discussion about the gloves and the severity of it and all that, although i know its probably inevitable

but do you think Hollyfield would be as hated a Margo clearly is by the general fan if he had been in the same situation as margo was with the gloves? and do you think the general assumption would be that hollyfield knew what was happening and that that wasnt the first time he had done it

the poll is only a yes/no answer

yes - Hollyfield would be as hated as Margo is and he would have known about the plaster and he would have done it in previous fights
No - Hollyfield would not be hated as much as Margo and he might not have known about the plaster and he may not have done it in previous fights

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If Holyfield screwed with his gloves and was caught, he would have faced the exact same ridicule as Margarito and Resto and ftr that infraction is both colour blind and nationality blind. Its like predetermining ones own crucifixion.

@Beanflicker has a point though because specific steroids amount to the same thing at least philosophically. Suppose for the sake of argument that Mancini tested positive after the Kim fight?
He may very well have been charged with criminal negligence causing death or reckless endangerment causing death.

Still, there is something about the gloves which separates it from just about any other infraction and it fundamentally has everything to do with pugilism itself and not a law written outside of it.


Having said that it disturbs me today on the amount of glove shaving that is allowed in certain regions. There are times when you cant even see the glove decal. It probably had something to do with that young Mexicans death a couple of weeks back.

Glove infractions stand out because its something that ought to be easily controlled. "Juice" cannot be controlled as designer drugs are being cooked up on a daily basis and lots of them undetectable and especially with advertised testing and scheduled blood letting.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by erics44

the magarito loaded gloves thing cropped up again in a thread recently and it got me thinking

for the record i dont want this thread to turn into a discussion about the gloves and the severity of it and all that, although i know its probably inevitable

but do you think Hollyfield would be as hated a Margo clearly is by the general fan if he had been in the same situation as margo was with the gloves? and do you think the general assumption would be that hollyfield knew what was happening and that that wasnt the first time he had done it

the poll is only a yes/no answer

yes - Hollyfield would be as hated as Margo is and he would have known about the plaster and he would have done it in previous fights
No - Hollyfield would not be hated as much as Margo and he might not have known about the plaster and he may not have done it in previous fights

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If Holyfield screwed with his gloves and was caught, he would have faced the exact same ridicule as Margarito and Resto and ftr that infraction is both colour blind and nationality blind. Its like predetermining ones own crucifixion.

@Beanflicker has a point though because specific steroids amount to the same thing at least philosophically. Suppose for the sake of argument that Mancini tested positive after the Kim fight?
He may very well have been charged with criminal negligence causing death or reckless endangerment causing death.

Still, there is something about the gloves which separates it from just about any other infraction and it fundamentally has everything to do with pugilism itself and not a law written outside of it.


Having said that it disturbs me today on the amount of glove shaving that is allowed in certain regions. There are times when you cant even see the glove decal. It probably had something to do with that young Mexicans death a couple of weeks back.

Glove infractions stand out because its something that ought to be easily controlled. "Juice" cannot be controlled as designer drugs are being cooked up on a daily basis and lots of them undetectable and especially with advertised testing and scheduled blood letting.

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a flawed opinion to suggest that this makes it different than peds

you take steroids you punch harder

and to say loaded gloves are worse than peds is one massively sweeping statement

its like saying all gingers pull lots of birds, i know some of us do, but its a lot to do with personality as well as looks, and personality varies so much

You mean Holyfield ? not Hollyfield ?

I can't answer because some see a distinction between PEDs and glove tampering. That's understandable. I personally do not. To me having an unfair advantage in a sport where hurting the opponent is the goal is wrong any way you slice it. I hate Holy for being a cheat as much as I hate Margaret. I used to be a huge Vargas fan, f him. I used to be a huge Toney fan, f him. I was a lesser fan of Shane and Holy, f them. But others see it differently. I can't speak to the numbers on who sees it differently.

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by erics44

the magarito loaded gloves thing cropped up again in a thread recently and it got me thinking

for the record i dont want this thread to turn into a discussion about the gloves and the severity of it and all that, although i know its probably inevitable

but do you think Hollyfield would be as hated a Margo clearly is by the general fan if he had been in the same situation as margo was with the gloves? and do you think the general assumption would be that hollyfield knew what was happening and that that wasnt the first time he had done it

the poll is only a yes/no answer

yes - Hollyfield would be as hated as Margo is and he would have known about the plaster and he would have done it in previous fights
No - Hollyfield would not be hated as much as Margo and he might not have known about the plaster and he may not have done it in previous fights

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If Holyfield screwed with his gloves and was caught, he would have faced the exact same ridicule as Margarito and Resto and ftr that infraction is both colour blind and nationality blind. Its like predetermining ones own crucifixion.

@Beanflicker has a point though because specific steroids amount to the same thing at least philosophically. Suppose for the sake of argument that Mancini tested positive after the Kim fight?
He may very well have been charged with criminal negligence causing death or reckless endangerment causing death.

Still, there is something about the gloves which separates it from just about any other infraction and it fundamentally has everything to do with pugilism itself and not a law written outside of it.


Having said that it disturbs me today on the amount of glove shaving that is allowed in certain regions. There are times when you cant even see the glove decal. It probably had something to do with that young Mexicans death a couple of weeks back.

Glove infractions stand out because its something that ought to be easily controlled. "Juice" cannot be controlled as designer drugs are being cooked up on a daily basis and lots of them undetectable and especially with advertised testing and scheduled blood letting.

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a flawed opinion to suggest that this makes it different than peds

you take steroids you punch harder

and to say loaded gloves are worse than peds is one massively sweeping statement

its like saying all gingers pull lots of birds, i know some of us do, but its a lot to do with personality as well as looks, and personality varies so much

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There are two trains of thought. It comes down to a question of control. We can assume I suppose that all fighters or at least a majority are all using peds. That changes the dynamic just as the fundamental purpose of the sport does in relationship to gloves. Nobody period should be able to get away with junk gloves in this day and age. It can be and should be witnessed by all from the wrap to the fit and to the ring. The same can not be said about ped use. It could very well be an even playing field in that regard.

Good point IamInuit, but I reject it haha

I'm gonna recycle my old analogy just for the sheer attention seeking fun of it....

The difference between using PEDS and using load gloves is like the difference between a Male pornographic performer using Viagra or using a prosthetic penis ;D

Seriously though, loaded gloves are such a gross shortcut to success in comparison to any other forms of cheating, bar somehow disabling the opponent prior to the fight.

I don't know but I guarantee that since you used Holyfield, peds will be interjected though it was never part of the question ;D Say it was a Mariusz Wach (Wlads punching bag), then you'd have the best of both worlds with a PED suspension and a commission saying he needed to change his gloves because of possible tampering and missing padding. Aka cheating. Though that seems to have been forgotten or not as important as a American heavyweight champion or a Mexican tough guy with a mullet cast in the villain role and literally found guilty by the announce team before he even made it to the ring.

I think if a guy of Holyfield's stature and accomplishment had been found with similar gloves you would have seen nation wide call for reform in commission standards and numerous investigations. The sport would have been put on trial to a degree as much as Margarito was. I don't think Margarito ran a career with 'loaded' gloves and just skated past commssions, officials and other scrutinizing corner men all the while. I can't buy that and to do so is to conclude he has a truckload of company.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by erics44

the magarito loaded gloves thing cropped up again in a thread recently and it got me thinking

for the record i dont want this thread to turn into a discussion about the gloves and the severity of it and all that, although i know its probably inevitable

but do you think Hollyfield would be as hated a Margo clearly is by the general fan if he had been in the same situation as margo was with the gloves? and do you think the general assumption would be that hollyfield knew what was happening and that that wasnt the first time he had done it

the poll is only a yes/no answer

yes - Hollyfield would be as hated as Margo is and he would have known about the plaster and he would have done it in previous fights
No - Hollyfield would not be hated as much as Margo and he might not have known about the plaster and he may not have done it in previous fights

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If Holyfield screwed with his gloves and was caught, he would have faced the exact same ridicule as Margarito and Resto and ftr that infraction is both colour blind and nationality blind. Its like predetermining ones own crucifixion.

@Beanflicker has a point though because specific steroids amount to the same thing at least philosophically. Suppose for the sake of argument that Mancini tested positive after the Kim fight?
He may very well have been charged with criminal negligence causing death or reckless endangerment causing death.

Still, there is something about the gloves which separates it from just about any other infraction and it fundamentally has everything to do with pugilism itself and not a law written outside of it.


Having said that it disturbs me today on the amount of glove shaving that is allowed in certain regions. There are times when you cant even see the glove decal. It probably had something to do with that young Mexicans death a couple of weeks back.

Glove infractions stand out because its something that ought to be easily controlled. "Juice" cannot be controlled as designer drugs are being cooked up on a daily basis and lots of them undetectable and especially with advertised testing and scheduled blood letting.

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a flawed opinion to suggest that this makes it different than peds

you take steroids you punch harder

and to say loaded gloves are worse than peds is one massively sweeping statement

its like saying all gingers pull lots of birds, i know some of us do, but its a lot to do with personality as well as looks, and personality varies so much

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There are two trains of thought. It comes down to a question of control. We can assume I suppose that all fighters or at least a majority are all using peds. That changes the dynamic just as the fundamental purpose of the sport does in relationship to gloves. Nobody period should be able to get away with junk gloves in this day and age. It can be and should be witnessed by all from the wrap to the fit and to the ring. The same can not be said about ped use. It could very well be an even playing field in that regard.

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well if your opinion is that peds are acceptable because it is the norm then any kind of glove loading, even the least amount, is worse than any kind of peds using, even the most severe

there for, if that were your opinion, then yes in 100% of cases loaded gloves are worse than peds

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Originally Posted by erics44

there are so many factors involved in making a statement like youre last sentence it just cant be a valid opinion

unless you know all of the facts about peds and the advantages it gives you, the type and volumes of peds that we are talking about, and the way in which they are used - and you also know the severity of the loaded gloves and the volume of use then you just couldnt jump to a conclusion like that

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What do you mean, it can't be a valid opinion?

I never made any claims as to which one is more dangerous, ect. But in my mind, there is a clear distinction between taking an illegal substance to improve how your body functions and bringing a weapon into the ring with you. If people want to disagree, that's fine. They are both forms of cheating and both are absolutely unforgivable, but I view loaded gloves in a worse light. If you don't, fair enough.

On a side note, I'm willing to bet I know more about PEDs (types, effects, usage, history, ect) than PROBABLY anybody here.

There are a few guys here who seem to know what they're talking about, but most people here sound ignorant whenever PEDs are brought up.

If anyone here thinks that a steroid exists that can replicate the impact of having a loaded glove, you don't know steroids and you should cease talking about this subject.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

If anyone here thinks that a steroid exists that can replicate the impact of having a loaded glove, you don't know steroids and you should cease talking about this subject.

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You know that is a good point. I for one am interested in someone contradicting this statement with facts or something of substance.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

If anyone here thinks that a steroid exists that can replicate the impact of having a loaded glove, you don't know steroids and you should cease talking about this subject.

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It's not about replicating an impact. And it's not just steroids. That's why people use the term PEDs. It's proven that secondary impacts after you are concussed are worse than the initial concussion. So one guy could have a loaded glove and blast a guy out early and another guy could be on EPO and not blast a guy out but use this extra stamina to hit a guy 50 more times than he could have with his natural stamina. Each shot being extra risk. There are 10 thousand variables and that's why I make no distinction between one form of cheating and another. It's all dangerous because the sport starts out dangerous adding unnatural danger on top is scummy. Only dirtbags do it. If they're all cheating then they're all dirtbags.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

It's not about replicating an impact. And it's not just steroids. That's why people use the term PEDs. It's proven that secondary impacts after you are concussed are worse than the initial concussion. So one guy could have a loaded glove and blast a guy out early and another guy could be on EPO and not blast a guy out but use this extra stamina to hit a guy 50 more times than he could have with his natural stamina. Each shot being extra risk. There are 10 thousand variables and that's why I make no distinction between one form of cheating and another. It's all dangerous because the sport starts out dangerous adding unnatural danger on top is scummy. Only dirtbags do it. If they're all cheating then they're all dirtbags.

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That's a valid point and I'm not saying you're wrong at all. Both are cheating, both are reprehensible, both should stain any athlete caught. Both undoubtedly allow you to do more damage to your opponent.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

If anyone here thinks that a steroid exists that can replicate the impact of having a loaded glove, you don't know steroids and you should cease talking about this subject.

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It's not about replicating an impact. And it's not just steroids. That's why people use the term PEDs. It's proven that secondary impacts after you are concussed are worse than the initial concussion. So one guy could have a loaded glove and blast a guy out early and another guy could be on EPO and not blast a guy out but use this extra stamina to hit a guy 50 more times than he could have with his natural stamina. Each shot being extra risk. There are 10 thousand variables and that's why I make no distinction between one form of cheating and another. It's all dangerous because the sport starts out dangerous adding unnatural danger on top is scummy. Only dirtbags do it. If they're all cheating then they're all dirtbags.

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I agree that all cheaters in this type of sport should be looked down at. We can treat all cheaters the same but all cheating is not on the same level. I'm sure we all can agree that getting twice by the same kind of punch is worse than getting hit once. And chances are you're not getting hit once and that's the end of the fight. More than likely a lot of damage is brought on and then the ending punch or punches come. But even so there is no study involving comparing someone getting hit once by a weaponized punch as opposed to getting hit twice by regular punches. People can and have died after one bare knuckle shot. The amount of impact is very important because one shot can be worse than two. You can't compare one of the same punch to two of the same punch if were comparing PEDs to loaded gloves. Those are two very different punches. Lets say a Malignaggi punch has half the impact of a Tyson punch. Then in this case 2 punches would be very much less harmful than 1.

The problem with PEDs though is that the use is rampant and guys simply aren't getting caught. People are generally naive (how many times have I head "I don't think X is on steroids, he doesn't seem like that kind of guy") and go into denial.

But if you want to discredit everyone who has used PEDs to succeed, fair enough, but you're going to be discrediting a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

If anyone here thinks that a steroid exists that can replicate the impact of having a loaded glove, you don't know steroids and you should cease talking about this subject.

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mate steroids don't replicate loaded gloves

completely irrelevant

and from your replies I would say you knowing more about roids than anyone on here isn't true :)

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Originally Posted by erics44

mate steroids don't replicate loaded gloves

completely irrelevant

and from your replies I would say you knowing more about roids than anyone on here isn't true :)

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Weak troll job... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by erics44

mate steroids don't replicate loaded gloves

completely irrelevant

and from your replies I would say you knowing more about roids than anyone on here isn't true :)

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Weak troll job... :rolleyes:

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awe common man, don't revert to calling me a troll

ill get the insults out of the way for you now

"how old are you"

"you don't know anything about boxing"

in discussions about sport there are opinions and facts, the difference is very clear, in another thread @ross said its a fact that fury has progressed more than chisora but really that isn't a fact its an opinion, and im just saying that so we have a clear distinction between the two

I now have 2 facts for you and one opinion related to this topic

Fact 1

Its is possible that taking peds can give a boxer a clearer advantage and make him more dangerous to his opponent than a boxer with loaded gloves

Fact 2

It is possible that when taking peds that Roy Jones, Mosley or Holyfield got a bigger advantage and were more dangerous to their opponents than Margarito would have been with his loaded gloves if he hadn't have been caught against Mosley

Opinion

On at least 1 occasion Roy Jones, Mosely and/or Holyfield got a bigger advantage and were more dangerous to their opponents than Margarito would have been with his loaded gloves if he hadn't have been caught against Mosley

LMAO.

Maybe you should look up what a "fact" actually is. A fact is an undeniable truth, not a "it's possible".

Dummy. You're out of your league.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

LMAO.

Maybe you should look up what a "fact" actually is. A fact is an undeniable truth, not a "it's possible".

Dummy. You're out of your league.

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it is a fact that it is possible , sounds pretty reasonable to me

i'm a troll and a dummy in consecutive posts, sounds a bit like you've lost your cool and you have no come back :)

Eric let me say this Holyfeild has never failed a drug test and had a 26 year career. I think it safe is safe to say if he was using yet never got caught most top athletes are using peds. So i believe Margarito getting caught for gloves was also on peds so he pretty much a double cheat which is pretty bad dude.

Same thing can be said about guys that come in 15 to 20 pounds over the limit.... something has to be wrong with that. That's more damaging than ped's.

When Gatti took those BEATINGS from DLH and Floyd, I cheered... even though he was being severly brutalized. I cheered because Gatti was doing that same thing to smaller, less experienced guys, for more than half his career.

Good business.

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Originally Posted by erics44

it is a fact that it is possible

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It's not possible. You have nothing to back it up with. You are masquerading an uneducated opinion as fact because you're a troll or you're incredibly stupid.