Beterbiev's career is still in progress & he's only had 19 fights but I'm interested in where others see him at this stage:
All time at 175
H2H against the best men of 175
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Beterbiev's career is still in progress & he's only had 19 fights but I'm interested in where others see him at this stage:
All time at 175
H2H against the best men of 175
It is too early to say where Beterbiev would rank until he has finished his career. Artur can improve his record and legacy by beating Bivol and becoming undisputed. He can also improve his bank balance by beating Canelo at the weight as well as defending his title a few more times.
If he becomes undisputed then Beterbiev should be in the conversation about being an ATG.
At the moment his best win is against Gvozdyk who was undefeated and WBC champion. He has had 7 defences and his fight against Yarde was FOTY contender. It is the best fight this year so far.
The great light heavyweights are Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles Bob Foster and Spinks but can not say how Artur would do against them as I never saw them fight in my lifetime.
The best light heavyweight I have seen has been Roy Jones Jnr at the weight and I think he would be too quick for Beterbiev.
Artur v Stevenson would have been a good fight and peak Kovolev as well as Moorer.
I think Beterbiev beats Ward, B Hop and Tarver.
Ward would pulverize beterbievs balls into submission
Beterbiev hasn’t proved he’s the best guy in this division yet. So I think it’s a bit premature to talk about ATG’s.
roy v artur would be intriguing. roy's speed gives him the edge for me but artur's pressure causes roy grief all night. at the moment without becoming undisputed i'd find it hard to put artur anyway near the top twenty light heavyweights ever, although i think he matches up well with many of them. outside the very best at light heavyweight, imagine fights with guys like dariusz michalczewski or matthew saad muhammad
Maybe if Betebiev defeats Bivol we can revisit the threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
It's still nice to think about how Beterbiev matches up against past ATG's
Conn vs Beterbiev is a toss up
Foster vs Beterbiev is also a toss up
Jones Jnr vs Beterbiev is a toss up, Jones' speed & stamina make him the favourite but he had a tendancy to go to the ropes, that could give Beterbiev the opportunity he would need
Got to think Jones and ward run rings around beterbiev, beterbiev is a monster puncher but he's not difficult to hit, Ward would have fun with him and have an easier time against him than Kovalev, who should have beaten ward the first time. Jones would be far too quick and athletic for him too.. I'd rate Kovalev ahead of beterbiev too, although those guys had their run ins the amateur days and beterbiev beat Kovalev a few times.
There are a lot of exciting fights that would have been "barn burners" against peak fighters like Matthew Saad Muhammad, Qawi, Marvin Johnson, Conteh and Prince Charles Williams.
Beterbiev definitely has legacy to take with Bivol showdown. I think there are times when Beterbiev gets a little dismissed as face forward brawler but his calculated timing, power selection and sheer awkward accuracy has to be some of the best at 175 in decades. Some great hypotheticals mentioned and need full concluded picture for the all time greats like Moore, Charles etc. Qawi would have been insane and Galindez or Saad style wise. More recently Roy of course. But being honest and peeling the skin off the onion here..what force did Roy face and beat at 175 who was remotely close to current Beterbiev? And it's not like he was untouchable at 175 also. Would have been an outstanding mash up. I'm just glad 175 is finally getting some volume and center focus.
I don't think Ward would have the strength to match Beterbiev inside & would get broken downQuote:
Originally Posted by palmerq
Kovalev had a piston of a jab & better boxing ability but I feel he lacked the mental fortitude to outlast Beterbiev
I could see Tarver & Hopkins lasting the distance in losing efforts
I don't know, ward was really something special a, beterbiev is a monster butbward could do it all, sure it was at 168 but he beat big tough guy Froch at his own game, beat him up and totally outboxed him, I think the same thing would happen to beterbiev, ward moved very well had enough power and most importantly knew how to rough them up. id think he has an easier time v beterbiev than he did v kovalev
I like Andre Ward at super middleweight but he was not big enough to continue his career at light heavyweight. He was fortunate against Kovalev to win, sure Ward showed heart to comeback after the knock down and get the decision. Punching Beterbiev low would not work against him.
Ward retired early at the weight for a reason.
talking of all time great light heavyweights, does anyone know if fight footage of maxie rosenbloom exists? i think joe calzaghe puts a lacy like performance on artur
Never heard of him but will look him up. Got me intrigued.Quote:
Originally Posted by TIC
really, cus d'amato gave him high praise & is said to be the inspiration behind the technique that became the pee-a-boo styleQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterNever heard of him but will look him up. Got me intrigued.Quote:
Originally Posted by TIC
Ward would’ve beaten Beterbiev 7 days a week and twice on Sundays. And I don’t know where you get that he wasn’t big enough to fight at LHW? He was a natural LHW that boiled down to SMW to give him the best chance of getting a World title before moving up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ward’s only problem was outside the ring where he was probably arrogant enough to think that he was smarter than the sharks that exist and consequently fucked his career up relatively speaking.
Bad decisions, bad contracts, stubbornness, all things that can be labelled at Ward, but could’ve been “the one”
Ward really struggled with a prime Kov so he would struggle with Beterbiev who I would argue was better. If he was a natural light heavyweight then he did not have the power to deter Beterbiev.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraWard would’ve beaten Beterbiev 7 days a week and twice on Sundays. And I don’t know where you get that he wasn’t big enough to fight at LHW? He was a natural LHW that boiled down to SMW to give him the best chance of getting a World title before moving up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ward’s only problem was outside the ring where he was probably arrogant enough to think that he was smarter than the sharks that exist and consequently fucked his career up relatively speaking.
Bad decisions, bad contracts, stubbornness, all things that can be labelled at Ward, but could’ve been “the one”
Ward had a tough time for about six rounds v kovalev then worked it out and then pretty much owned him for the next 14 rounds and broke him, he did beat kovalev twice remember, well once really...
The first fight was a close controversial decision and Ward was losing the 2nd fight before he punched Kov in the balls. He should have been disqualified.Quote:
Originally Posted by palmerq
i had andre losing the first by a point & behind by a point in the second before the fouls. andre had sergey hurt in that second fight but sergey should have been given time to recover from the low blows at the very least with a point taken from andre. andre was lucky not to be disqualifiedQuote:
Originally Posted by palmerq
Oddly enough, exact same on the two fights from what I recall. Not sure about possible DQ. It's just weird thinking Ward going full 175 vs a peaked Beterbiev especially when other than Kovalev scratch and claw wins, his biggest 175 scalp was the terribly weight withered and drained down Dawson. I just always think of Ward at 175 as a bit inconclusive. Superb talent but he would get the physical inside fight of his life with Beterbiev.Quote:
Originally Posted by TICi had andre losing the first by a point & behind by a point in the second before the fouls. andre had sergey hurt in that second fight but sergey should have been given time to recover from the low blows at the very least with a point taken from andre. andre was lucky not to be disqualifiedQuote:
Originally Posted by palmerq
Really, ward took the life and soul from kovalev in the second fight, totally broke him and kovalev wanted out and even though it was a punch to the balls kovalev clearly had had enough and he did just stop fighting when the ref stopped it.. kovalev won the first battle in my opinion but ward won the war, a third fight and ward would have dispelled any doubt.. kovalev was a total monster at this time too... Imagine a guys only claim to fame at 175 is beating kovalev in his prime!
Either way i rate pro kovalev above pro beterbiev, kovalev was a bit quicker and more mobile both were super destructive to be fair but I just see ward having a pretty easy time v beterbiev, he's a monster for sure but he's having a tough time v yards and was nearly cleaned out by Callum Johnson, this just isn't ward or rjj level.
Beterbiev beat the undefeated Gvozdyk, who had beaten Adonis Stevenson who was a champion himself for a very long time, and unified the titles is better than what Ward did at the weight.
NOBODY Tested Ward in his career! Not at SMW, not at LHW. when did you see Ward wobble? When did you see Ward even lose a round against someone of Yarde’s level ? (No disrespect to Yarde.)
Ward NEVER EVER looked in danger of losing a fight for one second.
Andre Ward had a bloodied nose after the first round against Kov just from the jab and the look on his face was "what the hell have I got myself into here". The second round he was knocked down from a crushing right hand and he thought "what am I doing on the floor here?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
Andre Ward got up and fought on pride alone and got himself back into the fight but he was certainly tested by Kov in both fights and was fortunate to win.
I felt the knock down lost him the 1st Kovalev fightQuote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
I'm not sure what you mean by wobble, he took a big shot against Boone that put him down & the shot Kovalev landed on him in the 1st fight to drop him sounded like he got hit by a bat. Ward getting back up from those 2 shots showed his heart
With respect to Yarde & Ward, Beterbiev is 38. Ward was done by 33
I also felt Ward should have got some warnings in the 1st Kovalev fight for his dirty tactics. Can't blame Ward though if the ref ain't going to do anything
Peach of an uppercut too. Boone had Ward out on his feet and holding on for life to make the rounds end. Pretty sure Ward was wobbled in his 2nd or 3rd start too. Crazy thing is the same Boone dropped and hurt Kovalev also. losing a very controversial decision in their first fight. But in fairness so many 'top' guys get buzzed coming up and it tends to get overlooked as they've gone on to overcome bigger challenges. I mean Beterbiev was dropped by a Jeff Page but then goes on to be within 1 fight of full unification. Every time we hear a top star talked about as "never hurt never down" it's taken with a grain of salt and skepticism. Small struggle with fighter C or B does not always equate to the same with fighter A.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big JI felt the knock down lost him the 1st Kovalev fightQuote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
I'm not sure what you mean by wobble, he took a big shot against Boone that put him down & the shot Kovalev landed on him in the 1st fight to drop him sounded like he got hit by a bat. Ward getting back up from those 2 shots showed his heart
With respect to Yarde & Ward, Beterbiev is 38. Ward was done by 33
I also felt Ward should have got some warnings in the 1st Kovalev fight for his dirty tactics. Can't blame Ward though if the ref ain't going to do anything
And at the time the failure of Kovalev vs Stevenson getting made was an indicator of things to come. That was THE super fight fans wanted and the division needed, but no luck. I'll never forget Kovalev standing ring center post fight looking at Stevenson and calling him chicken shit in broken English and holding his middle finger up for Adonis ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
I didn’t word my post particularly well, but I didn’t see the look on Ward’s face you saw! It was a flash knockdown and Ward was smiling at him. From then on in that fight and the second one, Ward gradually made the adjustments he had to make, he took over and he stole Kovalev’s soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterAndre Ward had a bloodied nose after the first round against Kov just from the jab and the look on his face was "what the hell have I got myself into here". The second round he was knocked down from a crushing right hand and he thought "what am I doing on the floor here?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
Andre Ward got up and fought on pride alone and got himself back into the fight but he was certainly tested by Kov in both fights and was fortunate to win.
The low punch didn’t make any difference to how the second fight would’ve finished.
And the Darnell Boone knockdown that others mentioned is ridiculous really. It was a 6 rounder with 2 guys swinging like a rusty gate.
“Bloodied Nose!” ;D;D Fucks sake man.
The knockdown against Kovalev was more than a flash knockdown. Just because Ward smiled doesn't mean he wasn't hurt. You're actually taking credit away from Ward for getting back up from that shot
I'm with you that the low punches didn't make any difference to how the second fight would have finished
Why is mentioning the Boone fight & knockdown ridiculous? You asked: When did you see Ward wobble? & When did you see Ward even lose a round against someone of Yarde’s level?
I provided an example of when I saw Ward wobble, I saw Ward wobble back from the uppercut Boone landed as he fell
It could be debated but I'd consider Boone & Yarde comparable in level, so I also saw Ward lose a round against someone of Yarde's level
Dismissing the Boone fight because it was a 6 rounder is moving the goal posts from your original questions
Excellent, this is a great line of argument, I approve. Yarde and Boone at the same level!.. so now we've got beterbiev in his 7th title defence losing rounds to a guy on the same level as someone ward was beating in his 7th pro fight.
artur beterbiev would have abused andre ward. it would have been as one sided as a gang rape
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceSrZ6tBfSU
I was responding to the question that was asked about Ward losing a round to someone of Yarde's level. If you want to debate that Yarde is a higher or lower level to Boone we can do that but your reply has nothing to do with the question I replied toQuote:
Originally Posted by palmerq
Well It has nothing to do with the question you replied to because I wasn't responding to the ambling alp... Anyway why would I want to debate Yarde and Boone I was agreeing with you!
artur had already beaten a former world champion by his seventh fightQuote:
Originally Posted by palmerq
I'm gonna go with it being a wash ;D and chalk it up as both Ward and Beterbiev were 1 year into career give or take a few months as pros. Both got 'touched' in their 7th fight but won. But Yarde quite possibly will never compare to Boone in big name wins and moments. But Beterbiev still beats Ward at 175..hypothetically ;D. Of course.
If Boone was the money man he'd have beaten them all and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
So my revised rankings
Rjj
Boone
Ward
Kovalev
In the words of his camp and wide eyed trainer..."we wuz robbed...a lot"! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by palmerq
You guys forget that SOG was a bigger draw than Arthur, he would have fought Beterbiev in his backyard, dragged him at SM and he would have Dawsoned him.
Beterbiev is a very good fighter, tough as nails and an excellent finisher …. But he has slow feet, fights square on and is relatively easy to hit.
I think Michael Spinks beats him every time. His jerky jerky style was hard to time, very solid technically while being weirdly unorthodox and a crushing right hand. Very good chin at LHW too.