Ring Generalship

What is it in your view? Obviously it's supposed to be a deteemining factor in scoring a bout but what is it to you? Here is was it isn't, it isn't a guy staying out of punching 's range. I have only heard about 20 seconds of Brian Kenny comments because I don't want the undercard spoiled. I am not going to say Lara was running away from a fight but in all actuality he was. Ring Generalship has to mean that you can control the fight from any distance, not that you can negate it from any distance. Of course from an eight foot gap Canelo is useless so is Lara. Canelo won the fight to me on first viewing. I'm as big of a ring general guy as anyone, but Lara wasn't dictating pace so much as running and being (cue this poison word) negative. I haven't read responses here yet except for OumaFan' s (twin) but I hope I don't find outrage. I could have made a separate thread on body punching. Those punches are the only ones that mattered tonight. Great fight, I love Lara but Canelo won. He is now the golden boy and that subjects him to unjust hatred but he made a great fight.

Agreed, 100%.

I like Lara and wanted him to win, but he fought like shit and so feared, had no proper answer for what Canelo brought to the ring.

A ring general is usually an exceptionally brave and shrewd fighter, who usually had a heightened perception of how a fight looks outside odd the ring.

A body shot is only worth the same as a head shot. So whilst a body shot may look flash, it is a single scored punch as is a directly landed headshot. I don't draw a distinction between the two in a scoring sense.

Ring generalship is about doing what you want to do and making your opponent do what he doesn't want to do. In that sense both fighters did that in the rounds I thought they won. Lara was making Canelo miss a LOT of punches with his Cuban style and outlanding Canelo, then at times Canelo looked to be coming on with pressure and body attacks. Overall on a round by round basis, I thought Lara won the fight, a close, not very fun, technical victory.

Scoring a fight is a combination of generalship, effective aggression, defense and how much Oscar powder you have been slipped. It is on that basis that I now fully understand the scoring of Judge Martinez.

Ring generalship is a fancy word for hitting and not getting hit, in other words fighting smart.

I don't think we have a consistent definition of what pro boxing is supposed to be. It seems like everybody judges fights by their own definition, like we're at an art museum looking at paintings.

Some people will say Lara had the ring generalship because he was moving effectively and dictating range and pace. Some people will say Canelo had the ring generalship because he was the one moving forward and "making the fight", and Lara had to react to everything he was doing. I have no idea who's right anymore.

Every time there's a controversial decision, people spout cliches that have absolutely no bearing in reality, but for some reason now have somehow become law. Things like "you can't win a fight going backwards" (I've seen hundreds of fights dominated by going backwards), "you have to really beat up the champ to take his belt" (actually it should be you have to win more rounds than the champ to take his belt. What, is a judge supposed to say "well fighter A won that round clearly, but it wasn't a domination so I'm gonna give it to Fighter B because he's the champ". What the fuck is that?)

So yeah, I don't know how you're supposed to judge a pro boxing bout anymore. I thought it was about clean, effective punching and/or effective aggressiveness. But I'm constantly told things like "this isn't the amateurs this is pro". So fuck, I don't know anymore.

Professional Boxing

The scoring process 'sucks'.

The post became absolutely useless when it was said that Canelos punches were the only ones that mattered. If you can't see how wrong that statement is there is no reason to discuss further.

People aren't upset about the outcome. They're upset about 117-111

Ring generalship is dictating the fight, controlling the where, when, how...etc. Watch Hop vs Tito as a prime example. Watch Floyd vs Chico. Ring generals control the pace, distance and location of the fight to suit their strengths.

Some people confuse outstanding speed and defense with ring generalship. Roy n Manny r examples of guys who r fast n athletic, great fighters, but not ring generals in my opinion. They fight everyone the same way n r rhythm fighters who use speed n power to capitalize on openings. Floyd n Hop r great at fighting off the ropes when it benefits them, dominating the center of the ring, using movement to offset punchers, pot shotting

I didn't wanna waste the money on that weak card so I can't comment on the scorecards. From reading the round by round tough, it seemed that most of the rounds were VERY close and would go to the guy whose style was preferred. Sometimes a fight can be closer that what is represented on the scorecards because although numerous rounds r razor close, if one of the guys wins the majority of those close rounds the scoring is lopsided. This sounds like one of those cases but again, I didn't get to see the fight so I am just speculating.

I agree with @amat - I would just add that there were spots where Lara used the "stick and move" style well but much of the time it was just "move." Canelo SD was a fine result (as would Lara SD have been) even if the 117-111 card was off by a couple of rounds. No robbery.

Lara should know by now that running isn't going to win him close fights. Presuming that is the case, the reason why he ran was probably due to Canelo effectiveness at short range. If Lara had decided to stick and move more often he would have been more susceptible to trading punches with Canelo, which he couldn't figure out how to do with success. He made a decision to run to avoid the exchanges and should deal with the consequences.

The negative style Lara used has the effect of allowing Canelo, who fights in spurts, to refuel and load back up. If Lara had pressed it more a bit, it might have tired Canelo out.

I don't know how Lara gets another big fight after this performance frankly.

Lara ALWAYS fights like that..I don't see why there's surprise.

A ring general MIXES IT UP and gives different looks...they move backwards....then foreward...fight on the inside then outside.

Lara just backpaddles...he only has one gear...reverse.

He is no ring general..

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

The post became absolutely useless when it was said that Canelos punches were the only ones that mattered. If you can't see how wrong that statement is there is no reason to discuss further.

People aren't upset about the outcome. They're upset about 117-111

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I think there's an issue of semantics here, possibly. I agree with amat to some extent here - a body shot that has visible effect is more valuable than a jab which conversely has little effect. In amateur boxing, a scoring punch is a scoring punch, but in professional boxing, the punch's effect must also be factored into the score. Thus, fewer body shots with more effect can score higher than more jabs with lesser effect.

That being said, Lara did mix in some really nice combos, whipping Canelo's head back in several places. I think your assessment of the scoring outrage is right on the money. I think most of us wouldn't have a problem with 115-113 either way.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

A body shot is only worth the same as a head shot. So whilst a body shot may look flash, it is a single scored punch as is a directly landed headshot. I don't draw a distinction between the two in a scoring sense.

Ring generalship is about doing what you want to do and making your opponent do what he doesn't want to do. In that sense both fighters did that in the rounds I thought they won. Lara was making Canelo miss a LOT of punches with his Cuban style and outlanding Canelo, then at times Canelo looked to be coming on with pressure and body attacks. Overall on a round by round basis, I thought Lara won the fight, a close, not very fun, technical victory.

Scoring a fight is a combination of generalship, effective aggression, defense and how much Oscar powder you have been slipped. It is on that basis that I now fully understand the scoring of Judge Martinez.

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A body shot is supposed to mean as much as a head shot in the amateurs with Olympic style scoring. In the professionals we are expected to decide a difference in punches. I thought Canelo's body shots meant more (and I thought he landed more than Shostats gave him credit for) than the (sometimes) fleeting shots of Lara. The straight lefts are the only shots the Cuban stood his ground on and he seemed to give up on those in round four. Half the time Lara hit Canelo, it was as he was turning him so obviously those punches aren't going to register as much as the loud, digging blows of Alvarez. Also, I'm not debating a 117-11 scorecard here because I don't agree with that card but it doesn't surprise me either and I don't think it's a case of corruption.

I'll get to the other replies later but my only point is that Lara was not what I think of as a ring general. Rigondeaux, Ward, Mayweather etc. keep you out of punching range for no more than a second at a time then work themselves into a position that works for them. Lara did not control the ring but instead controlled the pace, which is not the same thing. He decided the fight would be contested five seconds at a time. If he would have just thrown more shots off of a planted back foot then I would halfway buy that argument but he didn't. I don't know, Viva La Argentina.

Ring generalship, to me, is controlling where and when the action will happen.
I don't think Canelo or Lara did that consistently.

This fight in particular had a severe lag and choppiness the first few rounds so as far as fully scoring it was impossible. But from what I saw Lara fought exactly like he has always fought and I do not consider that 'running', while at the same time its certainly not a traditional consistent defensive boxer. Lara is a spoiler and boils down the pace, he gets booed and does not care a bit. One minute he'll shoot nice a combination, a hard left hand, the next he'll stab a jab slide off and grab you. He has always showed signs and susceptibility to being outworked and outhustled once you get past the window dressing in the front of his shop and force his ankles and high head. Alvarez looked to win the fight with effective bodywork and harder shots but at times looked confused and half hearted with attack. Frankly...I thought he could have very likely scored a tko had he forced the pace and not watched his work and let off but a full rewatch is in order when the replay it. That was the most frustrating thing to me as well as 117-111. Ring general to me is a fighter who controls and decides the action and ring real estate. Not so much a 'style' but showing multiple adjustments and exploiting his opponents mistakes and helping him make more.

I honestly feel like the PPV fight last night highlighted the decline of boxing in recent years. Canelo is a titlist, and has some athletic ability n tools, but isn't a well rounded professional in my opinion. Watch guys like Hop, Floyd, JMM and Ward today. Watch past greats like Duran, Hagler, Leonard, Chavez...etc., n watch how they can box when it is needed n how they can skillfully force the action when that tactic is necessary. Canelo is a good kid, but has no business being a titlist or on PPV until he becomes a well rounded pro. Imagine what Terry Norris would've done to this guy in his prime at 154...

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

I honestly feel like the PPV fight last night highlighted the decline of boxing in recent years. Canelo is a titlist, and has some athletic ability n tools, but isn't a well rounded professional in my opinion. Watch guys like Hop, Floyd, JMM and Ward today. Watch past greats like Duran, Hagler, Leonard, Chavez...etc., n watch how they can box when it is needed n how they can skillfully force the action when that tactic is necessary. Canelo is a good kid, but has no business being a titlist or on PPV until he becomes a well rounded pro. Imagine what Terry Norris would've done to this guy in his prime at 154...

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He was thrust into the spotlight before his time possibly, but he's performed well against top guys, other than Mayweather. No one is calling him Chavez, Hagler etc. yet. He's only 23. Let's see where he's at in 4 years. I think he needs a world class trainer, not necessarily because the Reynosos are bad but because he's learned what he can from them and it's time to learn from a different teacher.

Rant, think we r saying the same thing. I'm not saying he doesn't have potential or isn't going to be a great fighter one day, just saying he isn't PPV worthy now n that shows the decline in overall state of the game. I agree that he needs a trainer

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

Rant, think we r saying the same thing. I'm not saying he doesn't have potential or isn't going to be a great fighter one day, just saying he isn't PPV worthy now n that shows the decline in overall state of the game. I agree that he needs a trainer

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Absolutely. He looks really good in spots though, doesn't he? And he looks like he has a real fighter's heart with charisma of a superstar.

For a while I thought GB was force-feeding us this Mexican Ginger, who didn't deserve the spotlight, now he deserves it. It's just a matter of what he does with it. We can't say he's really avoided anyone at 154. He's faced Trout, Lara and Floyd, all of which on paper, should be tough style match-ups for him.

One thing that might be an issue in the future is that he looks almost too big for 154 and too small for 160, but let me ask this, who would you favor between Quillin and Canelo now?

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

I honestly feel like the PPV fight last night highlighted the decline of boxing in recent years. Canelo is a titlist, and has some athletic ability n tools, but isn't a well rounded professional in my opinion. Watch guys like Hop, Floyd, JMM and Ward today. Watch past greats like Duran, Hagler, Leonard, Chavez...etc., n watch how they can box when it is needed n how they can skillfully force the action when that tactic is necessary. Canelo is a good kid, but has no business being a titlist or on PPV until he becomes a well rounded pro. Imagine what Terry Norris would've done to this guy in his prime at 154...

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Meh I think you're being too hard on the kid. Look at his last 4 fights: Austin Trout, Floyd Mayweather, Angulo, and Lara. Two slickster southpaw runners and the greatest fighter of this generation and probably the best in-ring talent since SRR. Angulo was a gimme style wise, but those 3 guys were fucking brutal match ups style wise. Those are guys you're not going to look good against, and he held his own. And he's not even 24 yet. He's got many big fights ahead of him, and to be honest with guys like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Cotto, ect in their twilight years, boxing is going to need a big earner like him going forward.

In my opinion Quillin is a bad style match up for Canelo because he is the larger man and probably a little faster n slicker. Canelo will look great against guys that come to him since he is a good counterpuncher, can hot pretty hard n is a big guy for 154. He needs a Manny Steward, Bill Miller, Georgie Benton type of trainer who can get him better at the things that will make him more versatile offensively.

Also, since he likes beig the bigger guy and is at 154, I don't like him I'm match ups vs top 160 pounders like GGG, Quillin...etc. If he can develop some additional dimensions and grow into. 160 naturally, then I may favor him over those guys. Right now I think he matches up better with GGG but I'm not sure he can take that punch.