Someone mentioned them as a hypothetical matchup ... Who would you pick at welter primes let's say over 15 rounds ?!
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Someone mentioned them as a hypothetical matchup ... Who would you pick at welter primes let's say over 15 rounds ?!
Hitman all day by KO 1 to 3 rounds max Tito can bang a bit but Tommy just has way to much power and is a far better boxer.
Hearns goes out trying to intimidate Tito and drops him. Tito gets up and Hearns hangs in the pocket trying to engage Tito just a little too much and gets caught. Hearns doesn't want more of that (neither would steward) and adjusts trying to pick Tito off for the rest of the fight from the outside, the way de la hoya did only more effective. (he wobbles him/drops him once or twice more but its nothing like the drowning from hopkins).
Theres a chance tito could win by stoppage, depending on when and where he caught Tommy and puts him on the tilt a whirl and how much time he had left in the round to finish him, but chances are the kronk team is very aware of that and avoids it except if/when tommy goes rogue and gets caught with a reminder.
I doubt Trinidad hurts Hearns, even if he catches him with a shot, especially at 147.
Hearns by stoppage in round 7
My totally unbiased opinion..... ;D
At 147 Trinidad KO's Hearns in the middle rounds.
Any heavier than that and I think Hearns has the definite edge.
Off the top you have to love the confidence these two stepped in with. Hardly a hint of doubt between them.But Trinidad never really faced anything like that fluid size and brick down the middle at 147, and what Oscar could do before turning reversed Usain Bolt I think Hearns can. Both can be hurt but I'm not convinced Tito climbs off the canvas smiling so much vs Hearns as he did with guys far below the talent level.
Tito was an excellent fighter, with great knockout power, will and courage. He had some technical flaws though, his balance was pretty atrocious and his power compensated for quite a few deficiencies.
I think Tommy more than matches Tito for speed and power, but he had much sounder boxing skills. He was a very underrated boxer.
Either guy could definitely hurt the other, but I strongly suspect that Hearns' much better all round skill set would mean he doesn't get outboxed, doesn't get caught by a big shot .... and it's him who lands that huge right first. He doesn't let people off the hook when he has them going either.
Anyone who could comprehensively outbox Ray Leonard and crush Roberto Duran would have the beating of Tito.
Hearns was much more fluid , he punched with much more speed. I would imagine both respect each others power early , but Hearns was the motor city cobra at WW , he strikes in the blink of an eye and Felix is staring at the ring lights.
As all great champions do Felix climbs up at 8 , but the follow up assault is swift and final.
Hearns KO 2.
Real exciting fight with 2 tall big punchers.
Love both fighters with a passion so I have no bias (unlike Tito ;))
Tito was knocked down early on a number of occasions, mainly because he started slowly, so could see Tommy KO early and keep Tito down. (50% chance)
If Tommy is reckless then I could see Tito knock out Tommy in the exchange. (30% chance)
If they both survive the early knockdowns then Tommy on points as he was the better boxer. (15% chance)
Tito could go for broke if he feels he is losing the fight and try for the knock out late. (5% chance)
I think about this match up quite a bit, and have been all over the place on how I see it unfold. Both were large, dominant welters with impressive offensive arsenals in their respective primes. That being said, both had enough flaws that they were not unbeatable, especially when fighting fellow elite fighters.
Hearns was significantly taller than Tito, which was a factor that Tito rarely had to deal with. Tommy also was much faster and mobile in his prime (hand and feet), and was able to outbox master boxers like Ray Leonard and Wilfredo Benitez. The one punch power advantage belonged to Tommy thanks to his right hand (he had a great left hook as well), but his chinks in the armor were his chin and stamina.
Tito was a monster at 147, and during his best years was actually a solid boxer who had legitimate one punch power (people forget how solid Tito was before he fell in love with his punch). I would argue that Tito's left hook was only slightly less effective/menacing than Hearns's right hand, and I feel that Tito was a much more devastating body puncher than Tommy ever was. Tito had phenomenal stamina during his prime, and was the definition of relentless pressure, grinding down top notch competition, many times rising from a knockdown to do so. Tito was a notoriously slow starter, was thoroughly out boxed by Oscar, Hop, and Winky, and became a one dimensional pressure fighter who moved in straight lines forward and backward (little to no lateral movement).
Tommy came out of the gate looking to blow the other fighter out, where Tito took a few rounds to find his groove, so I can see and agree with everyone's point/prediction that Tito would visit the canvas early. That being said, Tito always got up from the knock downs scarier/more determined, and often broke his opponents mentally through hard punching and sustained pressure. Tommy definitely had the versatility, speed, and boxing skills to change tactics and box circles around Tito, developing a lead on the scorecards and winning a decision.
My question/dilemma now, is whether Tommy could sustain that pace and not wilt from Tito's pressure, body work, and punch. Some days I think Tito doesn't touch him, but often remember that welter Tito could counter effectively, and was a devastating body puncher. So, while I see Tommy standing a better chance to win, it isn't by that much and feel that Tito had the power to land one left hook to the body or head and change the outcome of the fight. Would've loved to see these two warriors share a ring.
I think we can all agree that above welterweight Hearns is more likely the winner of the fights.
Welterweight 51% Hearns wins
Light Middle 60%
Middleweight 70%
Supermiddle 80%
(What is it with me and % today? :confused:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Great post with a lot of good points.
Hearns was much too tall for 147, whereas Trinidad was at his best between 147 and 154. Hearns feasted on much shorter guys, like Pipino Cuevas, for instance. But he was rail-thin and could be hurt to the body. Yes, people tend to forget about Trinidad's peak and some of the world-class opposition he destroyed.
I'm gonna follow Master's lead and use percentages. ;D
Welterweight: Trinidad - 60%
Jr. Middleweight: 50/50
Middleweight: Hearns - 75%
Hearns is going to make Tito look like a fool much like Oscar, Hopkins and Wright did. Tito could be out boxed his movement was not elite and could not adjust his game plan. As for Hearns chin he was stopped by Hagler and Blade who were huge hitters it took Leonard for ever to stop him.
Hearns was hurt many times in his career notably Roldan and Kitchen but fought back and won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
At 147 Trinidad's body shots cave in Hearns. A left hook to the chin would just be the icing on the cake.
Leonard was not known for his power.
Now that you mention Oscar, however....
Oscar would be KO'ed inside 8 rounds by Hearns at 147.
Never said Oscar would win he just out boxed Tito and so would Hearns. Leonard had power at ww and he is miles ahead of tito when it comes to boxing his foot work makes tito look like a amateur. Took him for ever to find Hearns Tito getting a boxing lesson from hitman or put to sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
At 147 Trinidad's body shots cave in Hearns. A left hook to the chin would just be the icing on the cake.
Leonard was not known for his power.
Now that you mention Oscar, however....
Oscar would be KO'ed inside 8 rounds by Hearns at 147.
Trinidad was also slow of foot , and his body shots ? Hearns was brutal to the body.
I just don't see Felix winning this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140Never said Oscar would win he just out boxed Tito and so would Hearns. Leonard had power at ww and he is miles ahead of tito when it comes to boxing his foot work makes tito look like a amateur. Took him for ever to find Hearns Tito getting a boxing lesson from hitman or put to sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
At 147 Trinidad's body shots cave in Hearns. A left hook to the chin would just be the icing on the cake.
Leonard was not known for his power.
Now that you mention Oscar, however....
Oscar would be KO'ed inside 8 rounds by Hearns at 147.
We'll never know will we. Consider that most of Hearns' victims at 147 were much shorter than him, and with a power deficit, although Pipino Cuevas was a fearsome puncher in his own right. Trinidad was a lot closer in height, something Hearns wasn't used to at 147. Hearns gave Leonard all sorts of problems, but it wasn't because he outboxed him. Few if any fighters could outbox Leonard. It was Hearns' power and reach that bothered Leonard. Hearns also used his jab very effectively. That being said, I don't see Hearns outboxing Trinidad by as much a margin as you say. Take that away and all that's left is Hearns' power vs. Trinidad's. Trinidad also had tremendous stamina and recuperative powers, something rarely mentioned here. No boxing lesson here. Trinidad takes out Hearns at 147 in the middle rounds at the latest.
Don't necessarily agree that Tito stops him in the middle rounds at the latest, but also don't agree that it is a guaranteed win for Tommy either. I feel like Tito was the much more sturdy/durable Welter. Also, Tito was solid in his prime, as evidenced by his destruction of Blocker, who was about as tall and slick as Tommy, but nowhere near the puncher he was. Still, Tito would fight Tommy in the same fashion and I can see him hurting Tommys body or landing a counter hook and winning. Fascinating fight that would come down to whose night it was...Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140Never said Oscar would win he just out boxed Tito and so would Hearns. Leonard had power at ww and he is miles ahead of tito when it comes to boxing his foot work makes tito look like a amateur. Took him for ever to find Hearns Tito getting a boxing lesson from hitman or put to sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
At 147 Trinidad's body shots cave in Hearns. A left hook to the chin would just be the icing on the cake.
Leonard was not known for his power.
Now that you mention Oscar, however....
Oscar would be KO'ed inside 8 rounds by Hearns at 147.
We'll never know will we. Consider that most of Hearns' victims at 147 were much shorter than him, and with a power deficit, although Pipino Cuevas was a fearsome puncher in his own right. Trinidad was a lot closer in height, something Hearns wasn't used to at 147. Hearns gave Leonard all sorts of problems, but it wasn't because he outboxed him. Few if any fighters could outbox Leonard. It was Hearns' power and reach that bothered Leonard. Hearns also used his jab very effectively. That being said, I don't see Hearns outboxing Trinidad by as much a margin as you say. Take that away and all that's left is Hearns' power vs. Trinidad's. Trinidad also had tremendous stamina and recuperative powers, something rarely mentioned here. No boxing lesson here. Trinidad takes out Hearns at 147 in the middle rounds at the latest.
You have to admit Blocker was a finished fighter by the time Tito destroyed him. Not the same fighter that fought a tough fight against Lloyd Honeyghan.
The style of Hearns is all wrong for Trinidad. As much as I like Tito he gets absolutely brutalized in this one. Hopkins KO'd Trinidad, Hearns would KO Trinidad. The jab alone would take Trinidad out of the fight.
I still think Trinidad vs Mosley would have been epic if they met in their primes
Watching Hearns irritates me. It really does. It almost hurts my eyes to see that languid, loose slackness. I actually Hate it. I'm a tall guy and I can't imaging wanting to be that loose. Nothing is tight about his style.
It obviously works for him and I'm sure in his mind, he needs to be as loose as possible to get in his 'mode' but it has also been his undoing on a number of occasions, so I can see why he'd be prone to getting bowled over by a Tito onslaught.
But undeniably, everything else points to Hearns for the win.
Leonard was 5'10 with a 74 inch reach and Tito is 5'11 with a 72.5 reach and Tommy Hearns is 6'1 with a a 78 inch reach so not like Tito be better off with shorter reach then Leonard. We do not know what would happen but every time he has face elite boxer he got lesson be no different with Hearns.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140Never said Oscar would win he just out boxed Tito and so would Hearns. Leonard had power at ww and he is miles ahead of tito when it comes to boxing his foot work makes tito look like a amateur. Took him for ever to find Hearns Tito getting a boxing lesson from hitman or put to sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
At 147 Trinidad's body shots cave in Hearns. A left hook to the chin would just be the icing on the cake.
Leonard was not known for his power.
Now that you mention Oscar, however....
Oscar would be KO'ed inside 8 rounds by Hearns at 147.
We'll never know will we. Consider that most of Hearns' victims at 147 were much shorter than him, and with a power deficit, although Pipino Cuevas was a fearsome puncher in his own right. Trinidad was a lot closer in height, something Hearns wasn't used to at 147. Hearns gave Leonard all sorts of problems, but it wasn't because he outboxed him. Few if any fighters could outbox Leonard. It was Hearns' power and reach that bothered Leonard. Hearns also used his jab very effectively. That being said, I don't see Hearns outboxing Trinidad by as much a margin as you say. Take that away and all that's left is Hearns' power vs. Trinidad's. Trinidad also had tremendous stamina and recuperative powers, something rarely mentioned here. No boxing lesson here. Trinidad takes out Hearns at 147 in the middle rounds at the latest.
Oh yes he was. One of the hardest hitting Welters everQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanLeonard was not known for his power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
.
He was definitely a spent shell and shouldn't have been allowed to fight Norris let alone out for the second round. Great frame but I even had Garcia edging him. This early Tito was picking bones for his inaugural strap. Hearns right would have been hellacious on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
This is like the boxing version of refried beans or MASH reruns. After a while they both get you sick.
I know this line gets regurgitated a lot, but to me it just discounts and insults the merits of all of Trinidad's victims throughout his career. And it ignores the fact that of Trinidad's three losses, one came against RJJ Jr at 170 and near the end of both their careers, and another was against a defensive wizard in Wright. Granted, Trinidad was clueless in both the Wright fight and the Hopkins fight, but hey.... still a HOF and ATG career.
I don't mind the opinions of those who feel Hearns would have KO'ed Trinidad at any weight. I'm not so sure that wouldn't happen myself. But seeing Trinidad's weaknesses from a constructive viewpoint and just plain hating on the man, are two completely different things. I always know where you're coming from.
;)
I do not think he is hating, it is just his opinion. I do know that if Trinidad did land he would finish Hearns at welterweight. Tito was an excellent finisher.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
This is like the boxing version of refried beans or MASH reruns. After a while they both get you sick.
I know this line gets regurgitated a lot, but to me it just discounts and insults the merits of all of Trinidad's victims throughout his career. And it ignores the fact that of Trinidad's three losses, one came against RJJ Jr at 170 and near the end of both their careers, and another was against a defensive wizard in Wright. Granted, Trinidad was clueless in both the Wright fight and the Hopkins fight, but hey.... still a HOF and ATG career.
I don't mind the opinions of those who feel Hearns would have KO'ed Trinidad at any weight. I'm not so sure that wouldn't happen myself. But seeing Trinidad's weaknesses from a constructive viewpoint and just plain hating on the man, are two completely different things. I always know where you're coming from.
;)
It is fine if he does not want to listen to reason for the love of god he said that Leonard was not known for his power as a ww what kinda person says that. Tito got huge gift against Oscar who also came up short in big fights. He also did not win a round damn near against Wright or Hopkins yet he is going beat Hearns not to mention he would get drop early slow starter. Leonard had power better reach better foot work and better chin and he had to lose his eye to beat Hearns.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI do not think he is hating, it is just his opinion. I do know that if Trinidad did land he would finish Hearns at welterweight. Tito was an excellent finisher.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
This is like the boxing version of refried beans or MASH reruns. After a while they both get you sick.
I know this line gets regurgitated a lot, but to me it just discounts and insults the merits of all of Trinidad's victims throughout his career. And it ignores the fact that of Trinidad's three losses, one came against RJJ Jr at 170 and near the end of both their careers, and another was against a defensive wizard in Wright. Granted, Trinidad was clueless in both the Wright fight and the Hopkins fight, but hey.... still a HOF and ATG career.
I don't mind the opinions of those who feel Hearns would have KO'ed Trinidad at any weight. I'm not so sure that wouldn't happen myself. But seeing Trinidad's weaknesses from a constructive viewpoint and just plain hating on the man, are two completely different things. I always know where you're coming from.
;)
Hearns beats Trinidad. Why? He was the better fighter
This right here makes me question how many fights he has seen of Leonard at ww. The guy had power but when he moved up he was more about boxing then going for the kill. Leonard could of maybe thrown harder punches against Hagler but it was pointless so Leonard did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepwalkerOh yes he was. One of the hardest hitting Welters everQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanLeonard was not known for his power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140This right here makes me question how many fights he has seen of Leonard at ww. The guy had power but when he moved up he was more about boxing then going for the kill. Leonard could of maybe thrown harder punches against Hagler but it was pointless so Leonard did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepwalkerOh yes he was. One of the hardest hitting Welters everQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanLeonard was not known for his power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
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Saw plenty of fights of Leonard at WW. Probably more than yourself. And I'll stick with my assertion. While Leonard could certainly muster the good shot, he was known much more for his slick boxing skills than for his power. I don't see that as even being debatable.
Tito hit harder at welterweight than Leonard but Leonard was probably the 2nd best welterweight ever.
Amazing fighter. (I do not like him)
I'm a massive Leonard fan. One of the best in history, IMO. Big fan of Hearns, also.