Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos

[Gandalf]

C'mon. He didn't get slapped not even once during that PPF. He was covering up, but was by no means a defenseless victim.
Not to mention Manfredo was crap and should've never lasted that long in the first place.

When has Cotto ever managed to throw more than 60 punches a round. He could have used some Calxaghe fairy dust against Mayweather. It wins fights. All this plod plod plod 3 punches at a time shit is predictable. You can't throw with a Calzaghe windmill. GOAT.

[J_Undisputed]

I think sometimes it depends on the fighter. For instance, I watch Lomachenko throw flurries but you can tell that he varies the forces on the punches. Some seem to be designed to get his opponents to turn into the harder punches or blind them from seeing the harder punches.

Some guys are just soft touches. They are not blessed with the power to put a guy out. So I don't mind flurries if that's all the guy has, but for love of God, at least work on the accuracy and defense, so it looks intended on finishing a fight and not premeditated with the judges or referee in mind. Nothing worse than a guy that pitty pats you and then clinches you and then tries to throw real punches where its safe (like ward). Or pitty pats you and then gets on his bike with his hands up and out while circling you from 5 feet out. Pernell didnt really have that power, but i still never got tired of watching him.

I know i've had enough of the posturing for judges/ref, when i get to the point in a fight where im saying to myself... "If this was in an alley instead of ring... that guy would be dead by now..."

[Spicoli]

When I think of pitty pat punchers or flurry & flee types it also comes down to mentality and approach. Speedy rapid fire is fun to watch even if it's more clean than it is actually hurting. Head snapping sweat flying and cuts opening pitty pat and volume works, defensive minded elusive and the hands are as fast as the feet. I can handle that. But when it gets to some flurry punchers they wear it and are punching from the backseat. Camacho made a second career of it and Mayweather even wore the facial grimace, Nerf ball flurry and get away! But both and most in flurry mode could sit down power in spots to get respect and reset the table. Virgil Hill lived on flurry feather dusters and getting out but still has two of the most impressive first round ko's I've seen. As big a wanker as Oscar was and continues to be he had good power mix in his combos. Guys like McCullough, Juan Diaz or Dorsey were pure volume with little pop but their approach made them fun. Tim Bradley? Now Sam Soliman or Cory Spinks have struck me as swatting flies after a six'er.

[TitoFan]

C'mon. He didn't get slapped not even once during that PPF. He was covering up, but was by no means a defenseless victim.
Not to mention Manfredo was crap and should've never lasted that long in the first place.

When has Cotto ever managed to throw more than 60 punches a round. He could have used some Calxaghe fairy dust against Mayweather. It wins fights. All this plod plod plod 3 punches at a time shit is predictable. You can't throw with a Calzaghe windmill. GOAT.

Quality > Quantity

Especially if the quantity involves scores of PPF's. I thought Cotto did more than a respectable job against Mayweather. Certainly better than most of Floyd's recent opponents. He pressed Mayweather and made him work... bloodied his nose. No PPF's there. It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. You're a fan of the Pitty Pat Flurries. I prefer meaningful punches. Windmills are for sissies.

[Gandalf]

C'mon. He didn't get slapped not even once during that PPF. He was covering up, but was by no means a defenseless victim.
Not to mention Manfredo was crap and should've never lasted that long in the first place.

When has Cotto ever managed to throw more than 60 punches a round. He could have used some Calxaghe fairy dust against Mayweather. It wins fights. All this plod plod plod 3 punches at a time shit is predictable. You can't throw with a Calzaghe windmill. GOAT.

Quality > Quantity

Especially if the quantity involves scores of PPF's. I thought Cotto did more than a respectable job against Mayweather. Certainly better than most of Floyd's recent opponents. He pressed Mayweather and made him work... bloodied his nose. No PPF's there. It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. You're a fan of the Pitty Pat Flurries. I prefer meaningful punches. Windmills are for sissies.

I think Cotto did well too, but imagine if in some of the those rounds he had the capacity to throw 100 punches and give Mayweather even less room to breathe. The fight would have been his. It's easy to diss Calzaghe but he landed a lot more than anyone could land on him. Cotto could have used some of that pixie dust. It wins fights. That GIF of Calzaghe is picking and choosing. You could easily find one against Lacy where 8 out of 10 land. They are punches that bloody noses and cut eyes too.

[TitoFan]

C'mon. He didn't get slapped not even once during that PPF. He was covering up, but was by no means a defenseless victim.
Not to mention Manfredo was crap and should've never lasted that long in the first place.

When has Cotto ever managed to throw more than 60 punches a round. He could have used some Calxaghe fairy dust against Mayweather. It wins fights. All this plod plod plod 3 punches at a time shit is predictable. You can't throw with a Calzaghe windmill. GOAT.

Quality > Quantity

Especially if the quantity involves scores of PPF's. I thought Cotto did more than a respectable job against Mayweather. Certainly better than most of Floyd's recent opponents. He pressed Mayweather and made him work... bloodied his nose. No PPF's there. It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. You're a fan of the Pitty Pat Flurries. I prefer meaningful punches. Windmills are for sissies.

I think Cotto did well too, but imagine if in some of the those rounds he had the capacity to throw 100 punches and give Mayweather even less room to breathe. The fight would have been his. It's easy to diss Calzaghe but he landed a lot more than anyone could land on him. Cotto could have used some of that pixie dust. It wins fights. That GIF of Calzaghe is picking and choosing. You could easily find one against Lacy where 8 out of 10 land. They are punches that bloody noses and cut eyes too.

But you see that's the thing. I don't think just because Cotto would throw 100 punches a round doesn't necessarily mean he would've been effective against Mayweather. These punches are not thrown in a vacuum. The other guy is doing things himself to make you stop throwing punches and assume a defensive position. Trying to boil down boxing to volumes of punches only is simplistic. Sure, you can always make a case for more punches... and sometimes as fans we're there saying "Why isn't he getting off more?" But we're couch fighters, watching from the comfort of our TV room. The GIF of Calzaghe I'm sure wasn't representative of ALL his flurries. But I still think both he and DLH were masters at the deceptive flurries designed to impress the judges and nothing else.

[Gandalf]

Pitty pat punches wouldn't be causing damage like this. Just because Calzaghe is too fast to see properly, he is still accumulating and accumulating and damage gets done. You contrast it with someone throwing 50 punches a round. Maybe they cause some damage, maybe not, but the other guy is likely keeping up with you with a workrate like that. With a 80-100 punches, nobody is keeping up with you. That's what lost Cotto the Mayweather fight, not enough work to make it clear. He did do well though in winning some rounds, but he only threw 40 punches a round. That's pretty low.

[TitoFan]

Didn't say ALL his punches were pitty-pat. The Lacy fight was arguably one of his best performances. But consider he was fighting a guy who was head-hunting... had horrible leg movement... and Calzaghe practically took him to school. Lacy is not to be confused with Mayweather or anything near that level. When you throw 100 punches per round, many are going to miss. But the judges will credit you with the awesome volume, regardless of the connect rate.... or the force of the punch. Again, Calzaghe totally dominated Lacy. But that doesn't change the fact that he was prone to the PPF, and many of his combinations in other fights were more slaps than punches. Judges fall for the flashy hands. Oscar did it too, and was a master at it. He conned his way into a victory over Ike Quartey with those techniques.

[Gandalf]

How is it conning anyone when you outland the other guy by between 100-300 punches? Hopkins is perhaps a better Mayweather comparison in terms of slowing Calzaghe down, but he still got hit with with 232 punches out of 700. 300 more than what Cotto threw against Floyd. I think Calzaghe sometimes gets criticised unfairly as he wasn't like Malignaggi, he could still hurt and bust up opponents. Look at Lacy's face, the body shot that cut Kessler down, Jones Jr's face post round 6 etc. He threw and caused damage. He had the ability to keep fighters more than honest, but to win rounds convincingly the key is to dazzle so that there is no doubt. You can't do it with 40 punches a round and 6 key shots as there is every chance the other guy might do the same. You cannot compete with 80 punches and 25-30 of them getting through.

[Gandalf]

Maybe Oscar did some conning, but I don't know about that. My field is more Calzaghe really.

[TitoFan]

You're veering off course, Miles. The thread isn't about comparing JC's volume of punches with anyone else's. We all know volume punching was Joe's trademark. The thread is about effective punching vs. useless flurries designed not to hurt but to impress. I didn't say JC did it all the time. But he did do it. Against Manfredo... against BHop... it was just one of his techniques. Different fighters have different styles. Some try to overwhelm you with volume. Others pick and choose their spots. They may not throw 1000 punches per round... but the mere 50 they throw they make them count. Again, beauty, the eye of the beholder, and all that.

I also mentioned the timing of these flurries. Oscar was pretty adept at doing them toward the end of rounds, in order to try and steal the round. Again... it's a technique. If it sways the judges, more power to you.