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Just want opinions on if Roy Jones fought Haye - both around their peak - it would have meant a cruiser match up as Haye would never make much lower
Jones clearly has the legacy etc that Haye wouldn't touch but I think it would have been an interesting fight given Haye's speed & power.
Now I know i'll get the "but haye struggled again Fragomini etc" - different fighter but I appreciate the point.
Whats the predictions? And how would you see the fight going
Roy UD12
Haye ko 2
Haye inside 3
Really depends who would feel the power shot first, if Roy intimidates him in first round like Ali did to Foreman, than I would bet on 12 UD, however, I feel Roy did not had that much power in HW obviously, so, in the end, I bet on Haye, because he is a way faster and better boxer than Ruiz
The problem is that it's ok saying "Close to their peaks", but RJJ's peak was nowhere near CW or HW, Whereas Maybe Haye's was.
All I can say is that the Best ever RJJ was better than the Best ever Haye.
Precisely!!!
Yup
Tough to say, Roy never fought as a cruiserweight anywhere near his best, Haye is definitely a much bigger guy, would have been interesting. I think James Toney would have eaten Hayes lunch, at cruiser or HW:cool:
Jones wouldn't even travel for a equally formidable and more realistic shot with same division Benn??? Don't get me wrong Jones had talent alone to catch Haye but Haye was the one to test himself and actually step up division wise. Even though it is taking a decade or something
Jones that beat Ruiz was his last great performance and i think he could survive 12 rounds but lose a lop sided decision against a bigger Haye. Only size make Haye the winner.
If Haye ever caught him its a KO.
If not Jones probably UD.
Roy near his peak is still a faster, smarter fighter than haye, who did more talking than fighting in his biggest fights.
Most of the times we've seen haye in the ring, he's been the faster, more mobile guy. Its how he got away with being so wide in his punches and in his stance. Still against the younger Klitschko, haye couldn't really catch him for all of his speed. He more or less spent the fight on outside, trying to stay off the center line and lunging occasionally (for which Klitschko easily got his big body out of the way). Klitschko never let haye set his feet.
Roy had a habit of intimidating his opponents early with speed and movement, sending them into a shell early physically while they were trying to solve the puzzle mentally. He had a talent for countering hookers and fought some big light heavys. Roy just controls the distance better and had better lateral movement.
I see this one as Haye getting burned by the counters for coming in wide, early on and spends the rest of the fight looking for a weakness while trying to feint Jones out of position, getting countered coming in half the time and trying to rabbit punch his way onto the score cards. It wont look like jones vs hall. But i definitely see haye losing interest after he's been caught by sneaky counters while lunging in.
Diddo.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Undisputed
Jones UD
I see Haye destroying Roy at cruiser. This fight would play out similar to Meldrick Taylor vs Terry Norris. Roy was slightly faster than Haye, but didn't have the strength or punch to keep David honest at that weight.
Ruiz was a slow, plodding joke of a fighter, whose style is completely opposite of the athletic Haye. Roy was the definition of athletic, but his punches had noticeably less affect at 175, and Roy would've had to rely on speed and movement to win at cruiser. Haye had fast feet and hands, and while Roy would've been slightly faster, it wasn't enough to keep Haye off balance and at a distance the whole night. David by early stoppage/blow out.
Roy Jones, at his peak wasn't near cruiser weight. So this is kind of a trick question.
A peak Roy hardly gets touched by Haye.
Also considering that Roy barely was even touched by faster guys at lower weights, that were harder to see coming, its a little hard for me to believe that the lunging, wide hooking, wide stanced haye is gonna catch him. Also id wager to say roy was more than slightly faster than haye (no offense to Mikeeod). I just think its relativity--its easier for haye to look faster against the crop of heavyweights he's faced (even discounting the 7 ft sloth, valuev) - it doesn't me he would look as fast fighting someone from a lower class whos known for his speed. I wouldn't use ruiz as a measuring stick.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
My arguments not based on speed as much as its based on style. With hayes kinetics and wide stance, roy would just be able to see him coming from a mile away. Klitchsko did. If haye refined his style, he'd have less tells... so to speak.
Yes it's silly for those reasons. I was sort of thinking if he had moved up to 200 instead of HW in 2003 to fight Ruiz, he would have beaten whatever version of Haye, who I think was overall a better fighter at HW incidentally. What was Hayes best performance at 200, Mormeck? I feel like he was a lot less durable himself at the weight, Roy would have still been able to hurt him or at the very least keep him honest.
Can definitely see your point, and never take offense to counter views/points, I actually prefer them (when they are backed up with insight, as yours was). In my opinion, while Roy was fast and could hit hard at 175, he had lost some in both departments compared to what he could do at 160/168. Roy was faster than pretty much any 175 pounder, but not infinitely faster like he was at the two other weights. He was caught by inferior fighters like Eric Harding, Montell Griffin, Lou del Valle, and Antonio Tarver.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_UndisputedAlso considering that Roy barely was even touched by faster guys at lower weights, that were harder to see coming, its a little hard for me to believe that the lunging, wide hooking, wide stanced haye is gonna catch him. Also id wager to say roy was more than slightly faster than haye (no offense to Mikeeod). I just think its relativity--its easier for haye to look faster against the crop of heavyweights he's faced (even discounting the 7 ft sloth, valuev) - it doesn't me he would look as fast fighting someone from a lower class whos known for his speed. I wouldn't use ruiz as a measuring stick.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
My arguments not based on speed as much as its based on style. With hayes kinetics and wide stance, roy would just be able to see him coming from a mile away. Klitchsko did. If haye refined his style, he'd have less tells... so to speak.
This is where I see him losing to Haye at 190. I just don't see Roy being able to out speed or discourage Haye as necessary for him to last the distance. I see Roy getting backed up to the ropes and taking a pounding until he gets stopped. Can see a case for Roy to counter with something that shakes and discourages David, allowing him to pot shot to a decision, but don't think that is the most likely scenario.
Once Jones got a taste of Haye's power he would be running all night. Around round 9 Jones starts to fall apart. The ref would have to save him.
If Haye could touch him then it is lights out. But Roy was really hard to touch in his prime and would probably knockout a tired and frustrated Haye in 10.
If.
Agreed, not infinitely fast but still faster and smarter than haye. Lets go down that list of fighters:Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodCan definitely see your point, and never take offense to counter views/points, I actually prefer them (when they are backed up with insight, as yours was). In my opinion, while Roy was fast and could hit hard at 175, he had lost some in both departments compared to what he could do at 160/168. Roy was faster than pretty much any 175 pounder, but not infinitely faster like he was at the two other weights. He was caught by inferior fighters like Eric Harding, Montell Griffin, Lou del Valle, and Antonio Tarver.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_UndisputedAlso considering that Roy barely was even touched by faster guys at lower weights, that were harder to see coming, its a little hard for me to believe that the lunging, wide hooking, wide stanced haye is gonna catch him. Also id wager to say roy was more than slightly faster than haye (no offense to Mikeeod). I just think its relativity--its easier for haye to look faster against the crop of heavyweights he's faced (even discounting the 7 ft sloth, valuev) - it doesn't me he would look as fast fighting someone from a lower class whos known for his speed. I wouldn't use ruiz as a measuring stick.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
My arguments not based on speed as much as its based on style. With hayes kinetics and wide stance, roy would just be able to see him coming from a mile away. Klitchsko did. If haye refined his style, he'd have less tells... so to speak.
This is where I see him losing to Haye at 190. I just don't see Roy being able to out speed or discourage Haye as necessary for him to last the distance. I see Roy getting backed up to the ropes and taking a pounding until he gets stopped. Can see a case for Roy to counter with something that shakes and discourages David, allowing him to pot shot to a decision, but don't think that is the most likely scenario.
Del valle - was a former sparring partner and took notes.
Griffin - had a terribly awkward style
Tarver - What version of roy did he fight?
Harding- I always thought he did a good job against roy. Then again I think roy took him lightly and lucked out with the injury to hardings bicep.
I'm not sure i could say any of those guys fought the best roy. Except maybe Griffin (the second time around). Even still has it was. Del valle would be the only one that people might say buzzed roy when he he wasn't at a known disadvantage. At his best, probably not. We need a performance where we'll see roy was at his peak for light heavy at least if we wont use the career peak roy at super middle. We'll exclude hall (because of the ripped fuel positive test), we'll exclude the telesco performance at radio city (because roy only had one hand) -- how about reggie johnson- i think roy was reasonably motivated for that one?
As i said its not a speed or power thing. Its the fact that Haye's delivery is very obvious. His feet are so wide apart that it takes him a second to set. When he is set, he now has to coil at the knees to deliver his best chance of probably catching roy (a one two), because roys not going to trade with him (roy didnt even trade with average light heavies). Haye's deliver and linear attack made him very obvious. "Retreats to the ropes and takes a pounding", really sounds like you're describing the roy with the shot knees, that was a sitting duck for green, lebedev, other cruisers and light heavies-- not a near peak jones. Jones did manage to buzz ruiz, so he wasnt without the capability. He just chose to move rather than slug... just as he would against Haye.
Lolenga Mock beats either of them.