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With all the talk about Floyd being or not being... I thought why not think of TBEs in other sports. They don't have to be individual sports, either. For example, football may bring a spirited discussion, between the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo, Lionel Messi, Pelé, Maradona, and others. In any case, I'll throw a couple out there for discussion... agreement or otherwise.
Tennis TBE - Roger Federer
Golf TBE - Jack Nicklaus
Back up your choices (unlike I did). ;D
Teddy Ballgame Williams. Last player to break .400 hitting .406 had incredible stats despite several seasons off serving as a combat pilot in WW 2 and Korea. The splendid splinter, the kid, there goes the greatest hitter to ever live.
I agree with Titofans 2 nominations.
How about
Gareth Edwards - rugby union
Halle Gebresellasie - distance running
Usain Bolt - sprinting
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Originally Posted by walrus
Ok good. But you have to consider fielding. I'd counter with Willie "Say Hey" Mays. Excellent hitter, fielder, baserunner.... hit for average... hit for power (660 career HRs). I'd mention Clemente in there... but I'd be biased on that one.
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Originally Posted by X
Not too familiar with the first two... but there's no denying Bolt's place as TBE in sprinting. He's shattered both the 100 and the 200 meter records... and if anyone is built for sprinting it's Bolt. I've watched him run and sometimes wonder if he's actually got another gear he hasn't shown us yet.
Ted gave up six seasons to serve his country most of them in his prime years and still had HOF numbers. It was an incredible feat. Something Floyd didn't do.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by walrus
Ok good. But you have to consider fielding. I'd counter with Willie "Say Hey" Mays. Excellent hitter, fielder, baserunner.... hit for average... hit for power (660 career HRs). I'd mention Clemente in there... but I'd be biased on that one.
Wayne Gretzky hockey
Pele soccer
Michael Jordan basketball
Do I really have to back it up?
He also stole bases in 4 different decades I believeQuote:
Originally Posted by walrus
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Originally Posted by walrusTed gave up six seasons to serve his country most of them in his prime years and still had HOF numbers. It was an incredible feat. Something Floyd didn't do.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by walrus
Ok good. But you have to consider fielding. I'd counter with Willie "Say Hey" Mays. Excellent hitter, fielder, baserunner.... hit for average... hit for power (660 career HRs). I'd mention Clemente in there... but I'd be biased on that one.
That IS pretty amazing. Mays was in the Army for about 2 years, so he didn't miss that much. However, he is widely considered the best 5-tool player that ever lived. Again, I would put Clemente in there, but Clemente didn't have the power batting numbers that Mays did.
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Originally Posted by El Kabong
Gretzky no backup required.
Pele might get some argument from Messi fans. You might need backup info.
Personally, I agree with you.
Jordan, again.... I agree with you.
Lebron is gonna make a serious case for this position in a couple of years, however.
I am not sure about federer as the best ever despite his amazing amount of wins, the problem I have with him is head to head I think nadal had the better of him and without nadals injuries I think he would be ahead or at least very very close to federer in the grand slam count, maybe I am remembering wrong but I don't remember federer having too much success against a fit nadal.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
as for others, I don't really know too many other sports that well..
for football/soccer, I am going with messi, the guy is excellent and has kept it up for a lot of years, cristiano ronaldo is superb too but I think messis skills as the superior playmaker put him above cronaldo.... I have only watched highlight videos of other greats like maradona, pele and beckenbauer so I can't really compare them :S
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Originally Posted by palmerqI am not sure about federer as the best ever despite his amazing amount of wins, the problem I have with him is head to head I think nadal had the better of him and without nadals injuries I think he would be ahead or at least very very close to federer in the grand slam count, maybe I am remembering wrong but I don't remember federer having too much success against a fit nadal.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
as for others, I don't really know too many other sports that well..
for football/soccer, I am going with messi, the guy is excellent and has kept it up for a lot of years, cristiano ronaldo is superb too but I think messis skills as the superior playmaker put him above cronaldo.... I have only watched highlight videos of other greats like maradona, pele and beckenbauer so I can't really compare them :S
Good point on Federer, palmerq. Right now he's tied for 2nd on the career majors list with 14 (tied with Sampras). He's certainly got the upper hand on Federer in their head-to-head meetings. The thing about Nadal is that 9 of his 14 majors are in the French Open, a surface some players specialize in... while others don't play it so well. But as you well point out, Nadal's injuries may have kept him from being even higher on the majors list. You can certainly make a case for Nadal, although to me he's too much of a specialist.
Boxing - Floyd
Hockey - Wayne
Golf - Tiger
Baseball - Barry Bonds
Basketball - Wilt the Stilt
MMA - Jon Jones
Skateboarding - Tony Hawk
Downhill Skiing - Sonny Bono
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Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Good...... controversial picks. ;D
I'm not an expert on a lot of those but Tiger dominated like no one else and they actually had to fuck around with golf courses and "Tiger-proof" them to help the other golfers compete with him, and it didn't work.
Barry Bonds done slammed more home runs than anyone. I know someone is going to bring up Babe Ruth (fat drunk) but if you played baseball during a time when blacks weren't allowed to play, IMO you are DQ'd from being considered #1.
Wilt was the fucking boss, they had to change a rule because of him.
Yes well Barry Bonds used steroids and HGH.
By TBE do we mean an exceptional athlete who avoids opponents in their prime, picks and chooses his opponents, and braggishly declares his greatness? No, there is only one TBE and that is Floyd Mayweather.
Ok here’s a list that I’ve done quickly. Note I know virtually nothing about some of these sports, marked with a *, so have given my reasons why in brackets for those
Football – Lionel Messi
Snooker – Ronnie O’Sullivan
Darts – Phil Taylor
Boxing – Ali
*NHL – Jeremy Roenick (was unstoppable in NHL 94 on the Mega Drive)
*NBA – Michael Jordan (cos everyone else said)
*NFL – Joe Montana (no idea what he did but, as I’ve only ever heard of about six NFL players ever, he was referenced in films and all as the best so that’s good enough for me)
*MLB – The Babe (as a Canadian chap I got chatting to in a bar (not that kind of bar by the way) a few years ago put it ‘whereas modern players do it on steroids the Babe did it on hot dogs and beer’)
*Karate – Chuck Norris (no explanation required)
Cricket – Who cares !
Tennis – Federer
Golf – Tiger Woods (don’t like the bloke but would’ve broken Nicklaus record by now if not for injuries and personal issues)
*Squash – Jahangir \ Jansher Khan (same bloke ?)
Bowls – Tony Allcock \ David Bryant tied first (did anyone else ever play this sport ?)
Swimming – Johnny Weissmuller \ Eric Moussambani
Sprinting – Bolt
Middle Distance – Seb Coe
Ski Jumping – Eddie Edwards
Course fishing - Bob Nudd
Thai Skiing - Vanessa Mae
Soccer's a difficult one what about Zidane?
Football is difficult too because of the different positions and expectations those positions carry.
And if we're ignoring injuries and circumstances then Ben Hogan was the best golfer.
Ben Hogan Ben Hogan ? Let me tell you something. Ben Hogan was good . But next to Tiger Woods Ben Hogain ain't shit !Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
So did everyone else he played against though.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Football... JIM BROWN!!!
He was in a car crash which almost killed him....Tiger Woods uses advanced technology, ben Hogan used a WOODEN driver!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark TKOBen Hogan Ben Hogan ? Let me tell you something. Ben Hogan was good . But next to Tiger Woods Ben Hogain ain't shit !Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
You assumeQuote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerSo did everyone else he played against though.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Lawrence Taylor, Bo Jackson, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Dick Butkus, Ray Neitschke, Deacon Jones, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Johnny Unitas, Ronnie Lott, Reggie White...it's not cut and dry that Jim Brown was even the best running back ever because there are different kinds of running backs now. What about Red Grange or Jim Thorpe? Jim Thorpe was one of the most amazing athletes of all time!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
TYRUS RAYMOND COBB ....one of the greatest players ever to play baseball. Not a nice guy by any stretch but it's understandable given how he was brought up and having seen his father shot by his mother's lover or some such craziness it's not a surprise he was a bitter asshole.
Jimmie Foxx, Ol' Double X was a phenomenal hitter!
Cy Young, Christy Matthewson, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Bob Feller, Bob Gibson, Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Sadaharu Oh, Ichiro, Honus Wagner, Willie Mays, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Rickey Henderson, Jackie Robinson, Ozzie Smith, Carlton Fisk, Carl Yastremski, Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, Bo Jackson(again).....we could go on forever.
All those top guys were juiced, the pitchers, the batters, so it's just par for the course.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I don't look at steroids as any more of an advantage than not having to play against black athletes.
To say you played baseball when blacks weren't allowed to play is like saying you hit the ball off a tee. It's disgraceful.
Not really and I'll explain why, did the Negro Leagues have Mexicans and Dominicans and Cubans playing? Did Japanese players play back then? Fucking hell Cuba STILL doesn't allow their best players to play in the MLB they have to fucking defect! And who is to say that in 30-40 years will India and/or China be supplying better baseball players? Guys that will never have played against Babe Ruth et al.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerAll those top guys were juiced, the pitchers, the batters, so it's just par for the course.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I don't look at steroids as any more of an advantage than not having to play against black athletes.
To say you played baseball when blacks weren't allowed to play is like saying you hit the ball off a tee. It's disgraceful.
Disgraceful my ass, it is what it is. It's like in soccer, you have different leagues and guys in the Dutch league score waaaaaaay more goals than English Leagues or Spanish Leagues or Italian or French...are they better worse the same? It's up to people to decide. Sadaharu Oh has WAAAAAAAAAY more homeruns than Barry Bonds...he only played in Japan, you take it for what it is
Barry Bonds 762 homeruns...Sadaharu Oh 868 homeruns (no roids either)
No doubt Cobb was great. Gwynn had a chance at hitting four hundred. It is hard to pick TBE but I think it's safe to say Teddy Ballgame was the greatest hitter.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Yeah but you know full well there's a big difference between not having black athletes and not having Asian or Latino athletes. In terms of providing pure athletic ability, the black race is THE powerhouse.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
It's like having a world hockey tournament and leaving out Canada and Russia. Sure, there are great players from America, Sweden, Finland, ect, but could the winner of that tournament truly be considered the greatest hockey nation? :roll eyes:
Barry Bonds competed at a time when ANYBODY could play and it truly was the best of the best. Everybody worth a fuck was juicing or taking something, and he whipped ass. Babe Ruth was the best of his time, not the best of all time.
I LOVE these discussions. ;D
A little known stat about Tiger Woods vs. Jack Nicklaus:
Ok, so Jack has 18 major tournament wins vs. Tiger's 14.
Howeverrrrrr.......
Jack also finished 2nd a whopping total of 19 times in major tournaments.
Greg Norman is 2nd on that list of 2nd place finishes with 8.
Tiger has six 2nd place finishes in major tournaments.
Jack also had to battle some other greats in their own right throughout his career.
Palmer, Watson, Player, Trevino, Ballesteros... and a host of other HOF'ers.
Woods had Mickelson and a bunch of no-names to contend with.
It's only recently that players of the caliber of Rory McIlroy have risen to challenge for the top spot.
Finally... there's the man himself.
Jack conducted himself with class... in and out of the golf course.
Tiger is a self-absorbed, obnoxious, sore loser which is why people love Mickelson more.
In summary...... Tiger isn't fit to carry the Golden Bear's jock.
#1: No, no that's not true and I'll prove it to you this way. You get 1-9 the BEST current black baseball players and I'll supply 1-9 Japanese, 1-9 Cuban, 1-9 Dominican, and 1-9 Mexican current players and we'll see who has the better team. Fuck it, we could go ALL TIME in that shit and I'll bet the nations rather than the race wins out.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerYeah but you know full well there's a big difference between not having black athletes and not having Asian or Latino athletes. In terms of providing pure athletic ability, the black race is THE powerhouse.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
It's like having a world hockey tournament and leaving out Canada and Russia. Sure, there are great players from America, Sweden, Finland, ect, but could the winner of that tournament truly be considered the greatest hockey nation? :roll eyes:
Barry Bonds competed at a time when ANYBODY could play and it truly was the best of the best. Everybody worth a fuck was juicing or taking something, and he whipped ass. Babe Ruth was the best of his time, not the best of all time.
#2 Barry Bonds WOULD HAVE been great even if he didn't take steroids and with that I am willing to agree on....best all time? best ever? NO FUCKING WAY!
Hard to argue against Don Bradman for TBE batsman in cricket.
His career average was 99.94. I think the next best one of all time is 60
Who cares who the best golfer was, the game stinks, may as well list the greatest lawn bowler of all time.
How about Gary Kasparov in chess?
I like Federer as TBE in tennis, but PalmerQ had a good point about Nadal. I think it's really hard to argue it isn't one of them either way.
Usain Bolt is about the most clear cut mentioned so far, because we know without any doubt nobody has ever been faster than him. Track and field events are of course much easier to point out the best, as there is no grey area whatsoever.
Javier Sotomayor broke the record for mens high jump in 1992 and it still stands, that's pretty incredible when you think about how athletes generally get better.
I've never followed any team sports closely enough to have an informed opinion in truth, but Steve Nash grew up down the street from where I lived, so he's my pick for the best NBA player ever;D
College basketball player Pistol Pete....EASILY best ever, 44.2 points PER GAME......BEFORE THE 3 POINT LINE!
The Cuban's and Dominican's are black. They have the same African genes that African-Americans do. Generally, blacks are bigger, stronger, and faster than all other races. When's the last time you saw a white, Asian, or Latino guy (or girl) win gold at the 100m dash? Blacks either dominate or are a strong force in every sport they care to participate in. There'd be a lot of current NHLers out of work or in the minor leagues if blacks played hockey in as large numbers as they do other sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
And this athletic superiority isn't something that popped up over the last 30 years, this goes way way back. So if you were a guy who didn't have to compete against black athletes in a game that relies on athleticism, then no, I don't think you have any claim to be #1 because you were competing in a relatively shallow pool. Imagine if we took all the black people out of the NFL, MLB and (gasp) the NBA. What a fucking joke that would be.
When's the last time you saw a black "strongest man in the world" eh Mr. Bigger Faster Stronger? There are like 5 black people in the whole of baseball and CC Sabathia is 3 of thoseQuote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerThe Cuban's and Dominican's are black. They have the same African genes that African-Americans do. Generally, blacks are bigger, stronger, and faster than all other races. When's the last time you saw a white, Asian, or Latino guy (or girl) win gold at the 100m dash? Blacks either dominate or are a strong force in every sport they care to participate in. There'd be a lot of current NHLers out of work or in the minor leagues if blacks played hockey in as large numbers as they do other sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
And this athletic superiority isn't something that popped up over the last 30 years, this goes way way back. So if you were a guy who didn't have to compete against black athletes in a game that relies on athleticism, then no, I don't think you have any claim to be #1 because you were competing in a relatively shallow pool. Imagine if we took all the black people out of the NFL, MLB and (gasp) the NBA. What a fucking joke that would be.
I don't really know shit about the history of golf, I just figured Tiger was the go-to answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan