Can Alvarez EVER be great after losing comprehensively to Mayweather?

? I don't think he will ever be considered in the same league whateever he does because he lost so comprehensively - it won't matter that he was "young and inexperienced" imo - I think boxings mantle will have to be taken by another fighter who never lost of Mayweather (if it's in the welter division etc)

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

? I don't think he will ever be considered in the same league whateever he does because he lost so comprehensively - it won't matter that he was "young and inexperienced" imo - I think boxings mantle will have to be taken by another fighter who never lost of Mayweather (if it's in the welter division etc)

Thoughts?

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I think being young and inexperienced is a pretty good excuse actually. Also many fighters lost fights but went on to have impressive careers regardless. If he's got what it takes, I'm sure he'll be fine.

I think if Saul cleans up and unifies the 154 lb and has a record number of defences and wins a portion of the middleweight title and then wins a title at super middle then he can be considered a quality fighter. Like Hopkins losing to Roy early on.

Carl Froch and Ward springs to mind.

Greatness isn't being the best boxer its having the best fights with the best names.

The way he lost it may well show us certain limitations that will keep him from being great regardless, but just for the actual result I don't see how it's that bad. He WAS very young and inexperienced, and despite losing so wide I think he showed some solid skills that night. He didn't have the feet to press Mayweather and try what so many others have, it may have seemed stupid trying to boxing him in hindsight, but he was doing some clever things and Floyd was slipping some big shots by a hair all night. That was just a beautiful fight by Floyd, could his last great performance.

I honestly have a difficult time fitting Alvarez and greatness in the same sentence. Not that he doesn't have huge things ahead but just don't see that mass appeal-explosion in the ring or outside of it. Maybe I'm off. A help would be moving up because I have a feeling they will hand him the winner of Molina vs Bundrage for a trinket or a retread Clottey and that certainly does not yell great. Fellow champ Andrade is now fighting for a vacant Middle strap which will leave he and Charlo 1-2. I think that would be a very solid fight.

I dont think so, mainly because I think Lara beat him too and he got pushed by Trout. He just isnt anything special.

It's a great thread! I reckon Canelo will be one of the stars of boxing when Floyd has gone, but Great is an overused word. He can never be great, because let's be fair Floyd Schooled him. Although he was young, he can't possibly be called inexperienced, he was a World champ with a record of 42-0-1 when Floyd beat him and he had more names on his CV than most (Khan for example!) :lickish:

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

It's a great thread! I reckon Canelo will be one of the stars of boxing when Floyd has gone, but Great is an overused word. He can never be great, because let's be fair Floyd Schooled him. Although he was young, he can't possibly be called inexperienced, he was a World champ with a record of 42-0-1 when Floyd beat him and he had more names on his CV than most (Khan for example!) :lickish:

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Fair enough, but he did turn pro at 15 and had roughly 35 pro fights before he was 20 years old, I doubt many of those guys were anything but fodder. Chavez Sr probably had way more fights at the same age and had never fought anybody! Not saying Canelo has a prayer of being that good of course, but I think he beat Lara and is improving, it's to early to act like he's been found out or tarnished badly imo.

marquez be considered an ATG?

at his peak he lost every second of every round to floyd

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Originally Posted by erics44

marquez be considered an ATG?

at his peak he lost every second of every round to floyd

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Haha! That is funny. JMM was coming up and Floyd didn't even make the contracted and agreed upon weight. That isn't a hit on JMM at all, and I would argue that JMM fought much tougher competition than Floyd did and provided much more excitement. I rank Floyd higher, but JMM is an ATG and definitely a HOF fighter.

Canelo can be great if he switches trainers and adds some dimensions to his game. He is very comfortable boxing off the back foot and countering. He isn't very effective on the inside or cutting off the ring. If guys like Benton, Bouie Fisher...etc., were still around, they would be perfect for getting him where he needs to be. Nacho could be the guy also, but I don't think Canelo will switch trainers. In summary: the loss doesn't hurt his chances to be an ATG, his deficiencies that have been showcased in his less than stellar performances and his refusal to address those deficiencies will prevent him.

Unless he gets a rematch and beats Floyd, he will always be that second best guy that lost to Mayweather.

He should have waited for that fight vs. Mayweather.

Mayweather is looking weaker and weaker. The hits he took against Maidana in the two fights are telling... he looked worse after the second fights and took less hits than he did after the first fight, where he took more hits and the hits is what prompted a rematch.

Floyd can't retire too soon. One day it catches up- for him, let's hope he gets his two fights and wins before it really shows.

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

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Originally Posted by erics44

marquez be considered an ATG?

at his peak he lost every second of every round to floyd

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Haha! That is funny. JMM was coming up and Floyd didn't even make the contracted and agreed upon weight. That isn't a hit on JMM at all, and I would argue that JMM fought much tougher competition than Floyd did and provided much more excitement. I rank Floyd higher, but JMM is an ATG and definitely a HOF fighter.

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i think he is , i also think that suggesting alcerez cant be coz he lost to floyd is a bit daft

and in any case, being an all time great isnt only about how good you were, there are many other factors

someone like ron lyle will always be remembered and could very well be considered an all time great because of that and thats just because Ali talked about him

He got beaten by the greatest boxer of this generation.

Why can he never be great, when a guy like Roberto Duran who was outclassed, KTFO, quit in the middle of a title fight, ect is considered one of the p4p greatest to ever live?

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

Canelo can be great if he switches trainers and adds some dimensions to his game. He is very comfortable boxing off the back foot and countering. He isn't very effective on the inside or cutting off the ring. If guys like Benton, Bouie Fisher...etc., were still around, they would be perfect for getting him where he needs to be. Nacho could be the guy also, but I don't think Canelo will switch trainers. In summary: the loss doesn't hurt his chances to be an ATG, his deficiencies that have been showcased in his less than stellar performances and his refusal to address those deficiencies will prevent him.

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This is basically what I think. The loss doesn't matter in the ATG debate. If canelo went on to be super dominant from now on, he could be great but he won't be because he just isn't that great of a fighter. I think that he will end up having a good career but definitely not a career which will consider him to be an ATG.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

He got beaten by the greatest boxer of this generation.

Why can he never be great, when a guy like Roberto Duran who was outclassed, KTFO, quit in the middle of a title fight, ect is considered one of the p4p greatest to ever live?

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Agreed, getting beat by the best does not automatically lower expectations, he has a long career ahead.

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

He got beaten by the greatest boxer of this generation.

Why can he never be great, when a guy like Roberto Duran who was outclassed, KTFO, quit in the middle of a title fight, ect is considered one of the p4p greatest to ever live?

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Agreed, getting beat by the best does not automatically lower expectations, he has a long career ahead.

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To be fair, Duran could be considered an ATG on the strength of his career before he went up the weights and mixed it with Hagler, Hearns & Leonard.

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

He got beaten by the greatest boxer of this generation.

Why can he never be great, when a guy like Roberto Duran who was outclassed, KTFO, quit in the middle of a title fight, ect is considered one of the p4p greatest to ever live?

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Agreed, getting beat by the best does not automatically lower expectations, he has a long career ahead.

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To be fair, Duran could be considered an ATG on the strength of his career before he went up the weights and mixed it with Hagler, Hearns & Leonard.

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Do not listen to Beanflicker he thinks Floyd would beat Duran at lightweight. :)

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Originally Posted by Master

Do not listen to Beanflicker he thinks Floyd would beat Duran at lightweight. :)

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Yeah don't listen to me, I have the stupid habit of actually watching/analyzing boxing and forming my own opinions.

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

He got beaten by the greatest boxer of this generation.

Why can he never be great, when a guy like Roberto Duran who was outclassed, KTFO, quit in the middle of a title fight, ect is considered one of the p4p greatest to ever live?

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Agreed, getting beat by the best does not automatically lower expectations, he has a long career ahead.

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To be fair, Duran could be considered an ATG on the strength of his career before he went up the weights and mixed it with Hagler, Hearns & Leonard.

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Don't get me wrong, I never said that to in any way diminish Duran, who is one of my favorite fighters of all time. I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of writing off modern fighters with the first loss, when every past great has faltered at some point and gets a pass.

Roberto is an ATG even for all his shortcomings, and Canelo can become one too, depending on how the rest of his career plays out.

Also, if we want to get technical and call Duran an ATG based solely on his LW career, who did he beat at LW to make him an all time great? I ask because every day I come here I see someone saying Floyd isn't an ATG because his competition has been mediocre. Was Duran's competition at LW better than Floyd's career I wonder?

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

He got beaten by the greatest boxer of this generation.

Why can he never be great, when a guy like Roberto Duran who was outclassed, KTFO, quit in the middle of a title fight, ect is considered one of the p4p greatest to ever live?

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Duran firstly had the disadvantage of being considered the smaller guy - Canelo is bigger - but in fairness taking that point out - Duran beat Leonard - and did lose twice but he did beat him - he showed he was good enough - Canelo won't ever prove that - he will never get the rematch etc

Also Lara and Trout both pushed him to his very limits - I actually rate both highly but no where near greatness - I don't see Canelo improving hugely in the coming couple of years either

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Master

Do not listen to Beanflicker he thinks Floyd would beat Duran at lightweight. :)

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Yeah don't listen to me, I have the stupid habit of actually watching/analyzing boxing and forming my own opinions.

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Yes and being wrong. :)

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

Duran firstly had the disadvantage of being considered the smaller guy - Canelo is bigger - but in fairness taking that point out - Duran beat Leonard - and did lose twice but he did beat him - he showed he was good enough - Canelo won't ever prove that - he will never get the rematch etc

Also Lara and Trout both pushed him to his very limits - I actually rate both highly but no where near greatness - I don't see Canelo improving hugely in the coming couple of years either

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Duran had a great career and was p4p one of the best ever but he had a lot of faults too, and as good as he was he quit in a prizefight because he had a tummy ache and he got blown out by one of his peers. I think those losses were much more embarrassing than losing by UD to Floyd Mayweather.

I'm not saying Canelo is going to be an ATG, I'm saying let's wait until he's finished his career to make that decision. In no way does losing to a guy of Mayweather's caliber DQ you from becoming an ATG. The kid is 24.

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Originally Posted by Master

Yes and being wrong. :)

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Floyd would eat Duran alive. Absolute poison for Duran.

If you think Duran beats PBF, the best thing I can say to you is don't ever bet on boxing.

Now if you wanna talk Hearns or Leonard vs. Floyd, I'm all ears. But Duran? You're insane.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Now if you wanna talk Hearns or Leonard vs. Floyd, I'm all ears. But Duran? You're insane.

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At lightweight you are insane but welterweight you may have a case.

I feel like the welter Duran who beat Leonard beats Floyd. I feel like Duran beats Floyd at any weight 147 and below. I base that off of the success Castillo, Maidana and Hatton (at times) had vs Floyd. Jesus Chavez also roughed Floyd up and made things difficult. What many will point to, and it is a valid point, is that Floyd won those fights. What I will point out is that, from everything I've seen, those guys weren't in or even near Durans class of fighter.