Freddie Roach great trainer: Overated, Underated or Truly Great?

Initially I thought he was fortunate to get Virgil Hill, James Toney and Manny Pacquiao.
First time I really paid attention he was in the corner of a guy named Justin Juuko.
I am VERY impressed with the list below. I didn't know he worked with so many greats.

But how many fighters did he rear and mold? His work with Hopkins he lost. Same with DLH, Cotto and now Postal.


United Kingdom British −Amir Khan Light Welterweight
Philippines Filipino −Ana Julaton(w) Super Bantamweight
Mexico Mexican Andy Ruiz Heavyweight
Philippines Filipino Dennis Bautista Featherweight
Republic of Ireland Irish −Bernard Dunne Super Bantamweight
United States American −Bernard Hopkins Light Heavyweight
Philippines Filipino Bobby Pacquiao Lightweight
United States American Brian Minto Cruiserweight
United States American −Brian Viloria Flyweight
United Kingdom British Craig McEwan Middleweight
United States American Daniel Jacobs Middleweight
United States American David Rodela Super Featherweight
Russia Russian −Dimitri Kirilov Super Flyweight
Philippines Filipino Diosdado Gabi Bantamweight
United States American Efrain Esquivias, Jr. Super Bantamweight
United States American −Frankie Liles Super Middleweight
United Kingdom British −Gary Stretch Super Welterweight
Cuba Cuban *Guillermo Rigondeaux Super Bantamweight
Philippines Filipino −Gerry Peñalosa Bantamweight
Mexico Mexican −Israel Vasquez Super Bantamweight
United States American −James Toney Heavyweight
Republic of Ireland Irish Jamie Kavanagh Lightweight
Canada Canadian -Jean Pascal Light heavyweight
Denmark Danish −Johnny Bredahl Bantamweight
United States American −Johnny Tapia Bantamweight
Venezuela Venezuelan −Jorge Linares Lightweight
United States American José Benavidez Light Welterweight
Mexico Mexican Juan Lazcano Lightweight
Mexico Mexican −Julio César Chávez, Jr. Middleweight
Armenia Armenian Kahren Harutyunyan Bantamweight
Nigeria Nigerian Kingsley Ikeke Super Middleweight
Nigeria Nigerian Lateef Kayode Cruiserweight
Netherlands Dutch −Lucia Rijker(w) Light Welterweight
Philippines Filipino -Manny Pacquiao Welterweight
United States American −Marlon Starling Welterweight
Philippines Filipino Michael Domingo Bantamweight
Philippines Filipino Michael Farenas Super Featherweight
United States American − Michael Moorer Light Heavyweight
United States American Mickey Rourke Light Heavyweight
Puerto Rico Puerto Rican *Miguel Cotto Middleweight
United States American −Mike Tyson Heavyweight
United States American −Oscar De La Hoya Welterweight Only for his fight with Mayweather (2007).
Jamaica Jamaican −O'Neil Bell Cruiserweight
United States American Peter Manfredo Jr. Middleweight
United States American Peter Quillin Middleweight
United States American Frankie Gómez Junior Welterweight
Mexico Mexican Raymundo Beltrán Lightweight
Philippines Filipino Rey Bautista Featherweight
Russia Russian −Roman Karmazin Light Heavyweight
Russia Russian Ruslan Provodnikov Light Welterweight
Republic of Ireland Irish −Steve Collins Super Middleweight
Armenia Armenian Vanes Martirosyan Super Welterweight
United States American −Virgil Hill Light Heavyweight
Northern Ireland Northern Irish −Wayne McCullough Featherweight
Ukraine Ukrainian *Wladimir Klitschko Heavyweight (former assistant trainer)
Nigeria Nigerian Wale Omotoso Welterweight
United States American Willie Jorrin Super Bantamweight
China Chinese Zou Shiming Flyweight


Excuse the cut n paste job

How many of those guys did he teach? Mostly he gets finished products and then gets them ready for fights.
I think that, if you took a survey, the top reason fighters get sent to Wild Card is not a few rounds a week on mitts with Freddie. The main reason is access to top level sparring.

I agree with that, has to be self fulfilling once you've got a great stable, so tough to know. You think Freddie was giving James Toney anything? Take Roger or Floyd sr in the Mayweather corner! If you listen to what those guys tell Floyd between rounds, you've got to imagine a carrot would suffice in a pinch.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

How many of those guys did he teach? Mostly he gets finished products and then gets them ready for fights.
I think that, if you took a survey, the top reason fighters get sent to Wild Card is not a few rounds a week on mitts with Freddie. The main reason is access to top level sparring.

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yeah but that's what Freddie has built


they come to Freddie's gym for the sparring


that adds to his trainer ability doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

How many of those guys did he teach? Mostly he gets finished products and then gets them ready for fights.
I think that, if you took a survey, the top reason fighters get sent to Wild Card is not a few rounds a week on mitts with Freddie. The main reason is access to top level sparring.

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yeah but that's what Freddie has built


they come to Freddie's gym for the sparring


that adds to his trainer ability doesn't it?

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That was what Freddie inherited. Freddie was the underling. Eddie Futch is the legend Freddie's career was built on.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

How many of those guys did he teach? Mostly he gets finished products and then gets them ready for fights.
I think that, if you took a survey, the top reason fighters get sent to Wild Card is not a few rounds a week on mitts with Freddie. The main reason is access to top level sparring.

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yeah but that's what Freddie has built


they come to Freddie's gym for the sparring


that adds to his trainer ability doesn't it?

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That was what Freddie inherited. Freddie was the underling. Eddie Futch is the legend Freddie's career was built on.

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I don't believe he inherited all of that. He respectfully learned all he could from Futch and good ol Mickey Rourke bought Freddie that gym with his fuck money.

Freddie is a great trainer and all greats are sought out by star fighters in hopes of making them just a little better. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Hulk

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

How many of those guys did he teach? Mostly he gets finished products and then gets them ready for fights.
I think that, if you took a survey, the top reason fighters get sent to Wild Card is not a few rounds a week on mitts with Freddie. The main reason is access to top level sparring.

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yeah but that's what Freddie has built


they come to Freddie's gym for the sparring


that adds to his trainer ability doesn't it?

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That was what Freddie inherited. Freddie was the underling. Eddie Futch is the legend Freddie's career was built on.

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I don't believe he inherited all of that. He respectfully learned all he could from Futch and good ol Mickey Rourke bought Freddie that gym with his fuck money.

Freddie is a great trainer and all greats are sought out by star fighters in hopes of making them just a little better. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

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Freddie did his thing but he started out getting good fighters because people thought "he learned from Futch so he must be great". Truth is if you look at years Freddie won trainer of the year you will notice those years line up with when he trained great fighters and that is not a coincidence at all. Great trainers make many good fighters, great fighters make good trainers look like great trainers. Think of how Steward built his name, same thing. If you have great fighters you look great.

Roach is one of the most overrated trainers ever, and last night proved it. Pacquiao got exposed by Floyd, Cotto was looking like a new fighter until he fought Canelo, and now Postol got dominated by Crawford. Know what they all have in common? They all are/were trained by Roach.

If he hadn't found and trained a great talent like Pacquiao, I doubt anyone would even know who he is.

I think Postol should switch to a trainer who has him use his height and reach better, and tightens up his defense.

Pacquiao was "exposed" by Floyd, that's a good one. No trainer on earth would have led those guys to win those fights, and if Roach had happened to be in the opposite corner he would have gotten some credit. Can't have it both ways.

did he get out coached or did his fighter get out fought by someone heavier? younger/ fresher? stronger? Sometimes you do all you can but the other guys fighter just has more.

BoxRec - Brian McIntyre

This is the guy who trains Crawford, I'm sure nobody else could have taught the young man so much about the sweet science:p

This has been a debate for years. Roach is a pretty good trainer but overrated. With that said, postol wouldn't have beaten Crawford no matter who his trainer was.

Roach is overrated. That doesn't mean he isn't good though. But he doesn't teach defense and that is half of hit and don't get hit.

He did great with Pacquiao but with Pacs physical gifts he shouldn't have been so predictable. The book has been out on PAC for years and they haven't figured a way around it. Make PAC lead and step back making him overreach then counter. That is why they will choose Vargas. Crawford would counter him to pieces.

In my opinion what makes a great trainer is someone who has trained a fighter or fighters from the ground up to a world title. Steward, Futch and Sdunek have done it and I'm not sure Roach has. I think he is a very good trainer but not quite in the same class as those men.

I think Freddie is a great trainer, and definitely don't think he is underrated. James Toney, Manny, and Cotto all fought well with him in their corners. It's like saying Manny Steward wasn't great because Jermain Taylor fought like shit during their time together. Roach, Manny Steward, Eddie Futch, Bouie Fisher, Georgie Benton, brother Naz, and both Mayweathers are/were great trainers. All have had failures, because that is fighting, but all taught pupils a style that brought them to an elite level.

If we are talking overrated boxing trainers my #1 poster boy is Teddy Atlas. He's an overrated commentator in my opinion as well. If we are talking overrated regardless of discipline, I have Steven Seagal as #1 hype job.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

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Originally Posted by Hulk

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

How many of those guys did he teach? Mostly he gets finished products and then gets them ready for fights.
I think that, if you took a survey, the top reason fighters get sent to Wild Card is not a few rounds a week on mitts with Freddie. The main reason is access to top level sparring.

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yeah but that's what Freddie has built


they come to Freddie's gym for the sparring


that adds to his trainer ability doesn't it?

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That was what Freddie inherited. Freddie was the underling. Eddie Futch is the legend Freddie's career was built on.

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I don't believe he inherited all of that. He respectfully learned all he could from Futch and good ol Mickey Rourke bought Freddie that gym with his fuck money.

Freddie is a great trainer and all greats are sought out by star fighters in hopes of making them just a little better. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

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Freddie did his thing but he started out getting good fighters because people thought "he learned from Futch so he must be great". Truth is if you look at years Freddie won trainer of the year you will notice those years line up with when he trained great fighters and that is not a coincidence at all. Great trainers make many good fighters, great fighters make good trainers look like great trainers. Think of how Steward built his name, same thing. If you have great fighters you look great.

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Great points all sides.
The Manny Steward factor is where/how i would say Emmanuel is better than Freddie.
Tommy Hearns Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko all developed a skill set. Similar in style. Reach and use of jab.
Freddie doesnt seem to have a standout regiment that develops an identified style.

Yet as said above....his gym totally outranks Kronk gym.

Could Freddie have spread himself too thin? Someone would get lesser time....and pay for it.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Initially I thought he was fortunate to get Virgil Hill, James Toney and Manny Pacquiao.
First time I really paid attention he was in the corner of a guy named Justin Juuko.
I am VERY impressed with the list below. I didn't know he worked with so many greats.

But how many fighters did he rear and mold? His work with Hopkins he lost. Same with DLH, Cotto and now Postal.


United Kingdom British −Amir Khan Light Welterweight
Philippines Filipino −Ana Julaton(w) Super Bantamweight
Mexico Mexican Andy Ruiz Heavyweight
Philippines Filipino Dennis Bautista Featherweight
Republic of Ireland Irish −Bernard Dunne Super Bantamweight
United States American −Bernard Hopkins Light Heavyweight
Philippines Filipino Bobby Pacquiao Lightweight
United States American Brian Minto Cruiserweight
United States American −Brian Viloria Flyweight
United Kingdom British Craig McEwan Middleweight
United States American Daniel Jacobs Middleweight
United States American David Rodela Super Featherweight
Russia Russian −Dimitri Kirilov Super Flyweight
Philippines Filipino Diosdado Gabi Bantamweight
United States American Efrain Esquivias, Jr. Super Bantamweight
United States American −Frankie Liles Super Middleweight
United Kingdom British −Gary Stretch Super Welterweight
Cuba Cuban *Guillermo Rigondeaux Super Bantamweight
Philippines Filipino −Gerry Peñalosa Bantamweight
Mexico Mexican −Israel Vasquez Super Bantamweight
United States American −James Toney Heavyweight
Republic of Ireland Irish Jamie Kavanagh Lightweight
Canada Canadian -Jean Pascal Light heavyweight
Denmark Danish −Johnny Bredahl Bantamweight
United States American −Johnny Tapia Bantamweight
Venezuela Venezuelan −Jorge Linares Lightweight
United States American José Benavidez Light Welterweight
Mexico Mexican Juan Lazcano Lightweight
Mexico Mexican −Julio César Chávez, Jr. Middleweight
Armenia Armenian Kahren Harutyunyan Bantamweight
Nigeria Nigerian Kingsley Ikeke Super Middleweight
Nigeria Nigerian Lateef Kayode Cruiserweight
Netherlands Dutch −Lucia Rijker(w) Light Welterweight
Philippines Filipino -Manny Pacquiao Welterweight
United States American −Marlon Starling Welterweight
Philippines Filipino Michael Domingo Bantamweight
Philippines Filipino Michael Farenas Super Featherweight
United States American − Michael Moorer Light Heavyweight
United States American Mickey Rourke Light Heavyweight
Puerto Rico Puerto Rican *Miguel Cotto Middleweight
United States American −Mike Tyson Heavyweight
United States American −Oscar De La Hoya Welterweight Only for his fight with Mayweather (2007).
Jamaica Jamaican −O'Neil Bell Cruiserweight
United States American Peter Manfredo Jr. Middleweight
United States American Peter Quillin Middleweight
United States American Frankie Gómez Junior Welterweight
Mexico Mexican Raymundo Beltrán Lightweight
Philippines Filipino Rey Bautista Featherweight
Russia Russian −Roman Karmazin Light Heavyweight
Russia Russian Ruslan Provodnikov Light Welterweight
Republic of Ireland Irish −Steve Collins Super Middleweight
Armenia Armenian Vanes Martirosyan Super Welterweight
United States American −Virgil Hill Light Heavyweight
Northern Ireland Northern Irish −Wayne McCullough Featherweight
Ukraine Ukrainian *Wladimir Klitschko Heavyweight (former assistant trainer)
Nigeria Nigerian Wale Omotoso Welterweight
United States American Willie Jorrin Super Bantamweight
China Chinese Zou Shiming Flyweight


Excuse the cut n paste job

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What's Freddie's win/loss record with all these fights?

That's too great a task for me!!!!!!!

And these are the known fighters.

Justin Juuko isn't on here.

I think Freddy Roach is a special case in that he had worked with Futch as an unpaid assistant for a while. Mickey Rourke fell into his lap via Chuck Vito and Mickey paid for The Wild Card Gym and all the equipment. Freddie Roach has talent as a trainer, he's not the best but he's not the worst. But I think the biggest thing he has going is The Wild Card Gym and that is due to Mickey Rourke being one of his first boxers.

That gym attracts talent, maybe as much talent as Roach attracts. I wonder if other trainers had such nice gyms what talents they could develop.

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

I think Freddie is a great trainer, and definitely don't think he is underrated. James Toney, Manny, and Cotto all fought well with him in their corners. It's like saying Manny Steward wasn't great because Jermain Taylor fought like shit during their time together. Roach, Manny Steward, Eddie Futch, Bouie Fisher, Georgie Benton, brother Naz, and both Mayweathers are/were great trainers. All have had failures, because that is fighting, but all taught pupils a style that brought them to an elite level.

If we are talking overrated boxing trainers my #1 poster boy is Teddy Atlas. He's an overrated commentator in my opinion as well. If we are talking overrated regardless of discipline, I have Steven Seagal as #1 hype job.

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Teddy atlas is not a trainer

He's a fucking fireman

;D

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I think Freddy Roach is a special case in that he had worked with Futch as an unpaid assistant for a while. Mickey Rourke fell into his lap via Chuck Vito and Mickey paid for The Wild Card Gym and all the equipment. Freddie Roach has talent as a trainer, he's not the best but he's not the worst. But I think the biggest thing he has going is The Wild Card Gym and that is due to Mickey Rourke being one of his first boxers.

That gym attracts talent, maybe as much talent as Roach attracts. I wonder if other trainers had such nice gyms what talents they could develop.

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About 98% of all work in boxing is unpaid.
The Wild Card is not some sparkling facility, at least not when I was there. The gym where Omar Figueroa trains is nicer, in terms of equipment and space.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

How many of those guys did he teach? Mostly he gets finished products and then gets them ready for fights.
I think that, if you took a survey, the top reason fighters get sent to Wild Card is not a few rounds a week on mitts with Freddie. The main reason is access to top level sparring.

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Well put top level sparring I can't think of one fighter he's had man and boy,! unlike Stewart who produced fighters, Brendan Ingel is one more comes to mind.

I think Freddie is truly great, but like any trainer he needs a fighter with the mindset and abilities to mesh with his philosophies. I view Freddie's impact on Pac similar to Manny Steward's impact on Lennox, Wlad...etc. At the end of the day though, these trainers can't get in and fight for their guys and sometimes no amount of advice/expertise will overcome physical advantages (Floyd vs Manny...etc.).

Robert Garcia, Freddie, Abel Sanchez, Mayweathers...etc., are great trainers. There is a significant gap these days, with no Bouie Fisher, Georgie Benton, Bill Miller...etc. It's why I wish Hop, Floyd, JMM...etc., would start training guys.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

About 98% of all work in boxing is unpaid.
The Wild Card is not some sparkling facility, at least not when I was there. The gym where Omar Figueroa trains is nicer, in terms of equipment and space.

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Yeah but I am certain that better trainers haven't had gyms just land in their laps like Roach had. Between Mickey Rourke and James Toney Freddie Roach was set up quite nicely. And the gym is in LA which is a breeding ground for talent and magnet for those who want to make it big in boxing.

Who is in Figueroa's gym? Are there big time fighters in there? I honestly don't know, but I do know that Roach trains Pacquiao and when you have a stud like that in your gym it'll bring talent along....talent attracts talent.

Roach wasn't lucky to get all those top fighters. The top fighters can go to anybody they want, no trainer is going to turn down 10% of ongoing million/multimillion purses. Fighters go to him because he's got a track record of improving upcoming fighters and champions and of having the right gameplan to win fights.

There's no guarantee that just because he worked under Futch he was going to do anything. How many other guys worked under Futch or Dundee or any of the other old school top trainers and got nowhere?

There's no guarantee that Somodio or whoever has worked under Roach is going to do anything either. You've either got it or you haven't.

Merged the thread

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Originally Posted by Master

Merged the thread

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That's why you get paid the big bucks

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Roach wasn't lucky to get all those top fighters. The top fighters can go to anybody they want, no trainer is going to turn down 10% of ongoing million/multimillion purses. Fighters go to him because he's got a track record of improving upcoming fighters and champions and of having the right gameplan to win fights.

There's no guarantee that just because he worked under Futch he was going to do anything. How many other guys worked under Futch or Dundee or any of the other old school top trainers and got nowhere?

There's no guarantee that Somodio or whoever has worked under Roach is going to do anything either. You've either got it or you haven't.

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Good point .but here is another question--Isn't that standard when ANY trainer gets a winning fighter in the spotlight?

Example: Buddy Mcgirt fighter Tarver beats RJJ. Not only was he called trainer of the year...known fighters went his way as a result. Nate Campbell, Jameel McCline, Arturo Gatti.
Did he really improve these guys? Some new fighter at that time..Mike Anchondo I think...
Paulie Malinaggi came and left within 2 fights.

My point is that just like Roach ..with one success story Tarver for McGirt & Pac for Roach. ..is when their training stock...went up.
Who did Roach break out post Pac to validate his expertise? Khan? LOL!
I really liked what I saw of Lateef Kayode live...
Today he has shown no progress.

Im not saying Roach hasn't. . ..just saying, if so; whom else?

Ronnie Shields is another imo. Had a lot of known fighters after Tyson...but as soon as Juan Baby Bull Diaz got a title. ...his stock shot up. Very sought after. End result ..all his fighters got their asses torn of the henges.

Between Futch and fame, Freddie worked at a gym in La Habra, CA, in the Mexican neighborhood there. Baby Joe Ruelas fought out of there, I believe, and an Asian guy that has (had?) a boxing technique website.
@El Kabong the Figueroa gym has Omar, a former 'world' champ and his brother, who is 9-0. It was put together with Golden Boy and PBC money.

I'd imagine. Roach's health would have him retire soon. Unless he and PAC are poor hittin' 'em.

When Arum, then recently Roach state they'd like Manny to fight two more times...
I've read many a trainer asking their prized pupil to walk away...its time.
But never read a trainer saying...not now. C'mon, just two more....minimum.
IMO:

Despicable.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Good point .but here is another question--Isn't that standard when ANY trainer gets a winning fighter in the spotlight?

Example: Buddy Mcgirt fighter Tarver beats RJJ. Not only was he called trainer of the year...known fighters went his way as a result. Nate Campbell, Jameel McCline, Arturo Gatti.
Did he really improve these guys? Some new fighter at that time..Mike Anchondo I think...
Paulie Malinaggi came and left within 2 fights.

My point is that just like Roach ..with one success story Tarver for McGirt & Pac for Roach. ..is when their training stock...went up.
Who did Roach break out post Pac to validate his expertise? Khan? LOL!
I really liked what I saw of Lateef Kayode live...
Today he has shown no progress.

Im not saying Roach hasn't. . ..just saying, if so; whom else?

Ronnie Shields is another imo. Had a lot of known fighters after Tyson...but as soon as Juan Baby Bull Diaz got a title. ...his stock shot up. Very sought after. End result ..all his fighters got their asses torn of the henges.

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I remember a lot of fighters flocking to Roach and not really getting much from him. Wladimir had him as a trainer/adviser for maybe a fight or two right before the Sanders loss but the style didn't suit Wlad I guess. Roach and Fritz Sdunek trained fairly similar styles actually...all out attack, fighting out of a crouch. But I think Sdunek would adapt his training to the individual fighters as Vitali his main guy didn't fight out of a crouch at all, quite the opposite.


McGirt and Shields have had their successes in waves...they'll help a few guys out and then suffer some losses and they never hang on to their talent. McGirt extended Gatti's career and got him a big money fight vs Floyd. Shields got a guy like Rocky Juarez to over achieve. But look at McGirt with Tarver in the fights after RJJ, where was the master tactician then? And similarly, when someone keeps a Roach fighter from giving 100% in attack they lose....JMM has taught us that lesson time and time again.

Overrated ? No.

Roach trained the fighter (who in my opinion) came the closest to beating Floyd when he trained Oscar for only 1 fight. Oscar was able to get a decision on one judge despite being faded already in his career and Jr. was in his prime.

I do think too many fighters believe Roach is a miracle coach and by switching to him it means automatic success and that is so far from the truth.

They need to continue putting in their work in the gym and outside the gym to get the results.

People can say “Roach is not that good because he gets the finished product”

But is Tyronn Lue an average coach of the Cleveland Cavaliers because he gets the finished product?

Is coach of the Brazil soccer team an average coach because he gets the finished product ?

Also being a great coach/trainer is not about devising tactics, it's also to do with understanding people, keeping people happy. Making sure there are no beefs. This is even more so with boxers.

At one time Roach had Mike Tyson. Jame Toney. Johnny Tapia all at the same time, all under his wing, all training at his gym and all getting on.

I mean that must take some skill keeping those happy. He got good results out of all of them. But dealing with those 4 personalities in training and trying to keep them focused is a gruelling task.

I think he did great with Chavez and totally reborn Cotto in an offensive predator like his early pre-margs days until he ran into Canelo

How many fighters has Floyd sr taken to the top besides his son? The dude has never been successful with any other fighters unlike roach

I would rate Nacho Beristain and Nazim Richardson alongside Roach as the best trainers of their generation.

I think Paulie Maliggnagi had a falling out with Buddy McGirt because he said he was only interested in money.

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Originally Posted by Master

I think Paulie Maliggnagi had a falling out with Buddy McGirt because he said he was only interested in money.

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Only interested in money? but I recall Buddy giving Paulie a free haircut in between rounds. ;D Seriously though, it's totally possible... you dont hear much from buddy or his kid now a days.
As someone mentioned up above, his stock shot up like a rocket after tarver knocked out roy and people totally ignored the perfect storm of things that contributed to that and just credited Buddy with plan that turned tarver from crackhead to champion. Mcgirt had a hard on for roy for years and claimed he always had the plan to beat roy. Roy Dropping that weight and the slippage in skills. Tarver being a late bloomer and Roy fading so rapidly because his style was pivotal on his speed and reflexes rather than the fundamentals. Buddy looked like a genius because noone attributed it to being in the right place at the right time.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Roach wasn't lucky to get all those top fighters. The top fighters can go to anybody they want, no trainer is going to turn down 10% of ongoing million/multimillion purses. Fighters go to him because he's got a track record of improving upcoming fighters and champions and of having the right gameplan to win fights.

There's no guarantee that just because he worked under Futch he was going to do anything. How many other guys worked under Futch or Dundee or any of the other old school top trainers and got nowhere?

There's no guarantee that Somodio or whoever has worked under Roach is going to do anything either. You've either got it or you haven't.

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Good point .but here is another question--Isn't that standard when ANY trainer gets a winning fighter in the spotlight?

Example: Buddy Mcgirt fighter Tarver beats RJJ. Not only was he called trainer of the year...known fighters went his way as a result. Nate Campbell, Jameel McCline, Arturo Gatti.
Did he really improve these guys? Some new fighter at that time..Mike Anchondo I think...
Paulie Malinaggi came and left within 2 fights.

My point is that just like Roach ..with one success story Tarver for McGirt & Pac for Roach. ..is when their training stock...went up.
Who did Roach break out post Pac to validate his expertise? Khan? LOL!
I really liked what I saw of Lateef Kayode live...
Today he has shown no progress.

Im not saying Roach hasn't. . ..just saying, if so; whom else?

Ronnie Shields is another imo. Had a lot of known fighters after Tyson...but as soon as Juan Baby Bull Diaz got a title. ...his stock shot up. Very sought after. End result ..all his fighters got their asses torn of the henges.

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Buddy McGirt went from hero to zero in the shortest time. One minute he was flavour of the month and everybody wanted him to train them, the next minute he'd been "exposed" and was dogshit. I think fighters make trainers rather than the other way round but some trainers can definitely add levels to prospects or established champions and Roach's track record over his long career says he's one of those guys if not the best.

Put it this way, if you were an upcoming fighter like Valdez Junior who fought the other night and were being viewed as a potential PPV superstar and you were in the market for a new trainer, who would you go to? I know who I'd pick.

There is definitely a chemistry factor to take into account. So there are probably some fighters Roach couldn't help anymore than say Manny Steward with Jermain Taylor. Horrible team. Or Mayweather Sr. and Hatton.

I do think that Lateef Kayode has potential and Freddie has failed to bring it out.
Maybe his biggest failure is trying to work with too many fighters at the same time.

Great posts all around.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

There is definitely a chemistry factor to take into account. So there are probably some fighters Roach couldn't help anymore than say Manny Steward with Jermain Taylor. Horrible team. Or Mayweather Sr. and Hatton.

I do think that Lateef Kayode has potential and Freddie has failed to bring it out.
Maybe his biggest failure is trying to work with too many fighters at the same time.

Great posts all around.

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I think Jermain Taylor was a lot like Chad Dawson....both guys had natural talent and ability, they achieved some great things, but they failed to address their shortcomings and it caught up with them. They did not take the extra steps to become true greats of the sport. Great fighters adapt and if you have a trainer that you do not listen to then what good is he? He could be the best trainer ever but if the fighter does not listen there's nothing that can be done.

Roach has surely come across a few of those guys in his career, but that's the life of a top tier trainer

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

There is definitely a chemistry factor to take into account. So there are probably some fighters Roach couldn't help anymore than say Manny Steward with Jermain Taylor. Horrible team. Or Mayweather Sr. and Hatton.

I do think that Lateef Kayode has potential and Freddie has failed to bring it out.
Maybe his biggest failure is trying to work with too many fighters at the same time.

Great posts all around.

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I think Jermain Taylor was a lot like Chad Dawson....both guys had natural talent and ability, they achieved some great things, but they failed to address their shortcomings and it caught up with them. They did not take the extra steps to become true greats of the sport. Great fighters adapt and if you have a trainer that you do not listen to then what good is he? He could be the best trainer ever but if the fighter does not listen there's nothing that can be done.

Roach has surely come across a few of those guys in his career, but that's the life of a top tier trainer

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Taylor is an interesting subject. I agree he didn't live up to expectations but I also think he may have had a stamina issue.
Dawson really saddens me. As you stated he totally failed to listen to any of his trainers.
...Spent some time with Chad at the IBHOF, just a humble guy. Even laughed a bit. To see him without a belt...gotta hold him accountable first.