Let's settle this. People say that Floyd struggles against southpaws. But does he really?
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Let's settle this. People say that Floyd struggles against southpaws. But does he really?
He struggled with Zab at first and Demarcus Corley had a couple of decent moments in their fight. Floyd seems to struggle most with guys like Castillo and Maidana, who muscle him to the ropes and just keep throwing. Floyd is great at adapting though and performed much better in both rematches.Quote:
Originally Posted by VG_Addict
Corley caught him but even in the round he got caught Floyd won the round easily if memory serves me.
Judah won a couple early rounds
Pac won a couple of rounds
Early in his career he had some tight rounds against some lefty
Depends on how to qualify "struggle". I don't think he has lost 12 rounds to all his southpaw opponents combined so no, I don't think he struggles. Just terms are used differently when applied to Floyd.
Offensively, I think there is a statistic out there that generally he has a higher connect percentage against southpaws so it's impossible to say he struggles but defensively, his shoulder roll had been less effective so he has had to adapt his style in different ways. I actually think that technically he has improved against southpaws.
Floyd does struggle with southpaws but normally adjusts and wins the later rounds.
Floyd does struggle with southpaws but normally adjusts and wins the later rounds.
If Pernell was around he would have been serious trouble for Floyd.
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I would like to hear how you define struggle. Because he hasn't had one competitive fight against a southpaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Emanuel Pacquiao was as easy a fight as any fight short of Gatti
Guerrero was almost as easy as Emanuel
Ortiz was a wipeout
Judah was completely onesided after the early rounds
Sharmba was a wipeout
Corley was pure domination
Sanders he won every round
Rounds 52-10, doesn't seem like struggling.
To be fair, none of those fighters were anywhere near Pernells level. Anyone who ever fought Sweet Pea struggled, even when he was well past his prime. He and Floyd are two of the greatest defensive specialists ever, and would have been about as even a match up as you could find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonI would like to hear how you define struggle. Because he hasn't had one competitive fight against a southpaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Emanuel Pacquiao was as easy a fight as any fight short of Gatti
Guerrero was almost as easy as Emanuel
Ortiz was a wipeout
Judah was completely onesided after the early rounds
Sharmba was a wipeout
Corley was pure domination
Sanders he won every round
Rounds 52-10, doesn't seem like struggling.
Judah knocked Floyd down and Corley wobbled Floyd.
I think he just struggles against quality opposition. Saying southpaws "rocked him" or "gave him trouble" may be true but so did the orthodox fighters. I don't think it has anything to do with stance but more so fighting style. Cotto and Maidana both gave him trouble in recent years, more than any southpaw, and maidana and mosely both rocked him harder than any southpaw has. I think his issue comes with boxers that aren't conventional. WHen he fights awkward fighters he runs into a bit of an adjustment period. On the other hand, when he fights pure boxers (like Canelo) he cruises to a victory.
IMO, Mosley rocked him the hardest (even though he didn't go down) but I place Zab's unscored knockdown as 2nd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4life
Mayweather seemed to be fighting a more fan friendly style fight against Cotto. That's how I saw it, anyways
Totally agree. Floyd wanted to stop Cotto and took chances he did not against other fighters.Quote:
Originally Posted by frozensolid-702IMO, Mosley rocked him the hardest (even though he didn't go down) but I place Zab's unscored knockdown as 2nd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4life
Mayweather seemed to be fighting a more fan friendly style fight against Cotto. That's how I saw it, anyways
He was more offensive because he was fighting a guy who was not much stronger than him, bigger than him and is relatively easy to hit. The only thing Cotto had going for him was his timing and his jab, which separated his effort from say Guerrero.
There are videos out there, mostly by Wilson Kayden, that highlights Floyd's adjustments against southpaws.
And Cotto nearly won that fight. Had the fight taken place pre-Margarito then maybe Miguel could have done something. But there were so many things that happened after the Margarito fight that changed Cotto. I thought he had a good chance and he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTotally agree. Floyd wanted to stop Cotto and took chances he did not against other fighters.Quote:
Originally Posted by frozensolid-702IMO, Mosley rocked him the hardest (even though he didn't go down) but I place Zab's unscored knockdown as 2nd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4life
Mayweather seemed to be fighting a more fan friendly style fight against Cotto. That's how I saw it, anyways
De la Hoya also gave Floyd hell but as an orthodox fighter.
We also all have to wonder about Paul Williams....to an extent seeing how he moved up in weight and got sparked out very badly but had Floyd fought him at 147 who knows what would have happened? Would Williams be outboxed to the point where he looked amateurish or would Williams' pressure and stamina eventually get to Floyd? Obviously everyone is just going to assume Floyd wins easy seeing how Floyd has beaten everyone else with relative ease....but 6'1 and a 79" reach is pretty tough for a welterweight to have to deal with.
True enough for the most part but if only Williams fought like Hearns. I've never seen anyone not take advantage of his natural attributes like Paul did. He always fought like he was 5 feet tall with a Marciano reach. I doubt he turns into Hearns of Ezzard Charles for one fight but who knows as you point out.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongAnd Cotto nearly won that fight. Had the fight taken place pre-Margarito then maybe Miguel could have done something. But there were so many things that happened after the Margarito fight that changed Cotto. I thought he had a good chance and he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTotally agree. Floyd wanted to stop Cotto and took chances he did not against other fighters.Quote:
Originally Posted by frozensolid-702IMO, Mosley rocked him the hardest (even though he didn't go down) but I place Zab's unscored knockdown as 2nd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4life
Mayweather seemed to be fighting a more fan friendly style fight against Cotto. That's how I saw it, anyways
De la Hoya also gave Floyd hell but as an orthodox fighter.
We also all have to wonder about Paul Williams....to an extent seeing how he moved up in weight and got sparked out very badly but had Floyd fought him at 147 who knows what would have happened? Would Williams be outboxed to the point where he looked amateurish or would Williams' pressure and stamina eventually get to Floyd? Obviously everyone is just going to assume Floyd wins easy seeing how Floyd has beaten everyone else with relative ease....but 6'1 and a 79" reach is pretty tough for a welterweight to have to deal with.
I think Floyd is at least troubled by left handers because of his own style. His entire operation revolves around his left shoulder. His chances of getting caught with a straight left is greater then a straight right. The style is really developed around facing right hand fighters. The entire Mayweather clan dislike southpaws and have said as much on many occasions. Judah and Chop chop actually had better luck then Manny did as crazy as that sounds. The did because they were more fluid and less rinse and repeat. Manny has been doing the same thing over and over and over again his entire career. He had success with it because he was relentless and just much quicker then everyone else.
Floyd would have done the same thing 5 years ago when they were both still in their prime as he did with both out of their prime.
I think Pernell troubling Floyd would have more to do with him being really fucking good rather than being a southpaw, that and having a jab. Most don't recognize why Manny would never trouble Floyd, no jab. It's the key to opening the shoulder roll up as much or more than the different angle the straight left comes from.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodTo be fair, none of those fighters were anywhere near Pernells level. Anyone who ever fought Sweet Pea struggled, even when he was well past his prime. He and Floyd are two of the greatest defensive specialists ever, and would have been about as even a match up as you could find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonI would like to hear how you define struggle. Because he hasn't had one competitive fight against a southpaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Emanuel Pacquiao was as easy a fight as any fight short of Gatti
Guerrero was almost as easy as Emanuel
Ortiz was a wipeout
Judah was completely onesided after the early rounds
Sharmba was a wipeout
Corley was pure domination
Sanders he won every round
Rounds 52-10, doesn't seem like struggling.
We have years of evidence Emanuel is not a nuanced fighter. Like most offensive juggernauts, they get so used to what they do working that when it isn't working they are clueless. Fans want to say "just open up" but when you are hitting air and getting punched in the face you think. If you aren't a thinker thinking is the last thing you want to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitTrue enough for the most part but if only Williams fought like Hearns. I've never seen anyone not take advantage of his natural attributes like Paul did. He always fought like he was 5 feet tall with a Marciano reach. I doubt he turns into Hearns of Ezzard Charles for one fight but who knows as you point out.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongAnd Cotto nearly won that fight. Had the fight taken place pre-Margarito then maybe Miguel could have done something. But there were so many things that happened after the Margarito fight that changed Cotto. I thought he had a good chance and he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTotally agree. Floyd wanted to stop Cotto and took chances he did not against other fighters.Quote:
Originally Posted by frozensolid-702IMO, Mosley rocked him the hardest (even though he didn't go down) but I place Zab's unscored knockdown as 2nd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4life
Mayweather seemed to be fighting a more fan friendly style fight against Cotto. That's how I saw it, anyways
De la Hoya also gave Floyd hell but as an orthodox fighter.
We also all have to wonder about Paul Williams....to an extent seeing how he moved up in weight and got sparked out very badly but had Floyd fought him at 147 who knows what would have happened? Would Williams be outboxed to the point where he looked amateurish or would Williams' pressure and stamina eventually get to Floyd? Obviously everyone is just going to assume Floyd wins easy seeing how Floyd has beaten everyone else with relative ease....but 6'1 and a 79" reach is pretty tough for a welterweight to have to deal with.
I think Floyd is at least troubled by left handers because of his own style. His entire operation revolves around his left shoulder. His chances of getting caught with a straight left is greater then a straight right. The style is really developed around facing right hand fighters. The entire Mayweather clan dislike southpaws and have said as much on many occasions. Judah and Chop chop actually had better luck then Manny did as crazy as that sounds. The did because they were more fluid and less rinse and repeat. Manny has been doing the same thing over and over and over again his entire career. He had success with it because he was relentless and just much quicker then everyone else.
Floyd would have done the same thing 5 years ago when they were both still in their prime as he did with both out of their prime.
So 15 seconds of struggles in 7 fights constitutes struggling in your mind. Appreciate the clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
How many times have you seen Floyd struggle in his whole career?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonSo 15 seconds of struggles in 7 fights constitutes struggling in your mind. Appreciate the clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
15 seconds is a long time because he was seriously hurt in those seconds. Other than Shane, that is the only time he was wobbled and out of control.
I agree with pretty much everything you posted (great post!), but wanted to bring up up Paul Williams' fight vs (past his prime) Winky Wright. In that fight Paul used his height and reach very well, fought disciplined, and forced Winky out of position by making lunge and try to counter from an uncomfortable distance/position. Floyd would have been faster than Winky and used angles/jab to the body more, and would've been interesting to see if that could've overcome Paul's height and reach advantages mixed with a southpaw style.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitTrue enough for the most part but if only Williams fought like Hearns. I've never seen anyone not take advantage of his natural attributes like Paul did. He always fought like he was 5 feet tall with a Marciano reach. I doubt he turns into Hearns of Ezzard Charles for one fight but who knows as you point out.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongAnd Cotto nearly won that fight. Had the fight taken place pre-Margarito then maybe Miguel could have done something. But there were so many things that happened after the Margarito fight that changed Cotto. I thought he had a good chance and he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTotally agree. Floyd wanted to stop Cotto and took chances he did not against other fighters.Quote:
Originally Posted by frozensolid-702IMO, Mosley rocked him the hardest (even though he didn't go down) but I place Zab's unscored knockdown as 2nd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4life
Mayweather seemed to be fighting a more fan friendly style fight against Cotto. That's how I saw it, anyways
De la Hoya also gave Floyd hell but as an orthodox fighter.
We also all have to wonder about Paul Williams....to an extent seeing how he moved up in weight and got sparked out very badly but had Floyd fought him at 147 who knows what would have happened? Would Williams be outboxed to the point where he looked amateurish or would Williams' pressure and stamina eventually get to Floyd? Obviously everyone is just going to assume Floyd wins easy seeing how Floyd has beaten everyone else with relative ease....but 6'1 and a 79" reach is pretty tough for a welterweight to have to deal with.
I think Floyd is at least troubled by left handers because of his own style. His entire operation revolves around his left shoulder. His chances of getting caught with a straight left is greater then a straight right. The style is really developed around facing right hand fighters. The entire Mayweather clan dislike southpaws and have said as much on many occasions. Judah and Chop chop actually had better luck then Manny did as crazy as that sounds. The did because they were more fluid and less rinse and repeat. Manny has been doing the same thing over and over and over again his entire career. He had success with it because he was relentless and just much quicker then everyone else.
Floyd would have done the same thing 5 years ago when they were both still in their prime as he did with both out of their prime.
I'd say he had many minutes of struggles against Augustus. More struggles against Shane, more against Cotto, more against Maidana, more against Castillo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterHow many times have you seen Floyd struggle in his whole career?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonSo 15 seconds of struggles in 7 fights constitutes struggling in your mind. Appreciate the clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
15 seconds is a long time because he was seriously hurt in those seconds. Other than Shane, that is the only time he was wobbled and out of control.
The Judah fight he did touch his glove down but it didn't seem like he was hurt but rather caught off guard/off balance with a good shot.
But, like I said I appreciate the clarification. Struggles is vague, it's for the eye of the beholder. Some would say he struggled against Delahoya. My perspective is that Delahoya took rounds with ineffective aggression. I can't remember Delahoya landing one significant punch in the fight. The closest thing to a significant punch I would consider the left hook in the last seconds of the 12th where Floyd decided to exchange for amusement. If you don't land any significant punches that doesn't seem like struggles to me, but he was stealing rounds so someone else could call it struggles. To each their own.
For me to consider a fighter struggling I have to begin questioning if they will win or lose. Maidana I, Castillo I and the 2nd round versus Mosley are the occasions where I questioned if Floyd would win or not.
From memory, I recall Mayweather choosing to 'dog it out' a bit with Corely. I got the impression that this was due to Corley's left hand trajectory negating his defences a bit. I'm sure he was badly hurt in that fight a couple of times. (I've only seen the fight in it's entirety once and that was when I was stoned and 'speed-watching' the fight on YouTube, just before the Mosley fight - that was a wired night for me :rolleyes: ). I put that down to relative inexperience and have since noted that he has become more astute with southpaws than before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonI'd say he had many minutes of struggles against Augustus. More struggles against Shane, more against Cotto, more against Maidana, more against Castillo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterHow many times have you seen Floyd struggle in his whole career?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonSo 15 seconds of struggles in 7 fights constitutes struggling in your mind. Appreciate the clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
15 seconds is a long time because he was seriously hurt in those seconds. Other than Shane, that is the only time he was wobbled and out of control.
The Judah fight he did touch his glove down but it didn't seem like he was hurt but rather caught off guard/off balance with a good shot.
But, like I said I appreciate the clarification. Struggles is vague, it's for the eye of the beholder. Some would say he struggled against Delahoya. My perspective is that Delahoya took rounds with ineffective aggression. I can't remember Delahoya landing one significant punch in the fight. The closest thing to a significant punch I would consider the left hook in the last seconds of the 12th where Floyd decided to exchange for amusement. If you don't land any significant punches that doesn't seem like struggles to me, but he was stealing rounds so someone else could call it struggles. To each their own.
For me to consider a fighter struggling I have to begin questioning if they will win or lose. Maidana I, Castillo I and the 2nd round versus Mosley are the occasions where I questioned if Floyd would win or not.
Just check this out - which is, in my mind, an extension/ continuation/ development of what when on in the Corley & Mitchell fights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lncx-J4VjHk
How Mayweather adjusts to the left hand of Judah is incredible but at the same time, I thought bending at the waist against someone like Pacquiao would leave him well and truly exposed but then I figured Manny would try to sell feints a lot more than he did.
I think Pacquiao has always been a bit one-dimensional.
And on the topic of Williams, he had a tendency to lunge. Floyd would exploit that.
I'm 50/50 on that theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by VG_Addict
True, he used to be a one-handed fighter - that's no longer the case.
Also true he doesn't have a reverse gear
I watched the Corley fight again a couple months back, it's a fun fight. I think any troubles he had came from being overly aggressive. You can hear between rounds Roger tells him to go get Corley then after beating on Corley but taking a few shots Roger says to back off for a few rounds and then we will try again to take him out. And Floyd does just as instructed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel BoogustusFrom memory, I recall Mayweather choosing to 'dog it out' a bit with Corely. I got the impression that this was due to Corley's left hand trajectory negating his defences a bit. I'm sure he was badly hurt in that fight a couple of times. (I've only seen the fight in it's entirety once and that was when I was stoned and 'speed-watching' the fight on YouTube, just before the Mosley fight - that was a wired night for me :rolleyes: ). I put that down to relative inexperience and have since noted that he has become more astute with southpaws than before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonI'd say he had many minutes of struggles against Augustus. More struggles against Shane, more against Cotto, more against Maidana, more against Castillo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterHow many times have you seen Floyd struggle in his whole career?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonSo 15 seconds of struggles in 7 fights constitutes struggling in your mind. Appreciate the clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
15 seconds is a long time because he was seriously hurt in those seconds. Other than Shane, that is the only time he was wobbled and out of control.
The Judah fight he did touch his glove down but it didn't seem like he was hurt but rather caught off guard/off balance with a good shot.
But, like I said I appreciate the clarification. Struggles is vague, it's for the eye of the beholder. Some would say he struggled against Delahoya. My perspective is that Delahoya took rounds with ineffective aggression. I can't remember Delahoya landing one significant punch in the fight. The closest thing to a significant punch I would consider the left hook in the last seconds of the 12th where Floyd decided to exchange for amusement. If you don't land any significant punches that doesn't seem like struggles to me, but he was stealing rounds so someone else could call it struggles. To each their own.
For me to consider a fighter struggling I have to begin questioning if they will win or lose. Maidana I, Castillo I and the 2nd round versus Mosley are the occasions where I questioned if Floyd would win or not.
Just check this out - which is, in my mind, an extension/ continuation/ development of what when on in the Corley & Mitchell fights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lncx-J4VjHk
How Mayweather adjusts to the left hand of Judah is incredible but at the same time, I thought bending at the waist against someone like Pacquiao would leave him well and truly exposed but then I figured Manny would try to sell feints a lot more than he did.
Good video. I like how he shows that Floyd doesn't have a problem with the straight left. The notion he simply can't deal with a straight left because of the shoulder roll is ludicrous and unfounded. If anything he has more trouble with the right hook from the southpaw stance. I'm 95% sure that is what Corley buzzed him with(I will go watch it again to be sure) and what Zab made him go down with.
I've heard many trainers say that the idea Floyd struggles with southpaws is a myth. I used to believe the myth until I went back and watched fights over after hearing yet another trainer say it simply wasn't true.
Maybe it's just me, but crazy as it sounds, I thought Hatton was a big problem for Floyd in the early rounds while watching it live. Obviously Floyd adjusted (as he always does) and got a wicked KO, but Hatton seemed pretty effective early on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonI'd say he had many minutes of struggles against Augustus. More struggles against Shane, more against Cotto, more against Maidana, more against Castillo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterHow many times have you seen Floyd struggle in his whole career?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonSo 15 seconds of struggles in 7 fights constitutes struggling in your mind. Appreciate the clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
15 seconds is a long time because he was seriously hurt in those seconds. Other than Shane, that is the only time he was wobbled and out of control.
The Judah fight he did touch his glove down but it didn't seem like he was hurt but rather caught off guard/off balance with a good shot.
But, like I said I appreciate the clarification. Struggles is vague, it's for the eye of the beholder. Some would say he struggled against Delahoya. My perspective is that Delahoya took rounds with ineffective aggression. I can't remember Delahoya landing one significant punch in the fight. The closest thing to a significant punch I would consider the left hook in the last seconds of the 12th where Floyd decided to exchange for amusement. If you don't land any significant punches that doesn't seem like struggles to me, but he was stealing rounds so someone else could call it struggles. To each their own.
For me to consider a fighter struggling I have to begin questioning if they will win or lose. Maidana I, Castillo I and the 2nd round versus Mosley are the occasions where I questioned if Floyd would win or not.