Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Boxing is that unique sport where we all feel we're a better judge than the next guy. ;D
The real judges, the ones who get paid to judge a professional fight, have a tough job. They have to accurately score the fight to the best of their ability... and are sure to get criticized by us boxing fans. Although sometimes they have no business judging a boxing match, as was the case of CJ Ross and her assessment of the Floyd-Canelo shutout.
Fighters know they're being judged. So many of them become adept at doing specific things in the ring designed solely to sway the judges opinion in the end. One of these techniques is the Pitty-Pat Flurry.
What's a Pitty-Pat Flurry? It's a huge volume of "punches" thrown with no particular intent or effect, other than to sway judges who may be swayed by that sort of thing. It usually happens toward the end of the round, where it'll be the last impression the judge had of the round. If done right, the other fighter is busy covering up... just in case one of those punches actually does have a little power. But mostly... they're just arm punches with little or no power. Most of the time they're not even punches, but slaps.
Who uses or used this technique to perfection? Some very good and famous fighters. To me the most famous ones are De La Hoya and Calzaghe. I remember seeing some perfect PPF's by DLH against Quartey... and by Calzaghe against Manfredo. But these guys did this constantly... and it swayed the judges (as well as the crowd, which in turn sways the judges as well).
But DLH and Joe aren't the only ones to use this technique. Other greats, such as Floyd, did as well. Ali and SRL in their time were pretty good at the technique also. Difference for me is that Ali and SRL's flurries rarely looked "slappy."
Personally, I hate the PPF's. Once in awhile is ok... but when a guy uses it constantly, it takes away from his performance, IMO. I much prefer the power combos, where the fighter throws punches in bunches... but they're powerful and effective. Roy Jones Jr. had probably the fastest power combinations of anyone I can remember. Now those were a joy to watch. Mike Tyson at his peak was famous for his powerful combos. Other fighters, like Alexis Arguello, who threw beautiful combinations designed to hurt people. Duran had pretty fast hands and obviously never used PPF's.
I suppose everyone at some point will throw the showy flurries.
But when it becomes noticeable among fans in general... and commentators call you out on it... you're probably doing it a little too much.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Reminds me of the fight between James Toney v Mike McCallum 1, where Mike was landing the jabs and point scoring shots and Toney would land the bombs and impact punches. Made the fight difficult to score for me but I went with the body snatcher when most went for lights out.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Did you see Manfredo punching back?
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
C'mon. He didn't get slapped not even once during that PPF. He was covering up, but was by no means a defenseless victim.
Not to mention Manfredo was crap and should've never lasted that long in the first place.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Ali pitti patt punches v Foreman's bombs worked. ;)
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
C'mon. He didn't get slapped not even once during that PPF. He was covering up, but was by no means a defenseless victim.
Not to mention Manfredo was crap and should've never lasted that long in the first place.
When has Cotto ever managed to throw more than 60 punches a round. He could have used some Calxaghe fairy dust against Mayweather. It wins fights. All this plod plod plod 3 punches at a time shit is predictable. You can't throw with a Calzaghe windmill. GOAT.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
I think sometimes it depends on the fighter. For instance, I watch Lomachenko throw flurries but you can tell that he varies the forces on the punches. Some seem to be designed to get his opponents to turn into the harder punches or blind them from seeing the harder punches.
Some guys are just soft touches. They are not blessed with the power to put a guy out. So I don't mind flurries if that's all the guy has, but for love of God, at least work on the accuracy and defense, so it looks intended on finishing a fight and not premeditated with the judges or referee in mind. Nothing worse than a guy that pitty pats you and then clinches you and then tries to throw real punches where its safe (like ward). Or pitty pats you and then gets on his bike with his hands up and out while circling you from 5 feet out. Pernell didnt really have that power, but i still never got tired of watching him.
I know i've had enough of the posturing for judges/ref, when i get to the point in a fight where im saying to myself... "If this was in an alley instead of ring... that guy would be dead by now..."
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
When I think of pitty pat punchers or flurry & flee types it also comes down to mentality and approach. Speedy rapid fire is fun to watch even if it's more clean than it is actually hurting. Head snapping sweat flying and cuts opening pitty pat and volume works, defensive minded elusive and the hands are as fast as the feet. I can handle that. But when it gets to some flurry punchers they wear it and are punching from the backseat. Camacho made a second career of it and Mayweather even wore the facial grimace, Nerf ball flurry and get away! But both and most in flurry mode could sit down power in spots to get respect and reset the table. Virgil Hill lived on flurry feather dusters and getting out but still has two of the most impressive first round ko's I've seen. As big a wanker as Oscar was and continues to be he had good power mix in his combos. Guys like McCullough, Juan Diaz or Dorsey were pure volume with little pop but their approach made them fun. Tim Bradley? Now Sam Soliman or Cory Spinks :-X have struck me as swatting flies after a six'er.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
C'mon. He didn't get slapped not even once during that PPF. He was covering up, but was by no means a defenseless victim.
Not to mention Manfredo was crap and should've never lasted that long in the first place.
When has Cotto ever managed to throw more than 60 punches a round. He could have used some Calxaghe fairy dust against Mayweather. It wins fights. All this plod plod plod 3 punches at a time shit is predictable. You can't throw with a Calzaghe windmill. GOAT.
Quality > Quantity
Especially if the quantity involves scores of PPF's. I thought Cotto did more than a respectable job against Mayweather. Certainly better than most of Floyd's recent opponents. He pressed Mayweather and made him work... bloodied his nose. No PPF's there. It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. You're a fan of the Pitty Pat Flurries. I prefer meaningful punches. Windmills are for sissies.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
C'mon. He didn't get slapped not even once during that PPF. He was covering up, but was by no means a defenseless victim.
Not to mention Manfredo was crap and should've never lasted that long in the first place.
When has Cotto ever managed to throw more than 60 punches a round. He could have used some Calxaghe fairy dust against Mayweather. It wins fights. All this plod plod plod 3 punches at a time shit is predictable. You can't throw with a Calzaghe windmill. GOAT.
Quality > Quantity
Especially if the quantity involves scores of PPF's. I thought Cotto did more than a respectable job against Mayweather. Certainly better than most of Floyd's recent opponents. He pressed Mayweather and made him work... bloodied his nose. No PPF's there. It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. You're a fan of the Pitty Pat Flurries. I prefer meaningful punches. Windmills are for sissies.
I think Cotto did well too, but imagine if in some of the those rounds he had the capacity to throw 100 punches and give Mayweather even less room to breathe. The fight would have been his. It's easy to diss Calzaghe but he landed a lot more than anyone could land on him. Cotto could have used some of that pixie dust. It wins fights. That GIF of Calzaghe is picking and choosing. You could easily find one against Lacy where 8 out of 10 land. They are punches that bloody noses and cut eyes too.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
C'mon. He didn't get slapped not even once during that PPF. He was covering up, but was by no means a defenseless victim.
Not to mention Manfredo was crap and should've never lasted that long in the first place.
When has Cotto ever managed to throw more than 60 punches a round. He could have used some Calxaghe fairy dust against Mayweather. It wins fights. All this plod plod plod 3 punches at a time shit is predictable. You can't throw with a Calzaghe windmill. GOAT.
Quality > Quantity
Especially if the quantity involves scores of PPF's. I thought Cotto did more than a respectable job against Mayweather. Certainly better than most of Floyd's recent opponents. He pressed Mayweather and made him work... bloodied his nose. No PPF's there. It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. You're a fan of the Pitty Pat Flurries. I prefer meaningful punches. Windmills are for sissies.
I think Cotto did well too, but imagine if in some of the those rounds he had the capacity to throw 100 punches and give Mayweather even less room to breathe. The fight would have been his. It's easy to diss Calzaghe but he landed a lot more than anyone could land on him. Cotto could have used some of that pixie dust. It wins fights. That GIF of Calzaghe is picking and choosing. You could easily find one against Lacy where 8 out of 10 land. They are punches that bloody noses and cut eyes too.
But you see that's the thing. I don't think just because Cotto would throw 100 punches a round doesn't necessarily mean he would've been effective against Mayweather. These punches are not thrown in a vacuum. The other guy is doing things himself to make you stop throwing punches and assume a defensive position. Trying to boil down boxing to volumes of punches only is simplistic. Sure, you can always make a case for more punches... and sometimes as fans we're there saying "Why isn't he getting off more?" But we're couch fighters, watching from the comfort of our TV room. The GIF of Calzaghe I'm sure wasn't representative of ALL his flurries. But I still think both he and DLH were masters at the deceptive flurries designed to impress the judges and nothing else.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcnbUkpJIXw
Pitty pat punches wouldn't be causing damage like this. Just because Calzaghe is too fast to see properly, he is still accumulating and accumulating and damage gets done. You contrast it with someone throwing 50 punches a round. Maybe they cause some damage, maybe not, but the other guy is likely keeping up with you with a workrate like that. With a 80-100 punches, nobody is keeping up with you. That's what lost Cotto the Mayweather fight, not enough work to make it clear. He did do well though in winning some rounds, but he only threw 40 punches a round. That's pretty low.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Didn't say ALL his punches were pitty-pat. The Lacy fight was arguably one of his best performances. But consider he was fighting a guy who was head-hunting... had horrible leg movement... and Calzaghe practically took him to school. Lacy is not to be confused with Mayweather or anything near that level. When you throw 100 punches per round, many are going to miss. But the judges will credit you with the awesome volume, regardless of the connect rate.... or the force of the punch. Again, Calzaghe totally dominated Lacy. But that doesn't change the fact that he was prone to the PPF, and many of his combinations in other fights were more slaps than punches. Judges fall for the flashy hands. Oscar did it too, and was a master at it. He conned his way into a victory over Ike Quartey with those techniques.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
How is it conning anyone when you outland the other guy by between 100-300 punches? Hopkins is perhaps a better Mayweather comparison in terms of slowing Calzaghe down, but he still got hit with with 232 punches out of 700. 300 more than what Cotto threw against Floyd. I think Calzaghe sometimes gets criticised unfairly as he wasn't like Malignaggi, he could still hurt and bust up opponents. Look at Lacy's face, the body shot that cut Kessler down, Jones Jr's face post round 6 etc. He threw and caused damage. He had the ability to keep fighters more than honest, but to win rounds convincingly the key is to dazzle so that there is no doubt. You can't do it with 40 punches a round and 6 key shots as there is every chance the other guy might do the same. You cannot compete with 80 punches and 25-30 of them getting through.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Maybe Oscar did some conning, but I don't know about that. My field is more Calzaghe really.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
You're veering off course, Miles. The thread isn't about comparing JC's volume of punches with anyone else's. We all know volume punching was Joe's trademark. The thread is about effective punching vs. useless flurries designed not to hurt but to impress. I didn't say JC did it all the time. But he did do it. Against Manfredo... against BHop... it was just one of his techniques. Different fighters have different styles. Some try to overwhelm you with volume. Others pick and choose their spots. They may not throw 1000 punches per round... but the mere 50 they throw they make them count. Again, beauty, the eye of the beholder, and all that.
I also mentioned the timing of these flurries. Oscar was pretty adept at doing them toward the end of rounds, in order to try and steal the round. Again... it's a technique. If it sways the judges, more power to you.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Have to disagree with both Oscar and Joe being pity patt combo artists. Oscar was like Roy, where they would throw combos and vary the power and speed to throw the other fighter off and open them up. Joe had bad hands towards the end, so he had to be more cautious and selective as to when he would throw the hard shots.
Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom was the first fighter I recall throwing what we used to refer to as "shoe shine" combos. Ray Leonard used the shoe shine flurry to steal the fight vs. Hagler, but prior to that Ray would put some heat on those combos, so I don't really see him as a pitty pat guy.
Camacho, later in his career, turned into a PPF guy, but you saw how ineffective that was vs. Chavez, Oscar, and Tito. Great analogy/example using the Toney/Body Snatcher fight, and to a degree the Ali-Foreman fight. Ali's chin and conditioning allowed him to hang on to stop an exhausted foreman. That being said, if George had paid even a little attention to pace, he dominates Ali and wins the fight (shows how great Ali was at getting in people's heads).
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Have to disagree with both Oscar and Joe being pity patt combo artists. Oscar was like Roy, where they would throw combos and vary the power and speed to throw the other fighter off and open them up. Joe had bad hands towards the end, so he had to be more cautious and selective as to when he would throw the hard shots.
Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom was the first fighter I recall throwing what we used to refer to as "shoe shine" combos. Ray Leonard used the shoe shine flurry to steal the fight vs. Hagler, but prior to that Ray would put some heat on those combos, so I don't really see him as a pitty pat guy.
Camacho, later in his career, turned into a PPF guy, but you saw how ineffective that was vs. Chavez, Oscar, and Tito. Great analogy/example using the Toney/Body Snatcher fight, and to a degree the Ali-Foreman fight. Ali's chin and conditioning allowed him to hang on to stop an exhausted foreman. That being said, if George had paid even a little attention to pace, he dominates Ali and wins the fight (shows how great Ali was at getting in people's heads).
Good points all, but I'll stick to my opinion on both Oscar and Joe. No doubt Oscar had the ability to sit down on his punches and throw good combinations. But many times he was guilty of the "showy flurry" which did nothing. Same with Joe. Roy I never saw do that. Roy was that rare individual who would throw lightning fast combos, but almost always with power and intent. You mentioned Leonard vs Hagler and I couldn't agree more. Matter of fact that is my least favorite of the SRL fights. Hagler should've had a better fight plan coming in to neutralize that. Sugar Ray doesn't get away with that a second time around. Ali could certainly do "pitty pat", but the Foreman fight is not a good example. Ali had the perfect strategy, letting Foreman stupidly punch himself out, but on the few occasions Ali landed on Foreman they were mostly good shots... perfectly placed and spaced out. I also agree about Camacho. He certainly was guilty of the PPF's later in his career. I remember seeing some of his early fights, and he had that incredible ability to punch lightning fast, with power in both hands.
Re: Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Have to disagree with both Oscar and Joe being pity patt combo artists. Oscar was like Roy, where they would throw combos and vary the power and speed to throw the other fighter off and open them up. Joe had bad hands towards the end, so he had to be more cautious and selective as to when he would throw the hard shots.
Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom was the first fighter I recall throwing what we used to refer to as "shoe shine" combos. Ray Leonard used the shoe shine flurry to steal the fight vs. Hagler, but prior to that Ray would put some heat on those combos, so I don't really see him as a pitty pat guy.
Camacho, later in his career, turned into a PPF guy, but you saw how ineffective that was vs. Chavez, Oscar, and Tito. Great analogy/example using the Toney/Body Snatcher fight, and to a degree the Ali-Foreman fight. Ali's chin and conditioning allowed him to hang on to stop an exhausted foreman. That being said, if George had paid even a little attention to pace, he dominates Ali and wins the fight (shows how great Ali was at getting in people's heads).
As much as it pains me ;D Oscar had combination legitimacy. I voted against him and that golden express massive hype since debut at the Forum but his left hook and fairly fast hands at best shook or dropped most when he was top notch. He was a tenacious attacker early on. Mosley looked sturdiest as he often did but pre fools errand of chasing 160 lbs and aftermath, Oscar would get any fighters respect.
